Is believing/faith a work ?

[Fastfredy0]

The free gift of salvation cannot be earned. Otherwise, it is not a free gift.

Agreed.
And thus Free Will does not exist in regards to saving faith as Free Will would make the gift conditional on a WORK we must do. A conditional gift is a contradiction in terms and doing work to be saved contradicts scripture as we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and God says we can't boast in our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Job 41:11;Isaiah 42:8b; 1 Corinthians 4:7; many more)

Aside: Liberterian Free Will would be possible given the premises above, but it has other issues.

 

[jaybo]

Do you believe a Christian has to have works Jay?

I'm not sure what you mean by a Christian "having" works. If you mean "do" works (or more properly, do work), then no I don't think so. Suppose a person is incapable of working. Does that mean that s/he is not Christian? Better not go near any Christian "old folks homes".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I told you Im familiar with that verse, says nothing about believing being a condition man meets to be saved or justified, in fact its against that concept.

Show me in those verses that they are, in fact, against that concept.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Arminian individuals work with God to save themselves

The non-Calvy position is that if individuals let the word remain in them they will remain in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life. Which of course comes right from the word of God:

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1 John 2:24-25

We can easily see that it is incumbent on the individual to let the word remain in them. The person who continues to believe will continue to be saved. This only has anything to do with works insofar as works signify continued believing, and the cessation of works signifies a return to unbelief.

If you think this is a works gospel then you do not know what a works gospel is. 'Believing' is in no way on the side of works in Paul's "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6) teaching.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Free Will would make the gift conditional on a WORK we must do. A conditional gift is a contradiction in terms and doing work to be saved contradicts scripture

'Believing' is not included in the works that Paul says can not justify. It's impossible to say Paul included 'believing' in the works gospel that can not justify. He clearly delineates believing from working as to what justifies and what does not justify. You show me where it says 'believing' can not justify and I'll show you where it says it does.

 

[Cooper]

Agreed.
And thus Free Will does not exist in regards to saving faith as Free Will would make the gift conditional on a WORK we must do. A conditional gift is a contradiction in terms and doing work to be saved contradicts scripture as we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and God says we can't boast in our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Job 41:11;Isaiah 42:8b; 1 Corinthians 4:7; many more)

Aside: Liberterian Free Will would be possible given the premises above, but it has other issues.

Free will causes us to sin, many examples in the Bible.
Free will allows us to repent and be secure in God's
Free Gift of salvation, that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God and so we cannot boast.
.

 

[atpollard]

Free Gift of salvation, that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God and so we cannot boast.

What EXACTLY does God give?

• What is included in this "gift"?
• What is not included (ie. what must we bring to the table)?

 

[Cooper]

What EXACTLY does God give?

• What is included in this "gift"?
• What is not included (ie. what must we bring to the table)?

Christ's blood cleanses those who come to him, from all sin.

Answer:
1. Included in this gift is a heart cleansed from all sin.
2. We bring ourselves.
.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The non-Calvy position is that if individuals let the word remain in them they will remain in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life. Which of course comes right from the word of God:

I don't even know what "if individuals let the word remain in them" or "they will remain in the Father" means though I have a guess at the second phrase.

We can easily see that it is incumbent on the individual to let the word remain in them.

Again, I am not familiar with the jargon.

If you think this is a works gospel then you do not know what a works gospel is.

I can't speak to that as the previous jargon I could not comprehend.

 

[Fastfredy0]

'Believing' is not included in the works that Paul says can not justify.

Gee, I hate double negatives... I think you're saying "salvific faith" does not justify. If so, give a verse. I already gave a verse saying "salvific faith" justifies.

It's impossible to say Paul included 'believing' in the works gospel that can not justify. He clearly delineates believing from working as to what justifies and what does not justify. You show me where it says 'believing' can not justify and I'll show you where it says it does.

This is confusing. I already gave a verse saying "salvific faith" justifies. Sounds like we agree.

 

[brightfame52]

The free gift of salvation cannot be earned. Otherwise, it is not a free gift.
.

Again, sounds good, but if a person conditions their salvation on their faith, believing, then thats works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Free will causes us to sin, many examples in the Bible.
Free will allows us to repent and be secure in God's

You haven't defined Free Will. There are several definitions. I define Free Will as the ability to do what you desire most. Using this definition, I agree with you.

Free Gift of salvation, that is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God and so we cannot boast.

I agree. Arminians believe they must do something to receive the gift ...that's why Arminians are defines as synergists.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again, sounds good, but if a person conditions their salvation on their faith, believing, then thats works.

I am reformed. God conditions my salvation on my faith. It is my faith that saves me and not the faith of another. The cause of my faith is God via regeneration and therefore my faith is a work of God (Romans 6:29) and not of my doing. NO ONE IS SAVED if they don't have FAITH.

 

[brightfame52]

Show me in those verses that they are, in fact, against that concept.

I have already went over that in the thread.

 

[brightfame52]

I am reformed. God conditions my salvation on my faith. It is my faith that saves me and not the faith of another. The cause of my faith is God via regeneration and therefore my faith is a work of God (Romans 6:29) and not of my doing. NO ONE IS SAVED if they don't have FAITH.

FF it doesnt matter what you are friend, if you or i condition salvation/justification on anything we do, yeah, even our believing, its works and opposed to grace.

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

It is my faith that saves me and not the faith of another.

That sounds like works to me. My Faith which was given to me graciously reveals to my mind who saved me, Jesus Christ.

 

[Fastfredy0]

FF it doesnt matter what you are friend, if you or i condition salvation/justification on anything we do, yeah, even our believing, its works and opposed to grace.

I will make it simple:
Are you saved by your belief, your faith? Yes or No

If you answer YES then your statement if false by definition. Your faith is a condition of your salvation.
If you answer NO, then what is the process by which one is saved?

 

[Fastfredy0]

That sounds like works to me. My Faith which was given to me graciously reveals to my mind who saved me, Jesus Christ.

This is a different statement than you saying

if you or i condition salvation/justification on anything we do, yeah, even our believing, its works and opposed to grace.

I agree .... God gives you faith. I prefer to say God causes you to believe, but the same thing. Therefore faith is not a work of man. Nevertheless, our faith is a condition of our salvation, said faith being caused by God. Our faith is the instrumental cause of our salvation like a nail is the instrumental cause of holding two boards together and the carpenter (God) is the Efficient Cause.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't even know what "if individuals let the word remain in them" or "they will remain in the Father" means though I have a guess at the second phrase.

Again, I am not familiar with the jargon.

I can't speak to that as the previous jargon I could not comprehend.

What is it about the verses I posted that you can not comprehend, lol?

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1 John 2:24-25

Now, go back to that post and give us the Calvinist spin on it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have already went over that in the thread.

The verses I posted say what they say and you are obviously unable to refute their plain words.