Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

I find the good news that Jesus didn't wipe out people who sinned against him in horrific ways very palatable. I find the good news that God will forgive anyone who confesses and forsakes sin committed against him and his anointed very palatable.

Jesus will wipe out in horrific ways all of the unsaved. It just that it wasn't His time to do so then for the sake of the Father's promise made to Abraham for those of his spiritual seed yet to be born. No one can confess and forsake sin unless born again - with the sin being the rejection of Christ as the only Saviour begotten of God the Father.

Yes, showing how his Father patiently endures wrongdoing against himself, without destroying the sinners.

See the above re: the destroying of sinners.

Exactly! As a man, our Lord did not do what the Judge of all the earth had every right to do. He could have killed them right there,

And He WILL DO so, at a time of His choosing. The judgment wasn't dispensed with, only to be executed at
a time so chosen for it. That judgment, when it occurs, will be far worse than just bodily death.
Bodily death is trivial compared to the second death. Anyway, all die bodily sooner or later, which, they of
that particular event, already have. So, as they weren't immediately destroyed then, nevertheless, the same end has come upon them - they gained nothing.

He nailed the ordinances which were "against us" to the cross. The ordinances which condemn false witnesses and those who slay the innocent.

Which required that Jesus be crucified. The ordinances were those that lead someone to working for their
salvation, instead of trusting completely in Christ as Saviour to provide salvation.

Yes and if God hadn't endured the sins of men against himself, if he hadn't put the law to death, that would have been the end of those who condemned him.

No, at a time of God's choosing, the second death will come upon all of the unsaved. They've escaped
absolutely nothing - absolutely nothing has changed.

You seem to want to change the gospel into a humanistic, secular gospel, instead of a gospel of the spiritual which it is. The worst eventually that could ever happen to someone in the physical realm, is meaningless next to the terrible events that will befall the unsaved in the spiritual realm at the appropriate time. Compared to it, physical death will be just a walk in the park.

 

[rogerg]

Paul wasn't born again, and didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost, when he decided to obey Jesus, on the road to Damascus.
You keep putting the horse in front of the cart.

Haven't we been through all this before? He clearly was born again then - Christ as God, is also the Holy Spirit, and is evidenced by that the whole event. That it occurred, was of his becoming born again, especially "his eyes were opened" and Saul said, " what shall I do, Lord", and Jesus, in His spiritual form, told him, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest". It just doesn't get more being born again than that. Saul then followed the instructions given him by Jesus to "go to Damascus to do the things that are "APPOINTED for thee to do". Where do you find that Saul went to Damascus because of his own decision - he followed the orders of Jesus who is God - he had no choice but to follow them. From that moment on, Saul became forever changed - and that change is the very definition of becoming born-again.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe Gods' perspective, is that while he walked on earth as a man, he put to death the fleshly desire to kill his enemies, to take over the world by force. I believe this was the mental assault laid against our dear Lord by the devil in the garden,

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation Mt.26:41

Peter was sleeping. Peter was tempted and failed, but he came to understand the grace of God, which is even though Christ had every right to put sinners to death according to the law, he didn't enforce the law against them

For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1Per.3:17

When its all said and done, you have publicly admitted that you dont believe Christs death saved them He died for.

 

[journeyman]

Jesus will wipe out in horrific ways all of the unsaved.

He now does what he has always done,

There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3-5

Except the Witness is God himself, not just any prophet.

It just that it wasn't His time to do so then for the sake of the Father's promise made to Abraham for those of his spiritual seed yet to be born. No one can confess and forsake sin unless born again - with the sin being the rejection of Christ as the only Saviour begotten of God the Father.

Some of the people responsible for condeming Christ repented 1st and received the Spirit after that (Acts 2:36-38.)

See the above re: the destroying of sinners.


And He WILL DO so, at a time of His choosing. The judgment wasn't dispensed with, only to be executed at
a time so chosen for it. That judgment, when it occurs, will be far worse than just bodily death.
Bodily death is trivial compared to the second death. Anyway, all die bodily sooner or later, which, they of
that particular event, already have. So, as they weren't immediately destroyed then, nevertheless, the same end has come upon them - they gained nothing.

I did. I repented before I died in sin. And I think I mentioned to you before how the final destruction will be caused by mortal coming face to face with the Immortal. Like the ark of the covenant, or God on Mt. Horeb, anyone not permitted got fried.

Which required that Jesus be crucified. The ordinances were those that lead someone to working for their
salvation, instead of trusting completely in Christ as Saviour to provide salvation.

Which I've pointed out to you that Gods' purpose for the law wasn't to proclaim mankinds righteousness, but Gods',

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. Rom.5:20

David learned this and said,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa.51:4

Do you know how David despised what he did to Christ? This is why he said,

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psa.19:7

I told you this before and you ignored it. So why bother looking at what Paul and David were really saying? Maybe someone else will see the truth of all Gods' word.

No, at a time of God's choosing, the second death will come upon all of the unsaved. They've escaped
absolutely nothing - absolutely nothing has changed.

I escaped. I truly understand that I had nothing to say in my defense and still don't. I do understand that because Jesus gave me time to repent, he has given me his Spirit, which if followed, will conform us into his Image...and sometimes his image will suffer abuse.

You seem to want to change the gospel into a humanistic, secular gospel, instead of a gospel of the spiritual which it is.

Oh no my friend. The humanist, secular gospel says, "Screw God, we'll live how we want", which is how the Lamb wound up on the cross. Of course it goes without saying, the Lamb allowed this sin against himself. See, Calvanists point to Christs' sacrifice, until the reason for the sacrifice is enjoined.

The worst eventually that could ever happen to someone in the physical realm, is meaningless next to the terrible events that will befall the unsaved in the spiritual realm at the appropriate time. Compared to it, physical death will be just a walk in the park.

That's for keeps!

 

[heartwashed]

Matt 7:22-23..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Who actually did the "works" of those in iniquity?

I stand corrected.

 

[heartwashed]

heartwashed


Absolutely false and scripture never says that ! Man by nature is spiritually dead and has no Spiritual fruit. At best the only faith/believing the natural man has is that equal with devils James 2:9

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



How can one have Faith, the fruit of the Spirit, without being born again ? Once a person is born again, given faith, then they by faith go to the throne of grace



Its access to the throne of Grace by Faith.


False teaching, dead people cant make Spiritual decisions, spiritually dead people cant believe in Jesus Christ, at least not the Jesus Christ of the scripture. Believing in a jesus that supposedly died for all humanity isnt believing in Jesus. And being drawn to Christ is regeneration.



False statement, regeneration and being drawn to Christ are the same thing.

Being drawn to Christ and regeneration are not the same thing; give chapter and verse that says otherwise.

People who are spiritually dead can be "woken up" (as they are drawn to Christ) at which point they have the option of going back into the sleep of death or else waking up entirely (Ephesians 5:14).

We have access to grace itself (and thus being born again) through faith. If initial faith is a fruit of the Spirit, then one can be born again apart from that initial faith. Because they got that intitial faith from being born again; and therefore how did they become born again? Certainly not from initial faith.

Nevertheless the scripture teaches, that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Can a person be born again apart from faith? It is false teaching to say that they can.

Therefore a person is not born again unto having faith in Jesus Christ; rather they believe in Jesus Christ unto being born again (the basic concept of John 3:16).

 

[journeyman]

When its all said and done, you have publicly admitted that you dont believe Christs death saved them He died for.

Them he died for who will not be saved were given opportunity tp repent and chose not to,

The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Mt.12:41

 

[Hopeful]

Haven't we been through all this before? He clearly was born again then

If he had already been reborn, what happened to the old Paul?

- Christ as God, is also the Holy Spirit, and is evidenced by that the whole event. That it occurred, was of his becoming born again, especially "his eyes were opened" and Saul said, " what shall I do, Lord", and Jesus, in His spiritual form, told him, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest". It just doesn't get more being born again than that. Saul then followed the instructions given him by Jesus to "go to Damascus to do the things that are "APPOINTED for thee to do". Where do you find that Saul went to Damascus because of his own decision - he followed the orders of Jesus who is God - he had no choice but to follow them. From that moment on, Saul became forever changed - and that change is the very definition of becoming born-again.

Paul was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life at his baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That was recounted in Acts 22:16.
It is detailed by Paul in Rom 6:3-4.

 

[heartwashed]

Matt 7:22-23..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Who actually did the "works" of those in iniquity?

I stand corrected.

Although, it may be that Jesus honoured His name and did the works of those who were also workers of iniquity in spite of the fact that they were workers of iniquity; and because they were utilizing His name.

 

[brightfame52]

The born again believer was granted God given Faith by Grace, in order to believe in Jesus Christ for his or her Salvation, so believing in this regard is not a work of man but a Gift from God to him by Grace. 24

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

Being drawn to Christ and regeneration are not the same thing;

Yes they are

give chapter and verse that says otherwise.

There isnt one. Do you have one that says specifically they are not the same thing ?

People who are spiritually dead can be "woken up"

False, God quickens them to life when they are dead Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

at which point they have the option of going back into the sleep of death or else waking up entirely (Ephesians 5:14).

False, aint no such teaching here about any options

 

[Randy]

The born again believer was granted God given Faith by Grace, in order to believe in Jesus Christ for his or her Salvation, so believing in this regard is not a work of man but a Gift from God to him by Grace. 24

The Apostles didn't start out as born again and neither did we. The outward presence of the Spirits witness comes first, as in those who listen and learn from the Father GO to Jesus.

The bottom line is WE don't know who, (according to your belief of Gods predetermination of choice), God has selected. So the gospel message should be preached to all as "whosoever" calls on the Lord shall find salvation. We will have to disagree on the already predetermined outlook.

 

[brightfame52]

heartwashed

We have access to grace itself (and thus being born again) through faith. If initial faith is a fruit of the Spirit, then one can be born again apart from that initial faith. Because they got that intitial faith from being born again; and therefore how did they become born again? Certainly not from initial faith.

False

Nevertheless the scripture teaches, that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Sure the Justified believer does. This doesnt help your false concepts

Can a person be born again apart from faith? It is false teaching to say that they can.

A person cant have faith until they are born again, Faith isa fruit of being born of the Spirit

Therefore a person is not born again unto having faith in Jesus Christ; rather they believe in Jesus Christ unto being born again (the basic concept of John 3:16).

False,, A Person cant have Faith until after being born again.

 

[brightfame52]

Them he died for who will not be saved were given opportunity tp repent and chose not to,

The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Mt.12:41

More denying the saving death of Christ !

 

[heartwashed]

The born again believer was granted God given Faith by Grace, in order to believe in Jesus Christ for his or her Salvation, so believing in this regard is not a work of man but a Gift from God to him by Grace. 24

Yes, from one perspective (the perspective of eternity) that is true.

God looks down the annals of time and sees who will receive Him; and bestows grace upon them; and they receive faith as a result.

From another perspective (the perspective of time), we do not have access to grace except through faith (Romans 5:2).

 

[heartwashed]

There isnt one. Do you have one that says specifically they are not the same thing ?

No. But the fact that there is no scripture that supports your point of view means that you cannot unequivocally say that it is true...therefore I ask you to consider my point of view a little further.

Sure the Justified believer does.

The way into the mansion is through the door...Jesus Christ. The key to that door is faith.

In this very biblical analogy, a person gains access to the mansion (grace) because of faith; and before gaining access to grace they were outside the mansion.

A person cant have faith until they are born again, Faith isa fruit of being born of the Spirit

A person can obtain faith by simply believing the message when it is preached to them (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 4:2). They become born again through that faith (John 3:16).

False,, A Person cant have Faith until after being born again.

False. A person cannot be born again except through faith.

If what you say is true, a person can be born again apart from faith. And that, my friend, is contrary to everything that the Bible teaches.

 

[brightfame52]

The Apostles didn't start out as born again and neither did we. The outward presence of the Spirits witness comes first, as in those who listen and learn from the Father GO to Jesus.

The bottom line is WE don't know who, (according to your belief of Gods predetermination of choice), God has selected. So the gospel message should be preached to all as "whosoever" calls on the Lord shall find salvation. We will have to disagree on the already predetermined outlook.

Nobody starts out born again, we all start out spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until God gives us a New Birth. After the New Birth we can believe in Jesus !

 

[Randy]

No. But the fact that there is no scripture that supports your point of view means that you cannot unequivocally say that it is true...therefore I ask you to consider my point of view a little further.



The way into the mansion is through the door...Jesus Christ. The key to that door is faith.

In this very biblical analogy, a person gains access to the mansion (grace) because of faith; and before gaining access to grace they were outside the mansion.



A person can obtain faith by simply believing the message when it is preached to them (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 4:2). They become born again through that faith (John 3:16).


False. A person cannot be born again except through faith.

If what you say is true, a person can be born again apart from faith. And that, my friend, is contrary to everything that the Bible teaches.

I assume you define born again as Christ in us.
This is cohesive with faith coming from hearing the word of God not the new creation.(Christ in Us)
And the gospel is preached to all. Again you don't know who, per your belief, who God as predetermined to be saved.
John 17:20
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message.
Romans10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

God teaches all but not all listen.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

This was still in the future when Jesus told His apostles/disciples.
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

 

[Randy]

Nobody starts out born again, we all start out spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until God gives us a New Birth. After the New Birth we can believe in Jesus !

I believed in Christ BEFORE Christ was in me. - My testimony

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, from one perspective (the perspective of eternity) that is true.

God looks down the annals of time and sees who will receive Him; and bestows grace upon them; and they receive faith as a result.

From another perspective (the perspective of time), we do not have access to grace except through faith (Romans 5:2).

False