Is baptism required for salvation?

[Johann!@#]

so you don't believe the five sola's or faith alone!

Nope. But I do believe in/eis Christ Jesus and faith is not "alone"

J.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" but then he followed that with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." That leave open the question - what happens to those who believe but do not get baptised?

I think it depends on why they decline baptism. Some are badly taught and don't appreciate that it is in baptism that Jesus saves us (normally). But only God see that heart and knows if they are at fault in not accepting baptism; whether they are just misled or being disobedient (which is disbelief).

I have never in my 82 years known anyone who refused to be baptized. Why would they refuse it? I've been baptized three times because of different churches' regulations. For me, it was a celebration of God's gift of true faith.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

so you don't believe the five sola's or faith alone!

I don't believe in Calvinism or any doctrine that denies human agency, let's put it that way.

 

[Randy]

Don't forget the parable of the Sower. Some who seem to believe immediately may drop out when facing hardship, some who don't seem to believe may take a while for the seed of gospel to sprout. Besides, I wasn't arguing about who belongs to God and who doesn't, I was breaking down the meaning of "hear". In that context, not only do you "hear", you also listen, understand, believe and heed, it's not like you just hear it like background noises and then forget about it.

My point was in regard to infant baptism as viewed that the parents are dedicating their children to God and they therefore belong to God. I have known with certainty as far back as my memory goes Jesus lives. That certainty had to come from the Spirit of truth. It's the grace of God.

The Spirit is with one before He is in them. As Jesus testified that those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. It's grace.

Hearing God is believing in the truth.

Jesus testified He testified to the truth, yet they didn't believe Him. Why? Because they didn't belong to God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

My point was in regard to infant baptism as viewed that the parents are dedicating their children to God and they therefore belong to God. I have known with certainty as far back as my memory goes Jesus lives. That certainty had to come from the Spirit of truth. It's the grace of God.

No, it's dedication to the church community. Whether the infant belongs to God or not will be revealed by the spiritual fruits they bear, for a good tree cannot bear bad fruits, nor can a bad tree bear good fruits.

The Spirit is with one before He is in them. As Jesus testified that those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. It's grace.

Hearing God is believing in the truth.

Jesus testified He testified to the truth, yet they didn't believe Him. Why? Because they didn't belong to God.

Then regarding the second kind of soil and the third, do they hear God or not? I also know for certainly that only the first kind, the hard road doesn't hear at all, the stony soil and the thorny soil are up for debate.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and BAPTIZED.

That was after the conversation between Jesus and nicodemus

Show me in the conversation where Jesus told him
1. What must be done - Be born again
2. What it means - Born of flesh and spirit
3. How we are born again

Jn 3;23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were BAPTIZED.

Jn 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and BAPTIZED more disciples than John,

Again, this is not in context.

Can you show it in Jesus conversation to nicodemus, He told hiMm he must be born again and what it is and how.. Show where jesus told hm he must be baptized to be born again

 

[Eternally-grateful]

are they not all saved? they all had faith?

No

Actually only one group had faith the rest had mere belief

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Depends on your understanding of the parable of the Sower. Calvinists hold a very simplistic, naive black and white view, they only see two kinds, the saved and the unsaved; I on the other hand see four according to the parable of the Sower, only the first kind is an absolute lost cause, the second and the third - i.e. the stony soil and thorny soil - have potential. They do have faith, but their faith are dead without fruit.

Which means they did not have faith, it was lifeless. Hence why they produced no fruit

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Which means they did not have faith, it was lifeless. Hence why they produced no fruit

"Fruit" or lack thereof is a discipleship issue, not a salvation issue.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

"Fruit" or lack thereof is a discipleship issue, not a salvation issue.

No

Fruit is a byproduct of faith. If you have true faith. You will at least produce some fruit. Maybe not much

The people in the first three cases did not have faith, they had mere belief, their true faith was in the things they fell back to.

A dog returns to his vomit because he is still a dog.

A dog who is attached to the vine having been made new, is no longer a dog. He is a new creation in Christ. They do not return to their vomit. Because they are no longer by nature dogs. Who do what naturally comes to them Like eat ring vomit, or wallowing in the mire

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Fruit is a byproduct of faith. If you have true faith. You will at least produce some fruit. Maybe not much

Then it is a discipleship issue, as long as discipleship is a byproduct of salvation.

 

[Randy]

No, it's dedication to the church community. Whether the infant belongs to God or not will be revealed by the spiritual fruits they bear, for a good tree cannot bear bad fruits, nor can a bad tree bear good fruits.

Then regarding the second kind of soil and the third, do they hear God or not? I also know for certainly that only the first kind, the hard road doesn't hear at all, the stony soil and the thorny soil are up for debate.

Ok, well this is not fruitful conversation. I'm moving on.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Ok, well this is not fruitful conversation. I'm moving on.

Alright . May God bless you and shine upon you. Shalom.

 

[Randy]

Alright, good riddance. May God bless you and shine upon you. Shalom.

God has chosen me to see the righteous one. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. Count me blessed by God.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Then it is a discipleship issue, as long as discipleship is a byproduct of salvation.

But that is not the context.

the context is the 4 ways people respond to the gospel message

ONLY 1 received it in true saving faith.

the others did not. its why they fell away

 

[JLB]

2. What it means - Born of flesh and spirit

Natural birth - born of flesh = born of water

Spiritual birth - born of the Spirit

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Natural birth - born of flesh = born of water

Spiritual birth - born of the Spirit

yes

 

[donadams]

The Sacraments are NOT about man’s work. They are the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are how Christ dispenses grace to us and how we obtain union with God.

The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body.

Seated at the right hand of the Father" and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace.

They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church.

They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies.

Dogma:
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
162. The Sacraments of the New Covenant contain the grace which they signify, and bestow it on
those who do not hinder it.
163. The Sacraments work ex opere operato (simply by being done).
164. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant confer sanctifying grace on the receivers.
165. Three Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders, imprint a character, that is, an
indelible spiritual mark, and for this reason cannot be repeated.
166. The Sacramental Character is a spiritual mark imprinted on the soul.
167. The Sacramental Character continues at least until the death of its bearer.
168. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ.
169. There are Seven Sacraments of the New Law.
170. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind.
171. For the valid dispensing of the Sacraments it is necessary that the minister accomplish the
Sacramental Sign in the proper manner.
172. The minister must further have the intention at least of doing what the Church does.


Grace is free (Eph 2:8) but that doesn’t mean that we have no part to play in receiving grace.
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (Rom 5:1-2).
We have been given access to grace.

Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 6:1).
We have not only to access grace but we have to accept it.

God gives us grace for a purpose. He wants to make us holy, perfect.
[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:14)

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:48).
Being perfect is not just avoiding sinning but perfecting the virtues. For this we need grace.


God is not a doctrine or an emotion. We can’t participate in His life by believing something about Him or feeling something for Him. Joining in the life of God is something we must do. Union with God can only be achieved through activity. And from the beginning of the Christian faith, God has specified certain practices in which we are to participate with Him. Through these activities, He blends our lives with His. These special events are called sacraments…….they are God-designed and God-ordained.

 

[donadams]

more

A covenant requires an outward sign!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29

faith being alone "faith alone" is dead!

thks

 

[donadams]

That was after the conversation between Jesus and nicodemus

Show me in the conversation where Jesus told him
1. What must be done - Be born again
2. What it means - Born of flesh and spirit
3. How we are born again

Again, this is not in context.

Can you show it in Jesus conversation to nicodemus, He told hiMm he must be born again and what it is and how.. Show where jesus told hm he must be baptized to be born again

born again by water and the spirit

water is directly connected to being born again, they baptized!