Is believing/faith a work ?

[Jethro Bodine]

Gee, I hate double negatives... I think you're saying "salvific faith" does not justify. If so, give a verse. I already gave a verse saying "salvific faith" justifies.

I don't think you're confused.
I seem to be the one that gives you a run for your money.
It's because I'm not Arminian...the only theology you thought Calvinism has to defend itself against.
I see you're having a hard time refuting what I post.

This is confusing. I already gave a verse saying "salvific faith" justifies. Sounds like we agree.

I don't think you're confused.
You're confusing the discussion, but you are not confused.
I gave the plainly stated verses that say what I said, and you can't answer them. Fine.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Now, go back to that post and give us the Calvinist spin on it.

Ah, you mean the truth.

I wrote, then you wrote something that did not highlight what statement I wrote you were referring too, then I wrote was confused. I lost the context of the discussion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You haven't defined Free Will. There are several definitions. I define Free Will as the ability to do what you desire most. Using this definition, I agree with you.

Since it's not your argument I don't have any problem saying that definition is stupid.

Everyday I choose to do things I desire very little or not at all. So, according to the definition of free will you use does that mean my will is not free? Of course not. In fact, it actually defends freedom of will quite well. More so than doing what I desire to do. For if I do what I desire most to do it could be argued my will has been captured by desire and is not free at all. My will chasing after something I don't desire actually demonstrates the freedom of my will - a will not coerced or owned or controlled by the thing being sought after.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah, you mean the truth.

Show me how this doesn't mean it is incumbent on the believer themselves to let the word of God remain in them as a condition for remaining in the Son, the Father, and the promise of eternal life:

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1 John 2:24-25

You don't even seem to realize that even in Calvinism it is incumbent on the believer to keep believing to the very end, not as a condition to remain in Christ (though that's what the passage says), but rather as the inevitable proof that the believer is a genuine believer, who it says can never fall away and will always believe and thus remain. As I have said, few Calvinists really know their own theology.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't think you're confused.

I was somewhat confused and knew that building upon a weak foundation was unwise.

I seem to be the one that gives you a run for your money.

Ah, because you understand what you are trying to say putting me at a disadvantage as I don't understand what you are saying.

It's because I'm not Arminian

Agreed, I don't know what you are which puts me at a disadvantage.

I see you're having a hard time refuting what I post.

Agree. I suppose you think it's because of the wisdom and logic of your post... whereas I don't know what the context or theme is anymore.

I gave the plainly stated verses that say what I said, and you can't answer them. Fine.

Agreed ... I can't address verses without context.

Since it's not your argument I don't have any problem saying that definition is stupid.

I'm sure you don't

I choose to do things I desire very little or not at all.

Ridiculous. So, you eat things you don't desire most. You married or dated the person you don't desire most.
You dated someone of the same sex because you did not desire to do so.... or ... dates someone of the opposite sex though you desired someone of the same sex ... or ... you didn't date anyone because you desired to date someone ...
you didn't kill Joe because you wanted to kill Joe and killed your mother because you didn't desire to kill your mom ...
Utterly ridiculous. Maybe you haven't committed suicide because you want to ....LOL ... .absurdity

I choose to do things I desire very little or not at all. Does that mean my will is not free to do that?

You are saying you desire to do what you don't desire. Calling Dr. Phil

For if I do what I desire most to do it could be argued my will has been captured by desire and is not free.

ROFL ... Yes, your will is captured by your desire ... LOL ...so because you do what you want to do you are not FREE ... ROFL ....absurd .....LOL

But my will chasing after something I don't desire actually demonstrates the freedom of my will

ROFL .... ah, I wish I had your freedom to do what I don't want to do ......ROFL

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ridiculous. So, you eat things you don't desire most. You married or dated the person you don't desire most.
You dated someone of the same sex because you did not desire to do so.... or ... dates someone of the opposite sex though you desired someone of the same sex ... or ... you didn't date anyone because you desired to date someone ...
you didn't kill Joe because you wanted to kill Joe and killed your mother because you didn't desire to kill your mom ...
Utterly ridiculous. Maybe you haven't committed suicide because you want to ....LOL ... .absurdity

Uh, can you say 'broccoli'?

Desperation, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed ... I can't address verses without context.

Add ALL the context you want.
Just answer 1 John 2:24-25 in light of Calvinism.
I practically told you how you're supposed to answer it as a Calvinist, lol!

It is incumbent upon the believer to LET the word of God remain in them and IF they do they will remain in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life. It's a conditional statement. Remaining in the Father is conditional on the word remaining in you. Even Calvinism says this! But it twists the statement to read the word remaining in you is not an 'if' (even though it says that) but a given and that remaining in the Father is the proof of it. You don't even know your own theology very well.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ROFL .... ah, I wish I had your freedom to do what I don't want to do ......ROFL

Stay on point.
I'm working in an office of unsaved people who are exercising the freedom of will to do what they do not want to do, lol!

Augustine obviously had too much time on his hands and overthought Christianity in all the debris of his pagan past.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Look, FF, I respect Calvinism. I don't agree with most of it, but I respect it. It defends holiness and believing to the very end. That's what matters.

And, as I said earlier somewhere, neither Calvinism nor non-Calvinism theology know if God put the potential in the soil for it to receive and retain and bring to fruition the word of God when seeded and watered, or if that potential is in the individual person themselves. The verses that Calvinism uses to assert that he does design that potential into the soil of his choosing don't say that. It just thinks it does.

 

[atpollard]

Augustine was an idiot!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, maybe a little too inflammatory, lol. I took it out of my post. But I still think it!

 

[atpollard]

Okay, maybe a little too inflammatory, lol. I took it out of my post. But I still think it!

Yeah, I thought you "jumped the shark" with that point.

 

[brightfame52]

I will make it simple:
Are you saved by your belief, your faith? Yes or No

If you answer YES then your statement if false by definition. Your faith is a condition of your salvation.
If you answer NO, then what is the process by which one is saved?

I have already gone through this, if one conditions there salvation/justification on something they do, for instance, believing, repenting, or water baptism, alms giving, taking a breath, its works.

 

[brightfame52]

This is a different statement than you saying

I agree .... God gives you faith. I prefer to say God causes you to believe, but the same thing. Therefore faith is not a work of man. Nevertheless, our faith is a condition of our salvation, said faith being caused by God. Our faith is the instrumental cause of our salvation like a nail is the instrumental cause of holding two boards together and the carpenter (God) is the Efficient Cause.

Thats works. Faith has no causation in ones salvation, absolutely none. Now its instrumental in revealing ones Salvation causing them to come into the Knowledge of it.

 

[brightfame52]

The verses I posted say what they say and you are obviously unable to refute their plain words.

Like I said, i have been through that many many times, if you condition your salvation on anything you do, its works !

 

[jaybo]

Thats works. Faith has no causation in ones salvation, absolutely none. Now its instrumental in revealing ones Salvation causing them to come into the Knowledge of it.

So much for Scripture, right?

Epheasians 2:8-9, " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

[brightfame52]

So much for Scripture, right?

Epheasians 2:8-9, " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

Nothing there about Faith being the cause of Salvation, or that its a condition for Salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Like I said, i have been through that many many times, if you condition your salvation on anything you do, its works !

Here is the condition that you say does not exist for being in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life:

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1 John 2:24-25

"If it does"...that's a conditional statement.
If you let the word of God remain in you, you will remain in the Father, the Son, and the promise of eternal life.
You say no such condition exists.
But here it is right in scripture for us to plainly see.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing there about Faith being the cause of Salvation, or that its a condition for Salvation.

30“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Any questions?

 

[Cooper]

Nothing there about Faith being the cause of Salvation, or that its a condition for Salvation.

So having faith in God is irrelevant!

Galatians 2:16

Galatians 3:23-27

Hebrews 11:1-8
.