Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

Faith FIRST as in God teaches. Then Christ is received through that faith.

Nope. You obviously didn't read the below verses, at least not closely.

Do you see the "but the spirit which is of God; that we might now the things that are freely given"?
Do you see the "because they are spiritually discerned"?
Those mean that for one to have an understanding of things spiritual, they must first receive the Spirit, otherwise,
for those who haven't received Him, they are of the "natural man", and CANNOT know things spiritual: salvation first, faith second, but even that faith, is, in itself, a gift given from God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[JLB]

No one can do that of themselves.

It's called grace; the God given ability to do what we can not do without it.

Which is believe, and therefore obey what we hear from God; which is called the word of faith.

The truth remains clear, only those who believe the message of Christ are saved.

Unbelief gains us nothing.

People are not given salvation because of unbelief.

However, that is what you are trying to convince everyone.





JLB

 

[rogerg]

The truth remains clear, only those who believe the message of Christ are saved.

If it doesn't result in salvation, it ain't grace.
It's really astounding to me that you guys who claim to be Christian, have so much trouble
understanding that Christ - Himself the very root of the word Christian -
actually is the Saviour.
Do you understand what a Saviour is?
Faith comes only "through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"; that means that faith is
only by Christ.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[2Pe 1:3 KJV]
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

God's love for His creatures.

To be honest God loves only some people, His elect jacobs according to the purpose of election Rom 9:11-14

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

All the non elect are under the Just Judicial hate of God

God loves His creatures and gives them a way of escape from damnation.

Not all, some God created for the damnation of their sins, to magnify His Justice, they have no escape of damnation, Jesus spoke to some of that sort here Matt 23:23
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jesus already knew they cant escape the damnation of hell, He didnt love them, He wasnt going to die for them, they were not His Sheep given to Him by His Father.

Through Faith...
We are saved by God's plan for man's salvation THROUGH FAITH...

False, People are saved by Christ the Saviour, the object of their Faith. Faith didn't die for nobody's sins. Everyone Jesus Christ died for, they will be given the Gift of Faith to know about it, to rest in it.

GRACE, FAITH AND SALVATION ARE GIFTS FROM GOD.

And that NOT OF YOURSELVES....
Our salvation is not of our own doing THROUGH WORKS,
so that none may boast that they are saved and others are not.

You are saying that, but do you really believe it ? If you did, then you would know that Christ didn't die for everyone without exception, but only for the saved. What made you to differ from any other sinner Christ died for yet they wind up in hell, and you dont ?

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus didn't state the good soil is the new regenerated heart. That's your twist which you seem to add over and over to all kinds of scripture.

He didnt say it wasnt, Its implied. How else is a heart good ? Mans heart by nature is not good. Its evil Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Also the good heart hearer was said to hear and understand the word Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Thats revealing, because men by nature dont understand nor seek the True God as Per Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The word for understandeth here is the very same greek word in Matt 13:23

So thats another indication that the good heart hearer is regenerate.

 

[Randy]

He didnt say it wasnt, Its implied. How else is a heart good ? Mans heart by nature is not good. Its evil Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Also the good heart hearer was said to hear and understand the word Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Thats revealing, because men by nature dont understand nor seek the True God as Per Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The word for understandeth here is the very same greek word in Matt 13:23

So thats another indication that the good heart hearer is regenerate.

Its not implied that good was from a gift of God. No sir!

 

[Randy]

Nope. You obviously didn't read the below verses, at least not closely.

Do you see the "but the spirit which is of God; that we might now the things that are freely given"?
Do you see the "because they are spiritually discerned"?
Those mean that for one to have an understanding of things spiritual, they must first receive the Spirit, otherwise,
for those who haven't received Him, they are of the "natural man", and CANNOT know things spiritual: salvation first, faith second, but even that faith, is, in itself, a gift given from God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. So obedience first before born again.
If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever.

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

As Paul preached to a world full of false Gods and many different customs the knowledge of the truth comes first then produces faith which people come to Christ through that faith.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

Paul is a exception and was chosen by God for HIS purposes

So is all the other true believers chosen for Gods purpose, even though they all werent chosen to apostleship. Paul warns against that type of evil thinking in 1 Cor 12:12-31

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way

All believers are an intricate part of Christs Body, there are no big I's and little you's

Pauls conversion was a pattern for all who shall believe 1 Tim 1:14-16

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting

Dont be elevating Paul over the rest of the Body, he not with that ! Its about Grace Friend !

.

 

[Randy]

randy



So is all the other true believers chosen for Gods purpose, even though they all werent chosen to apostleship. Paul warns against that type of evil thinking in 1 Cor 12:12-31





Pauls conversion was a pattern for all who shall believe 1 Tim 1:14-16

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting

Dont be elevating Paul over the rest of the Body, he not with that ! Its about Grace Friend !

I was saved by GRACE. But I wasn't set aside before I was born to be saved!

1 Tim 1:4-16 is not about being set apart from the womb. But at about Jesus's patience in those who would come to believe in Him.

 

[rogerg]

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. So obedience first before born again.

Nope. You didn't understand the verse I posted that says we must first have the Holy Spirit to be able
to understand things spiritual?

Obedience to the faith is only given as a gift from God to His elect

[Rom 16:25 KJV]
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever.

That was before the completion of Christ's offering. Until them, the Spirit of Christ dwelled within them, but at its completion, Christ sent the Holy Ghost.

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

in order for those to obey Him, they receive the Holy Ghost first, and by that, He
causes them to obey - Holy Ghost first, obeying second

As Paul preached to a world full of false Gods and many different customs the knowledge of the truth comes first then produces faith which people come to Christ through that faith.

With faith comes a knowledge of the truth, but both are gifts of God - they are not of the individual.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It's amazing how a little piece of flesh led to this kind of heresy.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Any person who was taught as a child (as I was) to believe in God, believed in him because that's what we were told.
To deny what we know is true, is sin.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Mk.14:10

By "such as these", our Savior didn't mean, "Only the little children I choose", or point to certain children and ignore other ones. He loves all children.
So what did our Lord mean by, "such as these?" He meant all children are blameless in his eyes.

 

[brightfame52]

I was saved by GRACE. But I wasn't set aside before I was born to be saved!

1 Tim 1:4-16 is not about being set apart from the womb. But at about Jesus's patience in those who would come to believe in Him.

Understand, Im going by the scripture testimony, not your life friend.

 

[Randy]

Understand, Im going by the scripture testimony, not your life friend.

So am I. Its your interpterion's that differ. Paul was not a sinner after He was baptized and came to know the Lord. So if Jesus can save Him from that state it shows the unlimited patience of the Lord towards those still in sin. Its not about set aside from birth.

 

[Randy]

Nope. You didn't understand the verse I posted that says we must first have the Holy Spirit to be able
to understand things spiritual?

Obedience to the faith is only given as a gift from God to His elect

[Rom 16:25 KJV]
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


That was before the completion of Christ's offering. Until them, the Spirit of Christ dwelled within them, but at its completion, Christ sent the Holy Ghost.


in order for those to obey Him, they receive the Holy Ghost first, and by that, He
causes them to obey - Holy Ghost first, obeying second


With faith comes a knowledge of the truth, but both are gifts of God - they are not of the individual.

Faith first then receiving Christ through that faith.

 

[brightfame52]

So am I. Its your interpterion's that differ. Paul was not a sinner after He was baptized and came to know the Lord. So if Jesus can save Him from that state it shows the unlimited patience of the Lord towards those still in sin. Its not about set aside from birth.

Okay, I showed you scripture. It appears you not in agreement with it, thats fine !

 

[brightfame52]

Nope. You didn't understand the verse I posted that says we must first have the Holy Spirit to be able
to understand things spiritual?

Obedience to the faith is only given as a gift from God to His elect

[Rom 16:25 KJV]
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


That was before the completion of Christ's offering. Until them, the Spirit of Christ dwelled within them, but at its completion, Christ sent the Holy Ghost.


in order for those to obey Him, they receive the Holy Ghost first, and by that, He
causes them to obey - Holy Ghost first, obeying second


With faith comes a knowledge of the truth, but both are gifts of God - they are not of the individual.

Actually those who obey God evidences that God gave them the Spirit. As you know, sanctification of the Spirit is the effectual cause of evangelical obedience 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

That word unto the prep eis means:

to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)

The sanctifying work of the Spirit results into obedience, which I believe is obedience of Faith Rom 16:26

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In fact the word for is the same word eis ! God the Holy Spirit gets the credit for working Faith in the Elect believer !

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

in order for those to obey Him, they receive the Holy Ghost first, and by that, He
causes them to obey - Holy Ghost first, obeying second

Amen again in 1 Pet 1 :22
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Obeying the The Truth through/dia [because of] the Spirit Another Apostolic testimony from Peter that obeying the Truth is through by means of the Spirit !

 

[JLB]

If it doesn't result in salvation, it ain't grace.

It’s by grace we believe. For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation… for those who believe.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes… Romans 1:16


Nevertheless no one is saved apart from hearing and believing the Gospel message of salvation through Jesus Christ.



JLB