Is believing/faith a work ?

[Fastfredy0]

I think you guys are getting lost in semantics and lack of definition.

I'm pretty sure even Calvinism teaches that believing in God is a condition for salvation.

Definition of "Conditional": Imposing, depending on, or containing a condition
Thus, salvation is conditioned (depends upon) having faith.
Example: Man goes to heavens gate and Moses says you can come in on condition (depending on) you have faith.
Conclusion: Yes, Calvinism and Arminianism both claim FAITH is a condition of faith.

You [Jethro] continue to promote salvation by works, by conditions, so you oppose grace.

He has made no claim that salvation is by works. Jethro correctly states FAITH IS CONDITIONAL and that's it.

Crux of the matter.
If one thinks the cause of salvation is exclusively themself via believing/free will (faith) then one believes one must do that WORK himself to be saved. (Definition of work: mental or physical action one takes to achieve a purpose.) So, if one thinks one independently from God must of their on power cause themself to believe it is a work. The law says one must believe to be saved and obeying the law is a work.
Question: So, how does the Calvinist explain how one is not saved by works if FAITH is a work?
Answer: The WORK of Faith is achieved by God. God causes one to believe. God is the "efficient cause" and we are the "instrumental cause". Like a nail going into wood. The nail is FAITH, the person is the hammer and God is the carpenter.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” ... The verse defines Faith as a work that is done by God.

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

He has made no claim that salvation is by works.

Anyone who conditions Salvation/Justification on what they do, is claiming them by works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Anyone who conditions Salvation/Justification on what they do, is claiming them by works.

Agreed. As I explained in detail already ...
1) faith is something done (work) which causes one to be saved.
2) faith is a condition of salvation (the condition is that you are saved if you believe and not saved if you don't believe. As I pointed out a condition is "a result that depends upon something")

Now, what I see as your misunderstanding is the proposition that "One is NOT saved by works". This statement lacks context.
It is true that one is not saved by ones own work (we can't have saving faith caused by oneself /'free will')
It is also true that one is saved by the work of God. (John 6:29)

So, we are not saved by our own work. We are saved by God's work. We are saved conditionally, the condition is that God selected a person before the foundation of the earth and then in time God does the work of giving one saving faith that saves the person. The faith is not God's faith, but our faith, the cause and work of saving faith is God.
This is part of Calvinism/reformed theology.

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed. As I explained in detail already ...
1) faith is something done (work) which causes one to be saved.
2) faith is a condition of salvation (the condition is that you are saved if you believe and not saved if you don't believe. As I pointed out a condition is "a result that depends upon something")

Now, what I see as your misunderstanding is the proposition that "One is NOT saved by works". This statement lacks context.
It is true that one is not saved by ones own work (we can't have saving faith caused by oneself /'free will')
It is also true that one is saved by the work of God. (John 6:29)

So, we are not saved by our own work. We are saved by God's work. We are saved conditionally, the condition is that God selected a person before the foundation of the earth and then in time God does the work of giving one saving faith that saves the person. The faith is not God's faith, but our faith, the cause and work of saving faith is God.
This is part of Calvinism/reformed theology.

Its nothing for you to explain. Its still remains, if anyone conditions their salvation on anything they do, its works. Whats to explain ?

 

[brightfame52]

If one is supposedly saved or justified after some action of theirs, like making a decision or what have you, that is salvation or justification by works and not grace. Whenever salvation is conditioned on a person doing is works !

25

 

[brightfame52]

If we say that God wont save an individual unless that individual accepts Christ or accepts Gods Grace, that's nothing short of promoting salvation by works, or salvation conditioned on what a person does, their act. See salvation is solely by Grace, its given and its received by the ones its given to by Grace. Grace isnt an offer, it sovereignly makes one alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A person doesn't need to accept whether or not God will make them alive or not. The dead lazarus wasn't offered to be made alive by Christ, he had no decision to make, it was Christs will alone and His Fathers that they may be glorified Jn 11:4

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Hence those who say that Grace must be accepted in order for God to save you, are making the final condition for salvation contingent on what a person does, its nothing but good old mans religion motivated by the spiritually dead carnal mind. Its salvation by works !26

 

[brightfame52]

Is believing Faith a work ? Yes because its doing something, and consequently if a person must do something prior to God granting them Salvation, then its not to be considered Salvation by Grace, but the opposite, salvation by works. Thats to say, salvation is being rewarded based on something you did !

 

[brightfame52]

If we condition Salvation/Justification based on our faith or believing, as some say of God in eternal election and foreknowledge, that God did see beforehand who would believe on Him, and Justified them based upon that, then that means God Justified us based upon some foreseen grace or goodness in us, which totally does away with being Justified freely by His Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

That's what makes faith/believing a meritorious work !

 

[brightfame52]

Another definition for works from a english dictionary:

Definition of works | Dictionary.com

Works definition at Dictionary.com, a free online dictionary with pronunciation, synonyms and translation. Look it up now!

www.dictionary.com

the deeds of a person, esp virtuous or moral deeds performed as religious acts works of charity

Now isn't ones act of believing the deed of a person ? Is believing a virtuous or moral or spiritual deed ? If so, and we believe our salvation depends on us doing that deed, it constitutes salvation by our works, our doing a deed. 27

 

[Cooper]

Another definition for works from a english dictionary:

Definition of works | Dictionary.com

Works definition at Dictionary.com, a free online dictionary with pronunciation, synonyms and translation. Look it up now!

www.dictionary.com

the deeds of a person, esp virtuous or moral deeds performed as religious acts works of charity

Now isn't ones act of believing the deed of a person ? Is believing a virtuous or moral or spiritual deed ? If so, and we believe our salvation depends on us doing that deed, it constitutes salvation by our works, our doing a deed. 27

Work is physical, shopping for someone for example, but faith is something else.

 

[brightfame52]

Work is physical, shopping for someone for example, but faith is something else.

Do you believe work is mental ?

 

[Cooper]

Do you believe work is mental ?

Would you describe love for someone as coming from the mind (mental), or from the heart (emotional)?
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Would you describe love for someone as coming from mind (mental), or from the heart (emotional)?
.

Is loving someone a”work?”

 

[Cooper]

Is loving someone a”work?”

I would say yes. I would say love is a work of the heart.

 

[rogerg]

Another definition for works from a english dictionary:

Definition of works | Dictionary.com

Works definition at Dictionary.com, a free online dictionary with pronunciation, synonyms and translation. Look it up now!

www.dictionary.com

the deeds of a person, esp virtuous or moral deeds performed as religious acts works of charity

Now isn't ones act of believing the deed of a person ? Is believing a virtuous or moral or spiritual deed ? If so, and we believe our salvation depends on us doing that deed, it constitutes salvation by our works, our doing a deed. 27

Correct brightfame52. Plus, the only faith that could bring salvation is one that has within it, righteousness. Only Christ's faith had/has righteousness and is righteous. Any faith produced by a man is of himself and is in himself, having no righteousness, and therefore, no merit whatsoever with God but only judgment.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Cooper]

Correct brightfame52. Plus, the only faith that could bring salvation is one that has within it, righteousness. Only Christ's faith had/has righteousness and is righteous. Any faith produced by a man is of himself and is in himself, having no righteousness, and therefore, no merit whatsoever with God but only judgment.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Let us read those two verses In modern English:-

God accepted us because of our faith. (Galatians 2:16)

God accepted me simply because of my faith in Christ. (Philippians 3:9)

Faith means “complete trust.”

 

[brightfame52]

Would you describe love for someone as coming from the mind (mental), or from the heart (emotional)?
.

Again, do you believe work is mental ?

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

the only faith that could bring salvation is one that has within it, righteousness. Only Christ's faith had/has righteousness and is righteous. Any faith produced by a man is of himself and is in himself, having no righteousness, and therefore, no merit whatsoever with God but only judgment.

Agreed, True God given Faith looks to and embraces Christ as our Righteousness, made so by God 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[brightfame52]

Let us read those two verses In modern English:-

God accepted us because of our faith. (Galatians 2:16)

God accepted me simply because of my faith in Christ. (Philippians 3:9)

Faith means “complete trust.”

Sounds like works to me.

 

[Cooper]

Sounds like works to me.

How is it work?