Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

You address result, not cause.

[2Ti 1:9-11 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

[2Ti 4:17 - 18 KJV]
17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Hopeful]

Friend, we cannot be saved through law-keeping, works, or personal merit (see Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16).

None of my friends advocate disobeying God in order to get eternal life.
You have taken the anti-Law keeping dogma further than anyone I have met.
Paul preached against keeping the Law in order to be saved.
Primarily circumcision and dietary rules, but also feast keeping and sabbath observances.
But he himself taught on the good effects of repentance from sin and water baptism.
If you think that telling the truth or not killing someone is against the will of God, you are greatly deceived.
Those reborn of God do these things naturally, as they are ingrained in the divine nature of all those reborn of God's seed.

If you are trying to enter into the kingdom that way, you must keep the law perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10).

That is true, but the only Law of Christ is this...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Turning from sin, (repentance from sin), and getting your past sins washed away in the name of Jesus Christ are not a part of the Mosaic Law.
But they are necessary for a man to become a Christian and to be reborn.

We tell the truth once we have been saved by grace through faith; we are regenerated and renewed on the inside so that we abhor lying.

How were you regenerated?
Did someone tell you you had to be regenerated?

But those who are not born again, their inclination is to love a lie. No amount of truth-telling will save them therefore because in their heart they are inclined towards loving and making a lie.

Got that right.

Outward obedience does not produce an inward change.

Got that right, but inward change does produce outward obedience...to God.

However, an inward change does produce outward obedience.

OK, so, do you still commit sins?
(1 Cor 15:34)

 

[rogerg]

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

You forgot verse 44: No one can come to Jesus unless first is sent by the Father to Him. Therefore, logically speaking,
those who do not have true faith in Jesus, do not, because they were not sent by the Father to Him, and were not
taught by the Father.

The hearing is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[Hopeful]

The principle can be found in Ephesians 2:8-10.

OK, thanks.
"For good works" makes more sense that "unto good works"...as I have always read "unto" as "up to", or, "until".

 

[Hopeful]

. The Jesus I believe in died only and specifically for Gods elect. And His death for them saved them completely ! Do you believe in the same Jesus I do ?

I am glad I elected to obey God !!!
But still, the day of judgement will determine if I am saved or not.
That may be a long way off.

 

[Hopeful]

Past sins? What about the current and future? How
do you believe those are remitted? What does "complete obedience" mean?

Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit more sins, as His seed cannot bear liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. (1 John 3:9-10)
Besides, more sin would prove your repentance from sin to be a lie.
We can't forge or strengthen a relationship with God that is based on lies.

 

[rogerg]

Those reborn of God's seed cannot commit more sins, as His seed cannot bear liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. (1 John 3:9-10)
Besides, more sin would prove your repentance from sin to be a lie.
We can't forge or strengthen a relationship with God that is based on lies.

Question: can those who are not under law commit sin?

 

[Hopeful]

So, you're saying that the Bible should be changed to remove the verses with "eternal life"?

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

"Ordained to eternal life"...if they remain faithful until their judgement on the last day.
Why hope for something we already have?
It is written..."For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" (Rom 8:24)
There is still a race to be won. (1 Cor 9:24-25)

 

[Hopeful]

Question: can those who are not under law commit sin?

Sin shows they are still under the Law, as..."For by the Law is the knowledge of sin". (Rom 3:20)
Those not under the Law have been made dead to the Law, by the water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Rom 6:3-7, Rom 7:4)
Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
With no "flesh" or lusts, there is no sinning. (James 1:14-15)

So, those not under Law cannot commit sin.
They walk in the Spirit, and with a divine nature.

 

[rogerg]

"Ordained to eternal life"...if they remain faithful until their judgement on the last day.

Nuh-uh - not even close, and you can do better than that.
Those who truly believe, truly believe, solely BECAUSE they have been ordained to eternal life; that is, those, and only those ordained to eternal life are MADE to believe, solely because of being ordained.
The ordination came first as the cause, true belief comes afterwards as its result.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Hopeful]

Nuh-uh - not even close, and you can do better than that.
Those who truly believe, truly believe, solely BECAUSE they have been ordained to eternal life; that is, those, and only those ordained to eternal life are MADE to believe, solely because of being ordained.
The ordination came first as the cause, true belief comes afterwards as its result.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You don't believe there will be a judgement on the last day?
Jesus said..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)

God doesn't pre-select who will live forever and who has to go to hell.

 

[rogerg]

Sin shows they are still under the Law, as..."For by the Law is the knowledge of sin". (Rom 3:20)
Those not under the Law have been made dead to the Law, by the water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Rom 6:3-7, Rom 7:4)
Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
With no "flesh" or lusts, there is no sinning. (James 1:14-15)

So, those not under Law cannot commit sin.
They walk in the Spirit, and with a divine nature.

As I'm sure you know, I don't believe that water baptism provides any spiritual efficacy whatsoever. That notwithstanding, those who are saved cannot sin, not because they don't commit sin according to what would be of the old law that has been done away with, but because, judgment cannot be levied against anyone saved. If it could be, then salvation would be impossible for anyone. So, that leaves us with the immense question of: for those saved, if under Christ that all sin is remitted, then, logically speaking, it can only be that not being under Christ is sin, since, by that, the law of Christ becomes violated, correct? And the flesh, and the lusts thereof, must be that which is the opposite of Christ, which are our works for salvation instead of Christ.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rogerg]

God doesn't pre-select who will live forever and who has to go to hell.

Did you not read that verse? Those who are ordained to eternal life believe. True belief is only from being ordained.

[2Th 2:11, 13-14 KJV]
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: ...
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

Those who are ordained to eternal life believe. True belief is only from being ordained.

Amen and thats Christs Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They had been ordained to eternal life Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Correct, no man has the ability to come to Christ which means believe in Him, except God intervenes with special grace, and makes them alive, by giving them life, in giving them life, the person receives spiritual responsiveness, enabling them to have spiritual eyes to see Jn 6:40, ears to hear, and Faith to understand to believe in the true Jesus Christ. This is the fruit of the drawing !

 

[The Gallant Saint]

My 2c: Believing/faith is not a work.

One can claim to have all the faith in the world, faith as strong as ten bears, but if it does not compel one to action, then it is meaningless.

The Bible is clear throughout the OT and NT: faith is measured/demonstrated by works. Abraham, Daniel, etc.. even the Centurion, even the bleeding woman who touched Jesus' garment, even the thief next to Jesus on the cross.

Faith must manifest in deeds/works. Jesus and the Torah taught us to "love our neighbors as ourselves" - He then gave us the example of the Good Samaritan. This is an example (His expectation) of how we are to manifest that law of loving our neighbors as ourselves. Also in that parable, the Levite priest, who crossed to the other side of the road to avoid dealing with the dying man, all his supposed faith is rendered to nought - because he did not exercise the commandment.

The parable of the goats and the sheep is another. On Judgement Day, we will be judged by our works.

 

[Hopeful]

As I'm sure you know, I don't believe that water baptism provides any spiritual efficacy whatsoever.

Too bad, as it is the means of our remission of sins, and our circumcision of the body of the sins of the flesh, and the death of the old man of sin, and our entrance into Christ.

That notwithstanding, those who are saved cannot sin, not because they don't commit sin according to what would be of the old law that has been done away with, but because, judgment cannot be levied against anyone saved. If it could be, then salvation would be impossible for anyone. So, that leaves us with the immense question of: for those saved, if under Christ that all sin is remitted, then, logically speaking, it can only be that not being under Christ is sin, since, by that, the law of Christ becomes violated, correct? And the flesh, and the lusts thereof, must be that which is the opposite of Christ, which are our works for salvation instead of Christ.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If they sin, they are under the Law.
As water baptism provides our way of death, it is also our way of death to the Law.
You won't be saved until you hear that your name is in the book of life, on the last day.

 

[Hopeful]

Did you not read that verse? Those who are ordained to eternal life believe. True belief is only from being ordained.

[2Th 2:11, 13-14 KJV]
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: ...
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I rejoice that God has from the beginning chosen sanctification of the Spirit and belief as our means of conversion.

Too bad you don't trust the means of our salvation and freedom from sin.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Can someone who has been sanctified commit sin?
No.
So, if you do commit sin it is obvious you are not sanctified.

 

[Hopeful]

roger



Correct, no man has the ability to come to Christ which means believe in Him, except God intervenes with special grace, and makes them alive, by giving them life, in giving them life, the person receives spiritual responsiveness, enabling them to have spiritual eyes to see Jn 6:40, ears to hear, and Faith to understand to believe in the true Jesus Christ. This is the fruit of the drawing !

So it is God's fault so many are still in service to sin?
I wonder why He ordained a day of judgement if He already knows who He picked to suffer eternal torment?

 

[heartwashed]

If you think that telling the truth or not killing someone is against the will of God, you are greatly deceived.

No, it is not against the will of God...these things simply don't have the power to save a man.

That is only accomplished through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Those reborn of God do these things naturally, as they are ingrained in the divine nature of all those reborn of God's seed.

Amen, these things are the result of genuine salvation, not the cause.

That is true, but the only Law of Christ is this...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Read Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6. Loving God and neighbor results in obeying the law...as the law is the details of the love of God.

How were you regenerated?
Did someone tell you you had to be regenerated?

I read a book entitled "Writing with Power" because I wanted my vocation to be a writer. The book advises that when you write, there is a demon or stag on your shoulder that you sometimes cooperate with and other times struggle against to produce what is called "voice" in your writing.

Well. I used the techniquies in the book to produce a gruesome poem as an assignment for my Creative Writing Class in High School. When I read it to that class, I received much applause and the teacher then went through the poem line-by-line, saying that if he had not seen me in the process of writing it, he would have thought that I had plagiarized it from Edgar Allen Poe or one of the great writers of the past. He said that the rhyming was like icing on the cake.

I went home that night and was tempted to sell my soul to the devil.

However, I had heard the gospel 4 years earlier, and I remembered a Bible verse, "What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul?"

I couldn't sit on the fence any longer. I said to God, "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You are real, You will reveal Yourself to me."

God didn't even wait two seconds to make Himself known. He poured His Spirit down upon me in waves of liquid love.

OK, so, do you still commit sins?
(1 Cor 15:34)

If I said that I didn't, I wouldn't be perfect (Philippians 3:12-15 (kjv)).

But still, the day of judgement will determine if I am saved or not.

You can know that you know that you know that you are saved in the present moments (1 John 5:13, Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

Everlasting life begins at the moment of first faith (John 5:24).