Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

Re:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world might be saved through him


I'd love you to give a URL of any commentator that agrees with the following statement you made:

I read the context of the chapter and Jesus is talking to Nicodemus (sp?) about being 'born again'. The verse itself says "God sent" and not "God will send" where a future tense would be needed if the verses were about the new world to come.
Two verses down (v.19) it speaks of the same"world" again: "Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." There are no people in the world to come that will "love the darkness [evil]; they're all in hell by then.

Anyways, love to have you supply a URL of any commentator that agrees with your NEW WORLD thesis... and if you could explain "people loving darkness" in the New World; that would be interesting also.

Aside: the word "world" in John 3:16-17 is one of 4ish major verses "free will" people use to deny Reformed theology, but your defense is new to me.

Let me revise a part of my prior reply because I didn't state it the way I wanted to. Was trying to eat breakfast while I was typing

Prior post:
"The problem with perceiving this world as the one that God "so loved" is that by His loving of it and sending Christ as its Saviour, He then can't destroy it as He has told us He would because Christ would be its Saviour, or conversely, He can't love it as He said He does and had accepted Christ's offering to save it and then destroy it - both can't be true -. But we know the answer to that because God only loves that which is justified by Christ, and that can only be the world to come not this world."

Revised:
The problem with perceiving this world as the one that God "so loved" is that by His loving of it and sending Christ as its Saviour, He then can't destroy it as He has told us He would because Christ would be its Saviour, or conversely, He can't hate it as He said He does and then not destroy it - both can't be true - so two different worlds must be in view, not one. But we know the answer to that because God only loves that which is justified by Christ, and that can only be the world to come not this world.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Keeping in mind the reason for this discussion ...
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world might be saved through him
You contend that the WORLD in this verse is the New World to come and I contend the WORLD refers to this one. (at least, that's my opinion)

According to the Bible however, it is complete within in itself and as such, is all that is needed for our spiritual understanding.

My point was to say your opinion is not supported by others (not that that means your wrong; just less likely). Seems God set aside teachers so I assume they have a purpose. I know they have enlightened me. Anyways, that's a tangential thought.

The problem with perceiving this world as the one that God "so loved" is that by His loving of it and sending Christ as its Saviour, He then can't destroy it as He has told us He would because Christ would be its Saviour, or conversely, He can't love it as He said He does and had accepted Christ's offering to save it and then destroy it - both can't be true. But we know the answer to that because God only loves that which is justified by Christ, and that can only be the world to come not this world.

Ah, I grant this is a difficulty. I believe your premise is the the word WORLD means "everyone without exception" and I believe this premise is false. I suggest other possible solutions for defining WORLD:
Solution1: Even if we assume WORLD does mean "everyone without exception"... The love of God varies according to the object. He loves Himself differently than the elect and love the elect differently that the non-elect, and the non-elect differently than His creation. Thus, He loves (where love is defined as a volition to favor) various objects different ways. So, God can say He loves Hitler and you. Now, He loves you as a adopted son and He loved (volition to favor) Hitler as in Matthew 5:45. My point is God and love everyone without exception qualitatively, though not quantitatively and thus WORLD could apply toe everyone without exception.

Solution 2: (My preferred solution). If you do a word study on WORLD you will find it is ambiguous. There are many verses where WORLD cannot mean everyone without exception. Romans 1:8, John 7:4, John 12:19 being 3 of many examples. Thus the word WORLD in John 3:17 (and 16) is not an issue as it does not necessarily mean "Everyone without exception".

My point is WORLD doesn't necessarily mean "everyone without exception" which alleviates your issue/premise IMO.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Yes, I agree that Christ's kingdom is not of the world that He lived in 2000 years ago. I agree the planet will be eventually destroyed and there will be a new heaven and earth. Not sure how this solves our dilemma of where or not the word WORLD in John 3:17 is current world as I contend or the NEW WORLD as you contend (assuming I have our contention right).


Finally regarding my statement:

I read the context of the chapter and Jesus is talking to Nicodemus (sp?) about being 'born again'. The verse itself says "God sent" and not "God will send" where a future tense would be needed if the verses were about the new world to come.
Two verses down (v.19) it speaks of the same"world" again: "Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." There are no people in the world to come that will "love the darkness [evil]; they're all in hell by then.

I don't see where you answered by points that I think show John 3:17 is speaking of current World (as I contend) as opposed to the New World (as you contend). The descriptions of WORLD do are not in sync with what we know of the NEW WORLD. Please explain:
1) the tense is wrong as in John 3:17 if WORLD is the NEW WORLD as you contend
2) John 3:19 speaks of the WORLD in which people love darkness. How do you explain should a people living in the WORLD TO COME?

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

The problem with perceiving this world as the one that God "so loved" is that by His loving of it and sending Christ as its Saviour, He then can't destroy it as He has told us He would because Christ would be its Saviour, or conversely, He can't love it as He said He does and had accepted Christ's offering to save it and then destroy it - both can't be true

Hi Roger, I have a question, and Im here to learn and understand on this matter. Did God promise to destroy this kosmos world or renovate it ? Is there a difference ?

 

[rogerg]

rogerg



Hi Roger, I have a question, and Im here to learn and understand on this matter. Did God promise to destroy this kosmos world or renovate it ? Is there a difference ?

My understanding is that He will destroy it and replace with a new one. I think that is to include everything created
in Genesis. However, I'm ready to consider other possibilities.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Rogerg

Keeping in mind the reason for this discussion ...
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world might be saved through him
You contend that the WORLD in this verse is the New World to come and I contend the WORLD refers to this one. (at least, that's my opinion)

The word WORLD spoken of a verse earlier says: 16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Premise1: The WORLD referred to in verse 16 is the same as the WORLD referred to in verse 17
Premise2: Verse 16 speaks of people who will not go to hell if they believe in Him
Premise3: No one in the New World will not believe in Christ. They all do and they aren't going to change their mind
Conclusion: the WORLD referred to in John 3:16 and 17 are the world be currently live in and not the NEW WORLD

 

[Fastfredy0]

My understanding is that He will destroy it and replace with a new one. I think that is to include everything created
in Genesis. However, I'm ready to consider other possibilities.

Agreed. No debate on that. That debate in my mind is whether the word WORLD in John 3:17 is the NEW WORLD or the current one.

 

[brightfame52]

My understanding is that He will destroy it and replace with a new one. I think that is to include everything created
in Genesis. However, I'm ready to consider other possibilities.

How do you understand Rom 8:20-23

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[rogerg]

Agreed. No debate on that. That debate in my mind is whether the word WORLD in John 3:17 is the NEW WORLD or the current one.

Fastfredy0,
Not trying to be argumentative, but if I understand you correctly, in your first reply you said you recognize a problem exists with Christ as the Saviour of a world that is going to be destroyed -- but that's exactly the core contradiction that must be reconciled if we are going to accept a one world POV - if we can't do that, then as far as I can see, it simply can't mean one (or the same) world. There is just no way around that. John 3:17, has "world" in it twice: once denoting that Christ didn't come to condemn it, and once that through Him it might be saved. But as with the other verses that I've included in my prior post make clear, this current world (insofar as it is defined in Genesis) WILL most definitely be destroyed - don't think there's any way around that.
I've noticed in other verses, that God will use the same word twice in a verse but each with a different intent, and without a distinction being made between the two, so on the surface, it seems that He is talking about the same thing, but I do not believe that is always the case. To make that determination, I believe we need to fall back upon the admonition that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation and look elsewhere for resolution. Off the top and possibly as a bad example (and one you may disagree with), in the verse below, the "believeth" pertains to the individual's faith, but the "faith" pertains to Christ's faith, not the individual's. That is, for those who have belief in Christ and "worketh not", Christ's faith had been counted to them for/as righteousness (hope that makes sense). It could appear that it is solely by the induvial. Many (most?) people I've discussed the verse with interpret it to mean it is by their faith - that righteousness is counted to them because of their faith, not by Christ's (I just picked the first example I could think of. There are many better ones.) I've found God used that technique in many other places in the Bible and I believe He also did with John 3:16 -17. Basically, it is that there are very often two levels being addressed in the in the same verse: the earthly and the spiritual.
Regarding 3:16, I think it is the world to come because that is the only world that God can love. The elect
being the "whosoever".
Regarding 3:17, God didn't send Christ to this world to condemn it, that was not His role. His role was to save the
chosen and world they must inhabit.
Sorry, I'm a little tired so can you be more explicit about the problem you see with the tenses, if you would.

[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I know I didn't address all of you concerns, but it is a big topic that could draw the whole Bible into the discussion.
So, I'll reread your posts when I'm a little more rested and alert and respond to them as my limited mental processing power permits.

 

[rogerg]

How do you understand Rom 8:20-23

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Sorry, brightfame52, unfortunately, I'm in one of my dense modes right now, would you mind please being a little
more specific regarding your question? thanks

 

[Fastfredy0]

Regarding 3:16, I think it is the world to come because that is the only world that God can love. The elect
being the "whosoever".
Regarding 3:17, God didn't send Christ to this world to condemn it, that was not His role. His role was to save the
chosen and world they must inhabit.

I understand the point you are making. It definitely is unique.
The usage of WORLD is a complicated subject. If you're interested you can read on ...

The word “kosmos,” and its English equivalent “world,” is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case. Thus it will be seen that “kosmos” has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament.

“Kosmos” is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 “God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth.”

“Kosmos” is used of the earth:

John 13:1 When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end.” “Depart out of this world” signifies, leave this earth.

Ephesians 1:4 “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

“Kosmos” is used of the world-system:

John 12:31 “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out”— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

“Kosmos” is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—”Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

“Kosmos” is used of humanity minus believers:

John 15:18 “If the world hates you [and it does], know that it has hated Me before it hated you. [only the unelect hate Christ. Believers do not “hate” Christ, so that “the world” here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ.]

Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world.” Here is another passage where “the world” cannot mean “you, me, and everybody,” for believers" will not be “judged” by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

“Kosmos” is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews:

Romans 11:12 “Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness.” Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, “the world” cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

“Kosmos” is used of believers only:

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [Since Jesus does not save all people in the world, that must refer to the elect]

John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life 16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world [“For” refers to believers of verse 15], that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

NIV -but to save the world through him.

ESV -that the world might be saved through him.

NLT -to save the world through him.

NKJV -that the world through Him might be saved.

NLT -to save the world through him.

First occurrence (v.17), is necessarily to be understood that part of the habitable world wherein our Savior conversed;

in the second occurrence (v.17), all men in the world, as some suppose (so also there is a truth in it, for our Savior came not to condemn all men in the world: for, first, condemnation of any was not the prime aim of his coming; secondly, he came to save his own people, and so not to condemn all);

in the third occurrence (v.17), God's elect, or believers living in the world, in their several generations, who were they whom he intended to save, and none else, or he faileth of his purpose, and the endeavor of Christ is insufficient for the accomplishment of that whereunto it is designed

John 4:42 for [now] we have heard Him for ourselves and know [with confident assurance] that this One is truly the Savior of [all] the world.” [Since Jesus does not save all people in the world, that must refer to the elect]

John 6:33 For the Bread of God is He who comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world [the elect who are among the inhabitants of the world] is my flesh.”

John 12:46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes and trusts in Me [as Savior—all those who anchor their hope in Me and rely on the truth of My message] will not continue to live in darkness.

John 12:47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world.

Romans 11:15 For if their [present] rejection [of salvation] is for the reconciliation of the world [to God], what will their acceptance [of salvation] be but [nothing less than] life from the dead?

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God]. [only the elect are reconciled]

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [as] Savior of the world. God's sending his Son to be the "Savior of the world," and his servant to testify it, is nothing but to be the Savior of men living in the world; which his elect are. A hundred such places as these, so clearly interpreted as they are in other places, would make naught at all to the purpose.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Entire Universe - John 1:10; 1:3; 17:5

The Physical Earth - John 13:1; 16:33; 21:25

The World System - John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11 (see also similar usage in Gal 1:4 Paul)

All humanity minus believers - John 7:7; 15:18

A Big Group but less than all people everywhere - John 12:19 Then the Pharisees [argued and] said to one another, “You see that your efforts are futile. Look! The whole world has gone [running] after Him!”

The Elect Only - John 3:17

The Non-Elect Only - John 17:9 I pray for them; I do not pray for the world, but for those You have given Me, because they belong to You;

The Realm of Mankind - John 1:10; (this is very probably the best understanding of the word "world" in John 3:16 also)

Jews and Gentiles (not just Israel but many Gentiles too) - John 4:42

The General Public (as distinguished from a private group) not those in small private groups - John 7:4

The sufficiency of Christ’s death for all



But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term “world” has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of “the world” in each passage, and by fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to “give” His only begotten Son, and that was His great “love;” the second clause informs us for whom God “gave” His Son, and that is for, “whosoever (or, better, ‘everyone’) believeth;” while the last clause makes known why God “gave” His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth “should not perish but have everlasting life.” That “the world” in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from “the world of the ungodly” (2 Peter 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s “love.” “God commendeth His love toward US”—the saints, Romans 5:8. “Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth”—every son, Hebrews 12:6. “We love Him, because He first loved US”—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God “pities” (see Matthew 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is “kind” (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures “with much long-suffering” (see Rom. 9:22). But “His own” God “loves”!!"

The word world in John 3:16 does NOT refer to everyone unless you will grant:

The love of God towards innumerable unbelievers to be fruitless and vain;

The Son of God to be given to them who, first, never hear word of him (faith cometh by hearing); secondly, have no power granted to believe in him;

That God is mutable in his love for He gives and takes love away from unbelievers, or else still loveth those that be in hell;

That he doth not give all things to them to whom he gives his Son, contrary to Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?;

That he knows not certainly beforehand who shall believe and be saved; --

unless, ones says, all these blasphemies and absurdities be granted, it cannot be maintained that by the world here is meant all and everyone of mankind, but only men in common scattered throughout the world, which are the elect.



The Greek word “aion”, which means age (dispensation) has been translated to the word “world” 40 times. Thus, when Matthew 13:49 states “So shall it be at the end of the world,” there is a reference not to the end of the material earth, but rather to the end of this age.



The word “World” per John Owen

The word world, which in the New Testament is called kosmos (for there is another word sometimes translated world, namely, aion, that belongs not to this matter, noting rather the duration of time.

First, generally, holos, for the whole fabric of heaven and earth, with all things in them contained, which in the beginning were created of God: so Job 34:13; Acts 17:24; Ephesians 1:4, and in very many other places.

Secondly,

Distinctively, first, for the heavens, and all things belonging to them, distinguished from the earth, Psalm 90:2; secondly, The habitable earth, and this very frequently, as Psalm 24:1, Psalm 98:7; Matthew 13:38; John 1:9, John 3:17, John 3:19b, John 6:14, 17:11; 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 6:7.

Secondly, For the world contained, especially men in the world; and that either, --

First, universally for all and everyone, Romans 3:6, 19, Romans 5:12.

Secondly, Indefinitely for men, without restriction or enlargement, John 7:4; Isaiah 13:11.

Thirdly, exegetically, for many, which is the most usual acceptation of the word, Matthew 18:7; John 5:42, John 12:19, John 16:8, John 17:21; 1 Corinthians 4:9; Revelation 13:3.

Fourthly, Comparatively, for a great part of the world, Romans 1:8; Matthew 24:14, 26:13; Romans 10:18.

Fifthly, Restrictively, for the inhabitants of the Roman empire, Luke 2:1.

Sixthly, For men distinguished in their several qualifications, as, --

1st, For the good, God's people, either in designation or possession, Psalms 22:27; John 3:16, John 6:33, John 6:51; Romans 4:13, Romans 11:12, Romans 11:15; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Colossians 1:6; 1 John 2:2.

Secondly, For the evil, wicked, rejected men of the world, Isaiah 8:11; John 7:7, John 14:17, John 14:22, John 15:19, 17:25; 1 Corinthians 6:2, 11:32; Hebrews 11:38; 2 Peter 2:5; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 13:3.

Thirdly, For the world corrupted, or that universal corruption which is in all things in it, as Galatians 1:4, Galatians 6:14; Ephesians 2:2; James 1:27, James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 Corinthians 7:31, 1 Corinthians 7:33; Colossians 2:8; 2 Timothy 4:10; Romans 12:2; 1 Corinthians 1:20, 21, 1 Corinthians 3:18-19.

Fourthly, For a terrene worldly estate or condition of men or things, Psalm 73:12; Luke 16:8; John 18:36; 1 John 4:5, and very many other places.

Fifthly, For the world accursed, as under the power of Satan, John 7:7, John 14:30, John 16:11, John 16:33; 1 Corinthians 2:12; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 6:12. And divers other significations hath this word in holy writ, which are needless to recount

The strength of the opposing view being but the ambiguity of the word “world”. Let the Christian reader Prove all things, and hold fast that which is good.


...anyways, you're not the first one to struggle with the meaning of the word WORLD.
... and, the ambiguity of the word WORLD can be used to distort its true meaning
... so the rule of thumb is, develop doctrine based on the explicit and not the implicit (watch out for the word WORLD)

 

[rogerg]

But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term “world” has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of “the world” in each passage, and by fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to “give” His only begotten Son, and that was His great “love;” the second clause informs us for whom God “gave” His Son, and that is for, “whosoever (or, better, ‘everyone’) believeth;” while the last clause makes known why God “gave” His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth “should not perish but have everlasting life.” That “the world” in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from “the world of the ungodly” (2 Peter 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s “love.” “God commendeth His love toward US”—the saints, Romans 5:8. “Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth”—every son, Hebrews 12:6. “We love Him, because He first loved US”—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God “pities” (see Matthew 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is “kind” (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures “with much long-suffering” (see Rom. 9:22). But “His own” God “loves”!!"

Oddly enough, Fastfredy0, I could be wrong, but I don't feel confused about which world it is to be destroyed, and how it will be destroyed, because God has graciously provided to us a lot of specific information about what He meant. I think the destruction will encompass everything God created in Genesis. I realize the word "world" can be used in many different ways in many different places in the Bible depending upon context, nevertheless, the destruction of this physical world is clearly explained and delineated below. That being the case, I cannot see how, logically speaking, this current world will be the one saved per John 3:16 -17. Consequently, I go back to my original premise, that two worlds, not one, are being mentioned in those verses. And as for who will be those saved to inhabit the world to come, they will only be the elect. Christ only saves that which God has intended to be eternal.

[2Pe 3:7 KJV] 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:10 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[Rev 21:1 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

[Mar 10:30 KJV] 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, brightfame52, unfortunately, I'm in one of my dense modes right now, would you mind please being a little
more specific regarding your question? thanks

Take your time, no hurry, just wanted your thoughts on those scriptures.

 

[rogerg]

Take your time, no hurry, just wanted your thoughts on those scriptures.

Did you have a specific question or just generally?

 

[brightfame52]

Did you have a specific question or just generally?

The question was as before, what is your understanding of those verses ?

 

[rogerg]

How do you understand Rom 8:20-23

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

brightfame52,
I'll try to do the best I can with them, although I'd be interested to hear your interpretation too.
Not sure I have it all down perfectly, but I think I might have the gist of it.
To me, the verses turn on the words "creature" and "creation". If we can understand what they mean, it might go
a long way in helping us understand the remainder of the verses. In the context used there,
I believe "creature" refers to those who have (and will) become born again, that is, spiritual creatures, not physical creatures. And as such (and paraphrasing), we are informed that those born-again (the spiritual creatures), eagerly await the completion of their redemption - both body and soul. And along the same lines, as used, "creation" represents the total spiritual creation, not a physical creation - which also encompasses all of the elect, including (as of that writing), the apostles, and which will be brought to fruition on the last day, but until then, they/it will suffer under the god of this world, housed in a corrupted/sinful body.
Think it anywhere near close?

 

[brightfame52]

Both faith and repentance are our works when we make them conditions that we perform in order to get God to save us, but instead, both faith and repentance should be understood to be Christ achieved blessings of the covenant, His Gifts given to them He shed His Blood for.

This understanding takes them out of the realm of being works salvation, and constitutes them works that follow salvation Eph 2:9-10

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In other words, both faith and repentance are not the causes of Salvation, but the fruit of Salvation ! 28

 

[brightfame52]

Man making a freewill decision to so call accept Christ, resulting in his or her salvation, thats works, however God choosing a man or woman who has been chosen by God, resulting in their Salvation is Grace. Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise. 29

 

[rogerg]

Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise. 29

And if it is a required work, brlghtfame52, then, by it being a requirement for salvation, by definition, it must also be a law, or it couldn't be a requirement.
But thanks to God, that through His mercy and His grace, instead, it comes fully and completely as a gift in its totality through Jesus Christ, thereby making it neither of law nor of work, but as a gift.