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Is believing/faith a work ?

heartwashed said:
No. But the fact that there is no scripture that supports your point of view means that you cannot unequivocally say that it is true...therefore I ask you to consider my point of view a little further.



The way into the mansion is through the door...Jesus Christ. The key to that door is faith.

In this very biblical analogy, a person gains access to the mansion (grace) because of faith; and before gaining access to grace they were outside the mansion.



A person can obtain faith by simply believing the message when it is preached to them (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 4:2). They become born again through that faith (John 3:16).


False. A person cannot be born again except through faith.

If what you say is true, a person can be born again apart from faith. And that, my friend, is contrary to everything that the Bible teaches.
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Drawing and the New Birth are one and the same, and one cant believe in Jesus Christ, theTrue Jesus Christ that is, until they are born again.
 
brightfame52 said:
False
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Nope.
brightfame52 said:
Drawing and the New Birth are one and the same, and one cant believe in Jesus Christ, theTrue Jesus Christ that is, until they are born again.
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It should be clear that the new birth takes place when a person receives Jesus as Lord and Saviour (John 1:12) and that they are enabled to do that when they are drawn to Christ; which is not regeneration or the new birth; because a person being drawn has the option of rejecting Jesus and therefore they are enabled to receive Jesus by being drawn and the new birth or regeneration only takes place when the person receives Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

If being born again comes before faith, then faith isn't necessary for salvation; that is something that is completely contrary to evangelism and the teaching of the Bible; it is false teaching.
 
brightfame52 said:
What Christ do you believe in ? Who is He, what did He accomplish and for who did He accomplish it ? There are many false christs today.
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I know that I believe in Jesus Christ as He is defined for me in holy scripture.

But I do believe that the Jesus that you are purporting is not the Jesus Christ of holy scripture.

There are too many verses that contradict the Calvinistic point of view for me to ever believe in it.
 
heartwashed said:
Nope.

It should be clear that the new birth takes place when a person receives Jesus as Lord and Saviour (John 1:12) and that they are enabled to do that when they are drawn to Christ; which is not regeneration or the new birth; because a person being drawn has the option of rejecting Jesus and therefore they are enabled to receive Jesus by being drawn and the new birth or regeneration only takes place when the person receives Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

If being born again comes before faith, then faith isn't necessary for salvation; that is something that is completely contrary to evangelism and the teaching of the Bible; it is false teaching.
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All what you say is false and tends to glorify man.
 
brightfame52 said:
All what you say is false and tends to glorify man.
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Even if that is the case (what I am saying tends to glorify man), what I am saying is the truth.

What you teach makes God responsible for millions burning in hell for all of eternity; they go there by his arbitrary decision.

At least in my teaching, man is responsible for the choices that he makes; and he does not go to hell unless he is found guilty of rejecting Christ.

He can save himself (Acts 2:40 (kjv)) by receiving Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12).

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

If he calls on the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Acts 4:10-12), he shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

Have you done that?

The rest of our argument can be put aside if you will answer this one question.

If you have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour then your beliefs on Calvinism make no difference to me.

But if your beliefs about Calvinism are giving you an excuse to reject Jesus, then that is to your eternal condemnation.
 
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heartwashed said:
Even if that is the case (what I am saying tends to glorify man), what I am saying is the truth.

What you teach makes God responsible for millions burning in hell for all of eternity; they go there by his arbitrary decision.

At least in my teaching, man is responsible for the choices that he makes; and he does not go to hell unless he is found guilty of rejecting Christ.

He can save himself (Acts 2:40 (kjv)) by receiving Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12).

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

If he calls on the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Acts 4:10-12), he shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

Have you done that?

The rest of our argument can be put aside if you will answer this one question.

If you have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour then your beliefs on Calvinism make no difference to me.

But if your beliefs about Calvinism are giving you an excuse to reject Jesus, then that is to your eternal condemnation.
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You continue to glorify man !
 
journeyman said:
The death of our Lord shows,

his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering Rom.2:4

count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. 2Pet.3:15

Calvanists seem oblivious to the sin Christ endured.
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Yet you refuse to believe that His death saved anyone, so how is that Faith in the Saviour, if you don't believe His Blood alone saved them He shed it for ?
 
Hopeful said:
Paul was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life at his baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That was recounted in Acts 22:16.
It is detailed by Paul in Rom 6:3-4.
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No, that is not what Acts 22:16 is saying. On the surface it may seem so, but upon deeper
examination, it does not.

[Act 22:16 KJV] 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

First, "wash away" is not the same word as "forgive" if that's what you're implying. To "wash away" is to have one's sinful beliefs washed away by the water of the truth of the gospel and in the receiving of it; that is, through the preaching and teaching of the gospel (and through the Holy Spirit), Paul's understanding/ beliefs/perceptions changed regarding the basis of salvation as a man cannot forgive his own sins, but which would have been the case and Christ would not be the Saviour, had "wash away" meant forgive. Paul's sin which was to be "washed away" was his belief from within by his old conscience - a sinful belief in law and works for salvation (which up to then had been the foundation of his life), unto a belief in Christ as Saviour. However, only by first being forgiven, was it possible for it to be washed away, otherwise, impossible. This is an entirely different matter than of God forgiving one's sins. The washing away came after his salvation which had already occurred, and through salvation alone, was sin his forgiven -- the washing away was not that.
Second, the "baptism", was a baptism unto the name of the Lord Jesus, but only as a physical and symbol act (having no spiritual efficacy of itself), and was not true spiritual baptism, which baptism was placed upon his spirit by the Holy Spirt, not upon his flesh. We know this because the baptism of the verse was from a man to a man, not from God to a man. This spiritual baptism had already occurred on the road to Damascus from God.
Third, "calling on the name of the Lord", would occur through his newly acquired faith in the Lord which was imparted to him through the Holy Spirit and realized by him by preaching/teaching. Through the presence of the Holy Spirit, that teaching found place within him, and by that, his conscience came to know Jesus Christ, and he called upon the name of the Lord. It is by this same cause that everyone who becomes saved calls upon the name of the Lord - there is no other way to know the Lord but by becoming saved.
Fourth, in Acts 9:18 even before Paul's baptism, the scales fell from Paul's eyes. Since it was before his physical baptism, scales falling from his eyes signifying that the Holy Spirit (who had been given unto Paul on the road to Damacus) was already present within Paul and no one besides Jesus Christ had caused it. We can know this, because man cannot dictate to God or force when someone is to be baptized in the spirit.

I don't understand your reference to Rom 6: 3- 4 - relates to Acts.

[1Pe 3:21 KJV]
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[Heb 10:2, 22 KJV]
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. ...
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[2Co 1:12 KJV] 12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

[1Ti 1:5 KJV] 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

[Tit 1:15 KJV]
15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

[Heb 9:9, 14 KJV]
9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; ...
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[1Co 12:13 KJV]
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[1Co 1:2 KJV] 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
 
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rogerg said:
No, that is not what Acts 22:16 is saying. On the surface it may seem so, but upon deeper
examination, it does not.

[Act 22:16 KJV] 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

First, "wash away" is not the same word as "forgive" if that's what you're implying. To "wash away" is to have one's sinful beliefs washed away by the water of the truth of the gospel and in the receiving of it; that is, through the preaching and teaching of the gospel (and through the Holy Spirit), Paul's understanding/ beliefs/perceptions changed regarding the basis of salvation as a man cannot forgive his own sins, but which would have been the case and Christ would not be the Saviour, had "wash away" meant forgive. Paul's sin which was to be "washed away" was his belief from within by his old conscience - a sinful belief in law and works for salvation (which up to then had been the foundation of his life), unto a belief in Christ as Saviour. However, only by first being forgiven, was it possible for it to be washed away, otherwise, impossible. This is an entirely different matter than of God forgiving one's sins. The washing away came after his salvation which had already occurred, and through salvation alone, was sin his forgiven -- the washing away was not that.
Second, the "baptism", was a baptism unto the name of the Lord Jesus, but only as a physical and symbol act (having no spiritual efficacy of itself), and was not true spiritual baptism, which baptism was placed upon his spirit by the Holy Spirt, not upon his flesh. We know this because the baptism of the verse was from a man to a man, not from God to a man. This spiritual baptism had already occurred on the road to Damascus from God.
Third, "calling on the name of the Lord", would occur through his newly acquired faith in the Lord which was imparted to him through the Holy Spirit and realized by him by preaching/teaching. Through the presence of the Holy Spirit, that teaching found place within him, and by that, his conscience came to know Jesus Christ, and he called upon the name of the Lord. It is by this same cause that everyone who becomes saved calls upon the name of the Lord - there is no other way to know the Lord but by becoming saved.
Fourth, in Acts 9:18 even before Paul's baptism, the scales fell from Paul's eyes. Since it was before his physical baptism, scales falling from his eyes signifying that the Holy Spirit (who had been given unto Paul on the road to Damacus) was already present within Paul and no one besides Jesus Christ had caused it. We can know this, because man cannot dictate to God or force when someone is to be baptized in the spirit.

I don't understand your reference to Rom 6: 3- 4 - relates to Acts.

[1Pe 3:21 KJV]
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[Heb 10:2, 22 KJV]
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. ...
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[2Co 1:12 KJV] 12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

[1Ti 1:5 KJV] 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

[Tit 1:15 KJV]
15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

[Heb 9:9, 14 KJV]
9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; ...
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[1Co 12:13 KJV]
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[1Co 1:2 KJV] 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
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I do believe that in Acts 2:38-39 there is a conditional promise that is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Now compare Romans 8:30. If you have not been called, you were never predestined, have not been justified and will not be glorified.

So, I would suggest not taking any chances and that you "get this one done" by fulfilling the condition to the promise.

In doing so, you will ensure that you have been called and will procure for yourself justification and glorification in the Lord.
 
heartwashed said:
So, I would suggest not taking any chances and that you "get this one done" by fulfilling the condition to the promise.

In doing so, you will ensure that you have been called and will procure for yourself justification and glorification in the Lord.
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heartwashed said:
I do believe that in Acts 2:38-39 there is a conditional promise that is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Now compare Romans 8:30. If you have not been called, you were never predestined, have not been justified and will not be glorified.

So, I would suggest not taking any chances and that you "get this one done" by fulfilling the condition to the promise.

In doing so, you will ensure that you have been called and will procure for yourself justification and glorification in the Lord.
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Well, thanks for the advice, but He has already determined who would be called - it's a done deal. By the very fact of trying to do something for it, we demonstrate that we aren't of it.
BTW, in 2:38, it is Jesus Christ who brings the remission of sins, not by baptism.
Should we believe that baptism or any else for that matter is needed from someone to become saved/born again, then we are still under law and therefore in great spiritual jeopardy indeed.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yet you refuse to believe that His death saved anyone,
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Many churchgoers have never heard how Christ chose to bear the sins inflicted on him by sinners without retailiation, so that they would know he offers forgivness to the repentant.
brightfame52 said:
so how is that Faith in the Saviour, if you don't believe His Blood alone saved them He shed it for ?
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His blood is his life, not his death. We're saved because he's God. He is lufe.
 
rogerg said:
Well, thanks for the advice, but He has already determined who would be called - it's a done deal. By the very fact of trying to do something for it, we demonstrate that we aren't of it.
BTW, in 2:38, it is Jesus Christ who brings the remission of sins, not by baptism.
Should we believe that baptism or any else for that matter is needed from someone to become saved/born again, then we are still under law and therefore in great spiritual jeopardy indeed.
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I have said my piece, and am not inclined to argue with you.

You are now responsible for the information that I have given to you; which is biblical information; and therefore based in truth.
 
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rogerg said:
BTW, in 2:38, it is Jesus Christ who brings the remission of sins, not by baptism.
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For the sake of the readers I feel compelled to quote the verses so that they can see for themselves whether what you are saying is true or not.

Act 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 
heartwashed said:
Have you received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour?

Yes or no?
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I dont know, what Jesus do you mean ? Describe the one you talking about in detail. Exactly who is he, what did he accomplish, why, and for who ? Be detailed because there are many false christs being preached.
 
journeyman said:
Many churchgoers have never heard how Christ chose to bear the sins inflicted on him by sinners without retailiation, so that they would know he offers forgivness to the repentant.

His blood is his life, not his death. We're saved because he's God. He is lufe.
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I dont know what all that suppose to mean, nevertheless, you said Christs death in and of itself saves no one ? That doesnt sound right to me, I agree with Paul Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

In essence Paul is saying the Cross Work of Christ saved him ! It agrees with what he wrote in Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I dont believe you share the same Faith in Christs death to save, as Paul and myself do !
 
brightfame52 said:
I dont know, what Jesus do you mean ? Describe the one you talking about in detail. Exactly who is he, what did he accomplish, why, and for who ? Be detailed because there are many false christs being preached.
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Read your Bible and receive the Jesus that is described for you there.

Have you done that?

I think that you have not; because it seems to me that your Jesus isn't the Jesus of the Bible.

But I would suggest that you pray a prayer such as is follows:

"Dear Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is described for me in the Bible, I call on Your name for salvation from sin."

Have you done that?

If you haven't, then you are not born again.

If you don't know the Bible well enough to know the details of who He is, it suffices that you accept Him as the Jesus of the Bible. You will then get to know Him by reading your Bible on a daily basis.

You may have received the Jesus of the Bible and yet have an inaccurate understanding of what the Bible says about Him. Keep reading, until you understand who He is more accurately.

Pro 3:5, Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6, In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
 
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