Is believing/faith a work ?

[heartwashed]

Have you considered what it says in Acts 2:40 (kjv)?

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 10:13 was written by Paul.

He conditioned salvation on man in that particular verse.

I know what Paul wrote, but its you who conditions salvation on man !

 

[heartwashed]

I know what Paul wrote, but its you who conditions salvation on man !

So does Paul.

Paul did not write in Romans 10:13, "Whosoever is saved shall call upon the name of the Lord."

He gave it the reverse order.

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

So does Paul.

Paul did not write in Romans 10:13, "Whosoever is saved shall call upon the name of the Lord."

He gave it the reverse order.

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No not Paul, you condition Salvation on the will of man. Paul makes no mention of a condition.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You still condition salvation on man.

One Man and it's shameful that Calvanists teach what the one Man did isn't enough.

 

[brightfame52]

One Man and it's shameful that Calvanists teach what the one Man did isn't enough.

Thats you, because scripture teaches that by one mans obedience [Christ] shall many be made righteous/saved Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So do you believe every sinner Christ died for shall be made righteous/saved, just solely by His one Obedience alone ? Yes or no, put up !

 

[rogerg]

If works are defined as something that we do to save ourselves, faith is not a work;

Faith is a work. Anything that someone must do of themselves to become saved makes that "anything" a work - even it being a mental or intellectual exercise it is still a work. It is a work because of the requirement for us to achieve it of ourselves thereby making it not only work, but also a law. What makes It a law is because it has a condition associated to it such that should we not satisfy or violate it, salvation is impossible. For a law to be satisfied, something is required of those who are under it to satisfy it. But, we know that no one can saved by their works of law, but instead are condemned by them.
But this is not the gospel. Instead, the gospel states that those who become saved/born again are under no law for salvation but instead are under grace. That grace is "given you by Jesus Christ" solely as a gift with no strings attached.
True faith comes only to those who become saved from being saved, through the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a gift. And only those saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

These verses demonstrate beyond question that faith is a work, and that it is solely God's work to achieve:

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

True faith is given only by the Holy Spirit. It is not of ourselves:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Through Christ's offering, on our behalf, God's grace for us was brought to fruition:

[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Until saved, we are all under law. Therefore, anything that come by us, is of the law. But as the verse below
informs, only faith that is of/by God is righteous and saves, ours does not. An unrighteous faith by the law cannot bring salvation:

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God imparts true belief in Christ as His gift. It is not of ourselves.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Titus is referring to salvation after the successful completion of Christ's offering, not before its completion. If the verse meant before Christ, then what was stated in it could not be true. Notice the "according to His mercy He saved us." Because of Christ's offering, mercy was brought to fruition. The remainder of the verse is of the process by which the Holy Spirit carries our God's salvation plan for an individual from that mercy.
I think you need to see those verses as consisting of two basic parts not just one part: 1) Christ making possible salvation, and 2) the process by which salvation is applied to each of those chosen.

[Tit 3:3-6 KJV]
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Thats you, because scripture teaches that by one mans obedience [Christ] shall many be made righteous/saved Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So do you believe every sinner Christ died for shall be made righteous/saved, just solely by His one Obedience alone ? Yes or no, put up !

Only those who believe what he said,

After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,”he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mk.1:14-15

The devil loves it when people don't believe our Lord.

 

[Hopeful]

So, you don't think that having the Holy Ghost means that you are saved?

I have seen too many fakers to believe what I see.
There is a day of judgement coming in the which God will decide who is saved.
I will not usurp the judgement of God.

bad works can be forgiven.
Rom 5:16, And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

You mean sin, don't you?
Call it what it is.
Sin can be forgiven, but each sin shows that the last repentance from sin was a lie to God.
We can't forge a relationship with God that is based on lies.

It is not just Mosaic works (circumcision and diet) that will not be able to save us; but also if we "cast out devils in Your Name, prophesy in Your Name, and do many wonderful works in Your Name" (Matthew 7:22), it is no guarantee of salvation (Matthew 7:23).

Agreed, as the devil can do signs and wonders too.
What can save us though, is abstaining from iniquity.
We can only do that while in Christ, in the light.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

Faith is a work. Anything that someone must do of themselves to become saved makes that "anything" a work - even it being a mental or intellectual exercise it is still a work.

Yes, even though Faith is a noun, its still a work that is done. Jesus identified Faith as something that ought to have been done Matt 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Secondly Faith is commanded to do, because its in the imperative mood here Mark 11:22

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

So the issue is whose work is it ? Is it a Faith that is the Gift of God and totally of Grace, God working it in you, or is it your faith by nature apart from the new birth ?

even it being a mental or intellectual exercise it is still a work.

Correct, thats what have faith in God means ! the greek word for work ergon means:

1. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

For example to make a decision in the mind is a work

It is a work because of the requirement for us to achieve it of ourselves thereby making it not only work, but also a law. What makes It a law is because it has a condition associated to it such that should we not satisfy or violate it, salvation is impossible. For a law to be satisfied, something is required of those who are under it to satisfy it. But, we know that no one can saved by their works of law, but instead are condemned by them.

Correct, when we make anything a condition that we are required to do prior to God saving us, its by default work or law keeping salvation and salvation by grace is forfeited.

But this is not the gospel. Instead, the gospel states that those who become saved/born again are under no law for salvation but instead are under grace. That grace is "given you by Jesus Christ" solely as a gift with no strings attached.
True faith comes only to those who become saved from being saved, through the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a gift. And only those saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I agree

God imparts true belief in Christ as His gift. It is not of ourselves.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I agree. Thats because of Christs faithfulness Phil 3:9

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So God gives Faith to believe in Jesus to everyone Christ by His Faithfulness has fulfilled all the conditions needed to make us righteous apart from the law.

 

[brightfame52]

Only those who believe what he said,

After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,”he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mk.1:14-15

The devil loves it when people don't believe our Lord.

So do you believe every sinner Christ died for shall be made righteous/saved, just solely by His one Obedience alone ? Yes or no

 

[heartwashed]

No not Paul, you condition Salvation on the will of man. Paul makes no mention of a condition.

Sure he does.

He says that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

The condition: calling on the name of the Lord.

The result: salvation!

Faith is a work. Anything that someone must do of themselves to become saved makes that "anything" a work - even it being a mental or intellectual exercise it is still a work. It is a work because of the requirement for us to achieve it of ourselves thereby making it not only work, but also a law. What makes It a law is because it has a condition associated to it such that should we not satisfy or violate it, salvation is impossible. For a law to be satisfied, something is required of those who are under it to satisfy it. But, we know that no one can saved by their works of law, but instead are condemned by them.
But this is not the gospel. Instead, the gospel states that those who become saved/born again are under no law for salvation but instead are under grace. That grace is "given you by Jesus Christ" solely as a gift with no strings attached.
True faith comes only to those who become saved from being saved, through the fruit of the Holy Spirit as a gift. And only those saved are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

These verses demonstrate beyond question that faith is a work, and that it is solely God's work to achieve:

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

True faith is given only by the Holy Spirit. It is not of ourselves:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Through Christ's offering, on our behalf, God's grace for us was brought to fruition:

[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

Until saved, we are all under law. Therefore, anything that come by us, is of the law. But as the verse below
informs, only faith that is of/by God is righteous and saves, ours does not. An unrighteous faith by the law cannot bring salvation:

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God imparts true belief in Christ as His gift. It is not of ourselves.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Titus is referring to salvation after the successful completion of Christ's offering, not before its completion. If the verse meant before Christ, then what was stated in it could not be true. Notice the "according to His mercy He saved us." Because of Christ's offering, mercy was brought to fruition. The remainder of the verse is of the process by which the Holy Spirit carries our God's salvation plan for an individual from that mercy.
I think you need to see those verses as consisting of two basic parts not just one part: 1) Christ making possible salvation, and 2) the process by which salvation is applied to each of those chosen.

[Tit 3:3-6 KJV]
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Faith and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation.

We are saved through faith; we are not saved by works. How then is faith a work?

If faith is a work, then in being saved through faith we would be saved by works.

If faith is a work, then we cannot be saved through faith because salvation is not of works.

 

[heartwashed]

Initial faith is not the fruit of the Spirit.

How can one have the Spirit, and therefore the fruit of faith, apart from having access to grace?

Scripture is clear.
Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

A person has access to grace through faith.

Therefore, if one must have the Spirit, and therefore the fruit of faith, in order to have access into grace, how did they get the Spirit apart from grace?

For one must have faith before they can have access to grace.

 

[heartwashed]

I have seen too many fakers to believe what I see.
There is a day of judgement coming in the which God will decide who is saved.
I will not usurp the judgement of God.

You mean sin, don't you?
Call it what it is.
Sin can be forgiven, but each sin shows that the last repentance from sin was a lie to God.
We can't forge a relationship with God that is based on lies.

Agreed, as the devil can do signs and wonders too.
What can save us though, is abstaining from iniquity.
We can only do that while in Christ, in the light.

1) the devil does not do signs and wonders in the name of Jesus, it is contrary to his purposes to do so. The sign or wonder would bring glory to Jesus.

2) yes, repentance must be genuine in order to be accepted by God.

3) If anyone truly has the Holy Spirit, they are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

 

[rogerg]

If works are defined as something that we do to save ourselves, faith is not a work;

While faith is something that exists within the heart of a person who hears the word of the Lord, that saves him.

It is impossible for true faith - a true faith in Christ, that is - to exist within someone unless saved and born again by God. Natural man of himself is completely unable to either comprehend or have true faith in the gospel of God. The only way for that to change is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Please read these verses carefully. Their importance should not be missed or understated. They define and bring to light the spiritual state of the unsaved - a state we were all in before salvation. Being spiritually dead and blind in sin, they are completely unable to comprehend (or to "hear") the gospel (not having spiritual ears) in order to do what you suggested above they can do.

I've posted these verses many, many times before and for some reason are usually ignored. I'm hoping they can make an impression with you.


[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[heartwashed]

It is impossible for true faith - a true faith in Christ, that is - to exist within someone unless saved and born again by God. Natural man of himself is completely unable to either comprehend or have true faith in the gospel of God. The only way for that to change is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Please read these verses carefully. Their importance should not be missed or understated. They define and bring to light the spiritual state of the unsaved - a state we were all in before salvation. Being spiritually dead and blind in sin, they are completely unable to comprehend (or to "hear") the gospel (not having spiritual ears) in order to do what you suggested above they can do.

I've posted these verses many, many times before and for some reason are usually ignored. I'm hoping they can make an impression with you.


[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

However, you seem to think that we can have access into grace apart from faith; since by your estimation grace comes before faith. For you say that one cannot have a genuine faith unless they are first born again.

How then did they become born again?

For we have access into grace (being born again) through faith (Romans 5:2).

It should be clear that a man is not born again except through faith.

For we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

 

[rogerg]

For one must have faith before they can have access to grace.

Grace only comes because of/from the faith of Christ. It is NOT by the faith of the individual that grace was given.
In becoming saved/born again, those born again are given as a gift a true faith in Christ.... but they have ALREADY been given grace. Salvation/born again first, from/by that, true faith - all gifts of God, none from ourselves.

Faith of Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[heartwashed]

Grace only comes because of/from the faith of Christ. It is NOT by the faith of the individual that grace was given.
In becoming saved/born again, those born again are given as a gift a true faith in Christ.... but they have ALREADY been given grace. Salvation/born again first, from/by that, true faith - all gifts of God, none from ourselves.

Faith of Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We must individually own the faith of Christ in order for it to avail for us in salvation.

Heb 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[rogerg]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

BY Christ's faith, He was the one who was faithful to the Father and pleased Him, not us - He alone is the Saviour, and we are not. Therefore, it cannot be that our faith is the object of that verse.

For we have access into grace (being born again) through faith (Romans 5:2).

Do you see the "by whom"? Christ is the "by whom" - justified by Christ's faith, not ours.

[Rom 5:1-2 KJV]
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It should be clear that a man is not born again except through faith.

You don't believe that Christ alone is the Saviour? If you don't believe that, say so and it will make it a lot easier for the both of us.

 

[rogerg]

We must individually own the faith of Christ in order for it to avail for us in salvation.

Heb 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Not sure what you mean by "own the faith of Christ"?
but faith must first be present, preceding the hearing of the gospel for that to happen.
By Christ's faith, those saved receive faith. Read this verse again. Because of Christ's faith, those saved are given faith in Christ through the fruit of the Spirit. Look at the "but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ".
It is by Christ that we believe, not of ourselves. Faith has to be given first for the gospel to have meaning to anyone

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by
the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.