Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

Sure he does.

He says that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

The condition: calling on the name of the Lord.

The result: salvation!

Paul never said that was a condition, you added that. Its you that condition Salvation on man

Faith and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation.

Yes, but only when people like yourself hijack Faith from the realm of Grace and make it a human requirement, it then loses its mutual exclusiveness and quite frankly becomes a work of the flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Thats more than likely talking about prayer. Believers can with boldness, confidence access the throne of grace Eph 3:12

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Heb 4:16

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 10:19

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

So that scripture does nothing for your case at all

Faith to pray with is the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of regeneration.

 

[heartwashed]

Initial faith is not the fruit of the Spirit.

For how can one have the Spirit, and thus the fruit of faith, apart from having access into grace?

Therefore, since access into grace comes as the result of faith (Romans 5:2), faith as a fruit of the Spirit is not speaking of the initial faith that a person has in coming to the Lord for salvation.

That initial faith comes through a decision to believe in and follow Christ; which decision can only be made if the person is being drawn to Christ;

And being drawn to Christ and regeneration happen to be two very different things; since regeneration comes when a person makes the actual decision to believe in and follow Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

Initial faith is not the fruit of the Spirit.

Absolutely false and scripture never says that ! Man by nature is spiritually dead and has no Spiritual fruit. At best the only faith/believing the natural man has is that equal with devils James 2:9

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

For how can one have the Spirit, and thus the fruit of faith, apart from having access into grace?

How can one have Faith, the fruit of the Spirit, without being born again ? Once a person is born again, given faith, then they by faith go to the throne of grace

Therefore, since access into grace comes as the result of faith (Romans 5:2), faith as a fruit of the Spirit is not speaking of the initial faith that a person has in coming to the Lord for salvation.

Its access to the throne of Grace by Faith.

That initial faith comes through a decision to believe in and follow Christ; which decision can only be made if the person is being drawn to Christ;

False teaching, dead people cant make Spiritual decisions, spiritually dead people cant believe in Jesus Christ, at least not the Jesus Christ of the scripture. Believing in a jesus that supposedly died for all humanity isnt believing in Jesus. And being drawn to Christ is regeneration.

And being drawn to Christ and regeneration happen to be two very different things; since regeneration comes when a person makes the actual decision to believe in and follow Christ.

False statement, regeneration and being drawn to Christ are the same thing.

 

[journeyman]

So do you believe every sinner Christ died for shall be made righteous/saved, just solely by His one Obedience alone ? Yes or no

No, as the love our Lord gave doesn't constrain all for whom he died,

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2Cor.5:14

 

[Edward]

So do you believe every sinner Christ died for shall be made righteous/saved? Yes or no

My answer is yes, as soon as the Lord enters into you. As soon as your saved you are made righteous. But! Consider that this happens spiritually. The flesh body nothing happened to.

It's hard to believe that we are righteous when we are in the flesh still. My spirit is righteous, and communes with God. My flesh is stupid but he does know he is not righteous yet. I guess that happens at the rapture when we get transformed in the twinkling of an eye.

But, I am the righteousness of God, in spirit and in Christ and this is how God sees me.

Don't have an identity crises, lol.

 

[brightfame52]

No, as the love our Lord gave doesn't constrain all for whom he died,

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2Cor.5:14

Okay you said NO, then that means you deny the saving efficacy of the death of Christ. PERIOD !

Its plain as day that the many for whom Christ died, obeyed for, shall be made righteous, by that One obedience, not two Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[journeyman]

Okay you said NO, then that means you deny the saving efficacy of the death of Christ. PERIOD !

You deny the constraint the love of Christ causes.

Its plain as day that the many for whom Christ died, obeyed for, shall be made righteous, by that One obedience, not two Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Sin isn't inherited. It's committed. Beside this, you've turned men punishing God into God punishing his Son. Disgusting heresy.

 

[rogerg]

Sin isn't inherited. It's committed. Beside this, you've turned men punishing God into God punishing his Son. Disgusting heresy.

Heresy? No, it was clearly the culmination of God's plan of salvation. To say otherwise is the heresy.

[Mat 16:21-23 KJV]
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

[Mar 8:31-33 KJV]
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

 

[rogerg]

Beside this, you've turned men punishing God into God punishing his Son. Disgusting heresy.

It was the Father's will:

[Mat 26:39, 42 KJV]
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. ...
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

 

[journeyman]

Heresy? No, it was clearly the culmination of God's plan of salvation. To say otherwise is the heresy.

[Mat 16:21-23 KJV]
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Suffer many things from who?

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

A) God savors adversity, hatred, abuse, against himself.
or
B) God savors restraint, patience, lonsuffering, when faced with adversity against himself.

Calvanists believe A is the right answer.
They're wrong. B is correct and it interprets all scripture correctly.

[Mar 8:31-33 KJV]
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

He was going to Jerusalem to do what three things described in this verse? Listen carefully.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Peter didn't want Jesus to go without a fight. Peter wanted our gentle Savior to kill his adversaries,

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Jn.10:18

Jesus (God) stopped Peter. You don't understand why. You think it's A. You're wrong. It's B.

 

[brightfame52]

You deny the constraint the love of Christ causes.

Sin isn't inherited. It's committed. Beside this, you've turned men punishing God into God punishing his Son. Disgusting heresy.

You deny the saving death of Christ, so how do you believe in Christ when you deny that His death saves? Faith believes that His death saves them!

 

[journeyman]

It was the Father's will:

[Mat 26:39, 42 KJV]
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. ...
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

It was,
A) The Fathers' will for the Son to suffer injustice.
or
B) The Fathers' will for the Son to suffer injustice patiently.

Calvanists believe A. B is correct.


But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1Pet.2:20-21

And Jesus told them all,

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, Mt.20:23

 

[rogerg]

Peter didn't want Jesus to go without a fight. Peter wanted our gentle Savior to kill his adversaries,

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Jn.10:18

Jesus (God) stopped Peter. You don't understand why. You think it's A. You're wrong. It's B.

Oh my! Jesus told Peter He was going to Jerusalem to be killed and that it was the Father's that
it should happen. You deny clearly written scripture. You are trying to change God's
plan of salvation into one of your own - one that you find palatable, but God does not.

Obedient unto whom? Unto God the Father.

[Phl 2:8 KJV] 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[Col 1:20 KJV] 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Christ's death took the ordinances of the law and nailed them to the cross. Had He not died in that manner, it would not have happened

[Col 2:14 KJV] 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

"BE KILLED"

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Peter tried to stop Jesus from going but Jesus told Peter in no uncertain terms that it was the Father's will that Christ should suffer that fate

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

 

[journeyman]

You deny the saving death of Christ, so how do you believe in Christ when you deny that His death saves? Faith believes that His death saves them!

I believe Gods' perspective, is that while he walked on earth as a man, he put to death the fleshly desire to kill his enemies, to take over the world by force. I believe this was the mental assault laid against our dear Lord by the devil in the garden,

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation Mt.26:41

Peter was sleeping. Peter was tempted and failed, but he came to understand the grace of God, which is even though Christ had every right to put sinners to death according to the law, he didn't enforce the law against them

For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1Per.3:17

 

[rogerg]

But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 1Pet.2:20-21

The point is that it was the Father's will that Christ be put to death on the cross
as it was a part of His offering for sin.
"For doing right": suffering for the sake of Christ and His gospel:

"it is given..... to suffer for his sake"
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It was the Father's will that Christ be put to death for the offences of those to be saved. By being
delivered in such a manner, He was raised demonstrating the justification it provides. You do not find
"delivered for our offenses, and was very nice about it, and being nice justified those He would save"

delivered for our offenses - > raised for justification. nothing besides that was germane.

[Rom 4:25 KJV]
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[journeyman]

Oh my! Jesus told Peter He was going to Jerusalem to be killed and that it was the Father's that
it should happen.

Jesus told Peter that, because that's what the scriptures say,

The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed.

You understand what "against Father and Son" means.

You deny clearly written scripture. You are trying to change God's
plan of salvation into one of your own - one that you find palatable, but God does not.

I find the good news that Jesus didn't wipe out people who sinned against him in horrific ways very palatable. I find the good news that God will forgive anyone who confesses and forsakes sin committed against him and his anointed very palatable.

Obedient unto whom? Unto God the Father.

Yes, showing how his Father patiently endures wrongdoing against himself, without destroying the sinners.

[Phl 2:8 KJV] 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Exactly! As a man, our Lord did not do what the Judge of all the earth had every right to do. He could have killed them right there,

Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. Exo.23:7

There are six things the LORD hates...
hands that shed innocent blood...a heart that devises wicked schemes Pro.6:16-18
He's saying he despises what was done to his Son.

[Col 1:20 KJV] 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Christ's death took the ordinances of the law and nailed them to the cross. Had He not died in that manner, it would not have happened

[Col 2:14 KJV] 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

He nailed the ordinances which were "against us" to the cross. The ordinances which condemn false witnesses and those who slay the innocent.

"BE KILLED"

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Peter tried to stop Jesus from going but Jesus told Peter in no uncertain terms that it was the Father's will that Christ should suffer that fate

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Yes and if God hadn't endured the sins of men against himself, if he hadn't put the law to death, that would have been the end of those who condemned him.

 

[journeyman]

The point is that it was the Father's will that Christ be put to death on the cross
as it was a part of His offering for sin.
"For doing right": suffering for the sake of Christ and His gospel:

And God teaches how the sinners response to having wronged him is,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

"it is given..... to suffer for his sake"
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It was the Father's will that Christ be put to death for the offences of those to be saved. By being
delivered in such a manner,

Yes, in such a manner. This "manner" is called, turning the other cheek to the max.
Now think about that when you look at how Peter went to his death,

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psa.116:15

He was raised demonstrating the justification it provides.

He was raised demonstrating the injustice done to him,

Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? Jn.8:46

If he was guilty of sin, he'd still be in the ground.

You do not find
"delivered for our offenses, and was very nice about it, and being nice justified those He would save"

delivered for our offenses - > raised for justification. nothing besides that was germane.

[Rom 4:25 KJV]
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And no one is justified without faith in him.....which faith is the result of the Spirits' work.....in raising Christ from death.....so

that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21

Cause - He is risen.
Effect - Faith in him.

 

[Hopeful]

1) the devil does not do signs and wonders in the name of Jesus, it is contrary to his purposes to do so. The sign or wonder would bring glory to Jesus.

Matt 7:22-23..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Who actually did the "works" of those in iniquity?

2) yes, repentance must be genuine in order to be accepted by God.
3) If anyone truly has the Holy Spirit, they are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

Amen.

 

[Hopeful]

It is impossible for true faith - a true faith in Christ, that is - to exist within someone unless saved and born again by God. Natural man of himself is completely unable to either comprehend or have true faith in the gospel of God. The only way for that to change is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Please read these verses carefully. Their importance should not be missed or understated. They define and bring to light the spiritual state of the unsaved - a state we were all in before salvation. Being spiritually dead and blind in sin, they are completely unable to comprehend (or to "hear") the gospel (not having spiritual ears) in order to do what you suggested above they can do.

I've posted these verses many, many times before and for some reason are usually ignored. I'm hoping they can make an impression with you.


[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul wasn't born again, and didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost, when he decided to obey Jesus, on the road to Damascus.
You keep putting the horse in front of the cart.