Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Again......total misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

Can you perform brain surgery? It is among ALL things!
Can you tear down and reassembly a gasoline engine? It is among all things!
Can you explain why we "yawn". It is among ALL things!
Cab you explain why the Chorioactis mushroom grows only in Texas and Japan.?
Can you explain why Saturn storm system the size of two Earths in the curious shape of a hexagon.

Words have meanings and I am just holding you to your own.

I do not know the answers to those questions and a whole lot more....but if I wanted to know I would go to work with the brain God gave me and find out.

What you are saying reminds me of what an old professor once told me...........
"God never said to take your brain out and leave it on the door step when you go to church"!

This is a good example of people who have no answer to scripture so they attack the person with nonsensical jibberish.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I just said that. Please, instead of simply repeating what I said, answer my question.

Ok. What is your question again please?

 

[Randy]

According to your own words here, you are a self taught Christian. That is wonderful and you are free to post your opinions.

However, In the biblical context, repentance is recognizing that our sin is offensive to God. Repentance can be shallow, such as the remorse we feel because of fear of punishment or it can be deep, such as realizing how much our sins cost Jesus Christ and how his saving grace washes us clean as done with Paul.

In all of my teaching, learning and preaching, I have never heard it said that "Repentance is turning from Satan". I guess that is one of those theological items only told to you.

Calls for repentance are found throughout the Old Testament, such as Ezekiel 18:30:

Ezekiel 18:30 is pretty clear...........
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall."

Words like "turn," "return," "turn away," and "seek," are used in the Bible to express the idea of repentance and issue the invitation to repent. The prophetic call for repentance is a loving cry for men and women to return to dependence on God:

Hosea 6:1 is an example......
"Come, let us return to the LORD; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and he will bind us up."

Before Jesus began his earthly ministry, John the Baptist was on the scene preaching repentance—the heart of John's mission and message was Repent.

God's love is so great He even grants one that repentance. Grace!
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[JLB]

The position is: justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

I think this is the post you wanted me to address.


To me, and many others, this position is very contradictory.

Grace alone means grace without anything else.

How can it be grace “alone” and then also be faith “alone”?

If you want people to understand your position, then post a scripture and explain your position from the words of scripture.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8

Because I don’t agree with your “position” and show you why, from the scriptures, doesn’t mean I’m presenting a “strawman”.

Please try to explain your position of faith alone, which means faith by itself, in a different way, so that all the people who disagree with you can understand what you mean.

Make sure you use scripture.

 

[Rodger]

God's love is so great He even grants one that repentance. Grace!
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

You lost me. I have no idea what you are saying.

I agree that God's love is so great that He grants us all grace because we certainly do not deserve it.

You said........
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful" is a quote from 2 Timothy 2:24-25. May I say to you that these words echo the timeless wisdom of prioritizing kindness and patience in leadership. Just as James urges us to be slow to anger, this verse underscores the value of maintaining a gentle spirit in the face of adversity.

Now, I hope that you realize that Christian Forums are much different than talking one on one to someone in person. Most all people on forums take on a different persona than they actually are hence the strange made up call names.

It is 100% true that We can respond to difficult people with gentleness by remembering that our goal is not to win arguments or prove our point, but to show love and understanding. The problem with that is that "most" are actually on forums to prove their biased agenda at any cost and are not here to "learn" and grow.

Instead of responding with harsh words or trying to force our opinions on others, we can choose to respond with kindness and patience. However, because we are all human and have a sin nature, we come to a point when it is better to leave a conversation than stay and argue over things that mean nothing.

Creating an atmosphere of peace and open communication can ultimately lead to reconciliation and understanding "IF" the people involved have a desire to learn what the Bible says instead of what they believe what some person has told them.

Absolutely correct! However, I hope that you are not suggesting that un-biblical teaching be allowed
without be challenged by the Word of God. If so, that would be a major mistake and un-biblical!

 

[Rodger]

This is a good example of people who have no answer to scripture so they attack the person with nonsensical jibberish.

I have withdrawn from this conversation however I need to say thatIn post #1398, your exact words were...........
"He will teach you all things.
Did you get that?

I said to you that words have meanings and when you said...."He will teach you all things"---

I understood you to be saying what you literally meant to say. So now I guess you are implying that you really did not mean "He will teach you ALL things".

This conversation is over for me. !!!

 

[JLB]

He will teach you ALL things".

He will teach you all things is exactly what I said and meant.

This is the promise of the New Covenant.

 

[Free]

I think this is the post you wanted me to address.

It wasn't, but yes, you also didn't address that one.

To me, and many others, this position is very contradictory.

Only to those who are intent on not listening and not wanting to understand.

Grace alone means grace without anything else.

How can it be grace “alone” and then also be faith “alone”?

If you want people to understand your position, then post a scripture and explain your position from the words of scripture.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8

That is the exact verse I've given numerous times, and I'm not the only one. It is mind boggling how you can say "this position is very contradictory," referring to my statement that "justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone," But then go on to provide a verse that says that exact thing: "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

As I've explained several times previously, salvation is entirely of God, from beginning to end, and as such is only by his grace. It is entirely by his goodness and something that we do not deserve and cannot work for:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (ESV)

This grace can be received only through faith in Christ and his work, not through a single work of our own.

Because I don’t agree with your “position” and show you why, from the scriptures, doesn’t mean I’m presenting a “strawman”.

Yes, I know.

 

[Rodger]

It wasn't, but yes, you also didn't address that one.


Only to those who are intent on not listening and not wanting to understand.


That is the exact verse I've given numerous times, and I'm not the only one. It is mind boggling how you can say "this position is very contradictory," referring to my statement that "justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone," But then go on to provide a verse that says that exact thing: "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

As I've explained several times previously, salvation is entirely of God, from beginning to end, and as such is only by his grace. It is entirely by his goodness and something that we do not deserve and cannot work for:

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (ESV)

This grace can be received only through faith in Christ and his work, not through a single work of our own.


Yes, I know.

I am rather new here and please understand that I am in NO way interjecting my opinions into the Christian Forum business and web site you administer. I have noticed something that you are having to deal with and I see it in almost all Christian gatherings.

What it seems to me that is playing out here is one of the primary psychological forces called confirmation bias. It sounds worse than it is but what it is, is the need some people have to seek out, interpret, and even remember information in ways that confirm one’s pre-existing beliefs or desires.
Then, closely related to confirmation bias is something called motivated reasoning.
It is an action that involves someone reasoning through information in a way that serves his/hers motivations or desires rather than objective facts.

I have NO idea if this is helpful and you are welcome to ignore it all but it is obvious that people’s interpretations of the Bible can be shaped by biases, cultural conditioning, and emotional investment, sometimes leading them to accept certain beliefs without question and reject others with equal certainty.

That is why you see someone rooted in an obscure thought or teachings that is so clearly not Biblical that it becomes a silly circular conversation.

Consider JLB's recent conversation and insistence that we must "turn from Satan instead of turning from sin.

To anyone considering that, the concept of a personal devil as an external tempter offers a way to externalize evil, which can sometimes help people make sense of the world but may not align with the biblical presentation of “Satan” as a broader concept of opposition and temptation.

Motivated reasoning here demands a desire for reassurance and simplicity. Beliefs that are biased that provide a clear sense of comfort or moral structure can become deeply rooted, even when they don’t align correctly with a literal interpretation of Scripture wherein lies the problem.

It is a blessing to talk to you...God bless you on a difficult position!

 

[JLB]

Only to those who are intent on not listening and not wanting to understand.

Ok. Hopefully you will consider reading this scripture and understanding the words of Jesus and Paul.

Question:

If a person is not in the kingdom of God, then they are in the kingdom of Satan; the domain or dominion of darkness.

Reference Scriptures for the kingdom of Satan -

If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? Matthew 12:26

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son. Colossians 1:13 NASB

Agree or disagree?


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


Question:

If you are in the kingdom of Satan, who is your Lord?

Jesus or Satan?

 

[Free]

Ok. Hopefully you will consider reading this scripture and understanding the words of Jesus and Paul.

Question:

If a person is not in the kingdom of God, then they are in the kingdom of Satan; the domain or dominion of darkness.

Reference Scriptures for the kingdom of Satan -

If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? Matthew 12:26

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son. Colossians 1:13 NASB

Agree or disagree?


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


Question:

If you are in the kingdom of Satan, who is your Lord?

Jesus or Satan?

Agree and Satan. What does this have to do with anything I've stated? I'm not interested in playing games. Just put your point forward and show clearly what it has to do with what I've said.

 

[Randy]

You lost me. I have no idea what you are saying.

I agree that God's love is so great that He grants us all grace because we certainly do not deserve it.

You said........
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful" is a quote from 2 Timothy 2:24-25. May I say to you that these words echo the timeless wisdom of prioritizing kindness and patience in leadership. Just as James urges us to be slow to anger, this verse underscores the value of maintaining a gentle spirit in the face of adversity.

Now, I hope that you realize that Christian Forums are much different than talking one on one to someone in person. Most all people on forums take on a different persona than they actually are hence the strange made up call names.

It is 100% true that We can respond to difficult people with gentleness by remembering that our goal is not to win arguments or prove our point, but to show love and understanding. The problem with that is that "most" are actually on forums to prove their biased agenda at any cost and are not here to "learn" and grow.

Instead of responding with harsh words or trying to force our opinions on others, we can choose to respond with kindness and patience. However, because we are all human and have a sin nature, we come to a point when it is better to leave a conversation than stay and argue over things that mean nothing.

Creating an atmosphere of peace and open communication can ultimately lead to reconciliation and understanding "IF" the people involved have a desire to learn what the Bible says instead of what they believe what some person has told them.

Absolutely correct! However, I hope that you are not suggesting that un-biblical teaching be allowed
without be challenged by the Word of God. If so, that would be a major mistake and un-biblical!

I'm stating God grants repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth which is grace not our works.
God gives a heart of flesh.

Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

(context obedience not works)-Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His/Gods commands.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed

All these go hand and hand. We are saved by grace through faith and we are not free to sin. A righteousness that is from first to last by faith. “The righteous will live by faith.”

Now if the Spirit of Christ in in you then you are one with Christ/God. In Him there is no sin nor can any sin exist. Now one who has no sin cannot be considered unrighteous. A continuous state of righteousness exists with being one with Christ/God. And we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code.

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Grace through faith with the fruit of obedience.

In a manner of speaking the new covenant has curses and blessings like the first covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

You also can't interpret scripture, and is the reason why you think Judas Iscariot was born of God, or worse, you claim to know what Jesus thought by saying "Jesus considered him to be an apostle." Except you put on fig leaves by your disclaimer "only God can determine..." Your response is rife with error.

I'm sure you don't mean what you say,

Sir,
Let me assure you that I mean what I say and say what I mean.
If you don't agree, that's fine with me.
You are most definitly entitled to your opinion.
Be it right or be it wrong.

And I don't CLAIM to know what Jesus taught.
We can know what Jesus taught by reading the words He stated in the NT.

If you feel you cannot understand them,,,I'm sorry for you.

since you use terms wrongly, for example you said, "Only God can determine who is saved and who is not." I'm sure you actually mean that only God knows, since you think that people have "free will" (according to your usage of it, meaning that people can choose good that God accepts apart from His action).

Actually,,,,as I've stated I DO mean what I say.
YES sir...
The NT teaches that salvation is offered to every person that has ever lived and they can
either choose to accept God or to reject Him.

But "only God can determine who is saved and who is not" is actually a statement of God's sovereignty

As with all Calvinists, you do not have a proper understanding of what SOVEREIGNTY means.
Some theological study would do you good....
Stop with systematic theology,,,
read the bible,,,,
and match everything you read in the bible so that there are no contradictions...
which Calvinism does create, BTW.

in man's individual salvation. This would be a correct statement, since God is the only one who can create a righteous person out of a sinner by gifting one with faith. This is how it is determined, and it is determined by God alone. But I'm sure you don't mean that, because you don't believe it.

You're amusing T.

Since you claim that "our free will" allows us to leave God's presence if we so choose, then I suppose you believe that Cain was also saved, and then got lost after he left God's presence. Even though John clearly says "his deeds were evil." But just as Cain's deeds were evil before he murdered his brother, in the same way Judas' deeds were evil before he betrayed Jesus. And their deeds being evil shows that they were a "bad tree" according to Jesus, and could not have been God's children.

Your statement "Satan does not snatch anyone out of God's hand" is moot, because it does not apply to Judas, who was never in God's hand. John clearly says that Satan entered into him, so Satan did indeed snatch Judas. Therefore, he was not in God's hand. In fact, Satan can snatch anyone not in God's hand, shown by the fact that Jesus said of His sheep, "no one can snatch them out of the Father's hand." This implies that one could snatch them away if they are not in God's hand. Judas was not in God's hand, therefore he got snatched.

Finally, you simply don't believe the scriptures that say, "the one born of God cannot continue sinning" (1 Jn. 3:9), and we "are kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Pet. 1:5), if you think by your "free will" you can leave Jesus, shipwreck your faith, and become apostate. If you can actually do this, then doesn't your faith come into question? Of course it does! It's because you still fear eternal condemnation and don't believe that Jesus put away that condemnation and nailed it to the cross. If you claim you do believe this, then you are implying that you can resurrect your sin by making yourself and your "free will" stronger than the Holy Spirit. And this would be nonsense.

I fully expect a rebuttal with your pet prooftexts, failing to address the points I raise, so I think I'll be done here.

No rebuttal T.
I don't have the time.
Sorry.

Keep on worrying about Judas....
this will surely help in your salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace through faith. Hebrews 11 by FAITH.....
By Faith one should seek baptism.

Of course.
But we were discussing FAITH ALONE.
Are we supposed to be baptized?

Then Faith is NOT ALONE.
It requires baptism.

Acts 8 Phillip and the eunuch. Though I think it's a forgone conclusion when the Spirit sent Phillip to the Eunuch God had chosen him for salvation beforehand.

You're going to have to post the scripture and show this to be true.
I don't consider FOREGONE CONCLUSIONS when I'm reading the bible.
I tend to read only what it states.

And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized? And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him

Rightly so.
Baptism is necessary, as is stated in the NT.
Mark 16:16 NASB
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

By Faith they lowered him through the roof before Jesus and Jesus took away his sins. I would assume later by faith he would seek baptism even though his sins were already forgiven.
Luke 5
But they could not find a way to take him in because of so many people. They made a hole in the roof over where Jesus stood. Then they let the bed with the sick man on it down before Jesus. 20When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

So actions prompted by faith but not works for the forgiveness of sins.

Are not all our works prompted by faith?
Do unbelievers do good works by faith?

I'm happy to hear that you ASSUMED that the healed man would later seek baptism.
You should, however, not ASSUME anything when reading scripture.
You will learn from it everything you need to know for your salvation.

You said we do not work for the forgiveness of sins...right.
Do we WORK for the forgiveness of sins or do we confess for forgiveness of sins?

Do you believe we are to obey Jesus?
Does Jesus command us to obey Him?
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Which commandments does Jesus tell us to keep?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm stating God grants repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth which is grace not our works.
God gives a heart of flesh.

Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

(context obedience not works)-Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His/Gods commands.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed

All these go hand and hand. We are saved by grace through faith and we are not free to sin. A righteousness that is from first to last by faith. “The righteous will live by faith.”

Now if the Spirit of Christ in in you then you are one with Christ/God. In Him there is no sin nor can any sin exist. Now one who has no sin cannot be considered unrighteous. A continuous state of righteousness exists with being one with Christ/God. And we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code.

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Grace through faith with the fruit of obedience.

In a manner of speaking the new covenant has curses and blessings like the first covenant.

I like this post Randy.
Your last sentence is 100% correct....
but is not believed by many Christians.