Is believing/faith a work ?

[Randy]

You forgot verse 44: No one can come to Jesus unless first is sent by the Father to Him. Therefore, logically speaking,
those who do not have true faith in Jesus, do not, because they were not sent by the Father to Him, and were not
taught by the Father.

The hearing is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The Spirit bears witness. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
Peter learned or knew this from God.
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Faith first then receive Christ a faith that comes from hearing the word of God.

 

[Randy]

You address result, not cause.

[2Ti 1:9-11 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

[2Ti 4:17 - 18 KJV]
17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I addressed his use of race in context.

 

[Randy]

My God is concerned. Yours apparently is indifferent to the many

Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not

Its in Christ that we live and no one comes to the Father except by Him.
Christ Jesus is very much our Savior. He purchased us for God by His blood. We believe in Him and received Him by that faith. And we serve/worship God in the new way of the Spirit not by the written code. A Spirit that is gifted to us by God.

Jesus responds to our faith in Him.
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

But the main difference seen between us is in the Love of God.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Israel was Gods chosen but God was concerned for others.
should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals

There are about 8 billion people in the world. Should God not be concerned about them all?

 

[brightfame52]

randy

Jesus responds to our faith in Him.

Thats not biblical, Jesus is the author of the believers Faith in Him Heb 12:2

You speaking salvation by reward, God rewarding something that man does, in this case a persons faith or act of believing!

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Thats because He saw His own gift of Faith in them which He gave him along with forgiveness' of sins, apparently this man was one Christ died for Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission/forgiveness of sins.

Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

I know you probably believe that Jesus forgives you as He responds to your act of believing, thats works reward

There are about 8 billion people in the world. Should God not be concerned about them all?

Only a remnant is He concerned for. Rom 9:27

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And that remnant is according to the grace of election Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

roger

Correct, no man has the ability to come to Christ which means believe in Him, except God intervenes with special grace....

See, this is the error of Calvanism, because the special grace of God is seen in how Jesus withheld his wrath against sinners who brutalized him, who sinned against him,

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit.2:11

 

[Randy]

randy



Thats not biblical, Jesus is the author of the believers Faith in Him Heb 12:2

You speaking salvation by reward, God rewarding something that man does, in this case a persons faith or act of believing!



Thats because He saw His own gift of Faith in them which He gave him along with forgiveness' of sins, apparently this man was one Christ died for Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission/forgiveness of sins.

Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

I know you probably believe that Jesus forgives you as He responds to your act of believing, thats works reward



Only a remnant is He concerned for. Rom 9:27

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And that remnant is according to the grace of election Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The forgiveness of sins can't be earned or purchased by money. It can be received "freely" through faith in Christ.
Such faith is NOT reward based as you define. The Spirit bears witness and the gospel is preached to the whole world. The message can be understood by any.

The Love of God is greater than your theology.

 

[rogerg]

Peter learned or knew this from God.
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Faith first then receive Christ a faith that comes from hearing the word of God.

No, God revealed it to Peter. Had He not, then Peter would have remained in darkness

[Mat 16:17 KJV]
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So, at this point, Randy, I see that what I've posted to you, you are unable to accept. That
being the case, I don't see much use right now in continuing with this dialogue.

 

[Randy]

No, God revealed it to Peter. Had He not, then Peter would have remained in darkness

[Mat 16:17 KJV]
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So, at this point, Randy, I see that what I've posted to you, you are unable to accept. That
being the case, I don't see much use right now in continuing with this dialogue.

I accept you don't know Gods love thus my Jesus.

 

[Randy]

No, God revealed it to Peter. Had He not, then Peter would have remained in darkness

[Mat 16:17 KJV]
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So, at this point, Randy, I see that what I've posted to you, you are unable to accept. That
being the case, I don't see much use right now in continuing with this dialogue.

Yes and He wasn't born of God as Jesus sent that gift to us from heaven.

 

[rogerg]

Yes and He wasn't born of God as Jesus sent that gift to us from heaven.

Jesus was/is God. And Peter was born of God, because by that, was it revealed it to him,
as Jesus informed us that God had revealed it to him.
The Holy Spirit has been present with those saved since the beginning of time, Psa. 51:11 informs of that below.
The Holy Spirit was present with Peter. Jesus informs of that in Jhn. 14:17 below.
The point is that for anyone to obtain a true faith in/understanding of Jesus, it must be revealed to them by God.
Had God not revealed to Peter, then Peter could not have gained that understanding.

[Jhn 14:17 KJV]
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

This one too:

[Gen 41:38 KJV] 38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?

 

[rogerg]

I accept you don't know Gods love thus my Jesus.

Well, only those whom the Lord directs to the love of God, find it.
Of ourselves, no one can find it. As with everything of salvation, it must be as
the gift of God

[2Th 3:5 KJV] 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

 

[Randy]

Jesus was/is God. And Peter was born of God, because by that, was it revealed it to him,
as Jesus informed us that God had revealed it to him.
The Holy Spirit has been present with those saved since the beginning of time, Psa. 51:11 informs of that below.
The Holy Spirit was present with Peter. Jesus informs of that in Jhn. 14:17 below.
The point is that for anyone to obtain a true faith in/understanding of Jesus, it must be revealed to them by God.
Had God not revealed to Peter, then Peter could not have gained that understanding.

[Jhn 14:17 KJV]
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

This one too:

[Gen 41:38 KJV] 38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?

Shall be in you - future tense. I have stated one can have faith in Christ from the OUTWARD witness of the Spirit. THEN by/through that faith receive Christ and become born of God. Those in the OT were not born again. The vail in the holy of holies was torn in two at Christs last breath.
God spoke of that inward cirumcision or writing of a new covenant on the hearts of the people . Jesus introduced that covenant in His blood.

 

[brightfame52]

See, this is the error of Calvanism, because the special grace of God is seen in how Jesus withheld his wrath against sinners who brutalized him, who sinned against him,

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit.2:11

Again no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him Jn 6:44 The drawing is Gods special grace , Spiritual power.

 

[brightfame52]

The forgiveness of sins can't be earned or purchased by money. It can be received "freely" through faith in Christ.
Such faith is NOT reward based as you define. The Spirit bears witness and the gospel is preached to the whole world. The message can be understood by any.

The Love of God is greater than your theology.

Forgiveness of sins, was earned by Christ for His Israel, and He gives it to them along with repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He gives them gifts to them, not offer, not make them available, He gives them to them, because He is their Prince [Head] and Saviour. Note: The only way a person can repent is if Christ saves them !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes and He wasn't born of God as Jesus sent that gift to us from heaven.

He Peter was born of God, for certainly he was one of those referred to in John 1:11-13 during Christs Ministry

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you deny Peter received Jesus and believed on His Name ?

 

[Randy]

Forgiveness of sins, was earned by Christ for His Israel, and He gives it to them along with repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He gives them gifts to them, not offer, not make them available, He gives them to them, because He is their Prince [Head] and Saviour. Note: The only way a person can repent is if Christ saves them !

I would state a person is a slave to sin unless Jesus frees them but baptism into Christ was shown as a outward pledging of a clear conscience towards God and people were capable of repenting before God before Christ came down its only in Christ that sin is "removed."

 

[Randy]

He Peter was born of God, for certainly he was one of those referred to in John 1:11-13 during Christs Ministry

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Do you deny Peter received Jesus and believed on His Name ?

Acts 1:4 As in the Spirit shall be in you.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about

 

[Hopeful]

No, it is not against the will of God...these things simply don't have the power to save a man.

They do if you adhere to them, as liars are not going to heaven.

That is only accomplished through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Those with faith will only tell the truth.
Those not telling the truth don't have faith.

Amen, these things are the result of genuine salvation, not the cause.

My salvation won't be determined until the last day, so how can anything here and now be a "result" of it?

Read Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6. Loving God and neighbor results in obeying the law...as the law is the details of the love of God.

Agreed.

I read a book entitled "Writing with Power" because I wanted my vocation to be a writer. The book advises that when you write, there is a demon or stag on your shoulder that you sometimes cooperate with and other times struggle against to produce what is called "voice" in your writing.

Well. I used the techniquies in the book to produce a gruesome poem as an assignment for my Creative Writing Class in High School. When I read it to that class, I received much applause and the teacher then went through the poem line-by-line, saying that if he had not seen me in the process of writing it, he would have thought that I had plagiarized it from Edgar Allen Poe or one of the great writers of the past. He said that the rhyming was like icing on the cake.
I went home that night and was tempted to sell my soul to the devil.
However, I had heard the gospel 4 years earlier, and I remembered a Bible verse, "What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul?"
I couldn't sit on the fence any longer. I said to God, "I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You are real, You will reveal Yourself to me."
God didn't even wait two seconds to make Himself known. He poured His Spirit down upon me in waves of liquid love

God be praised.
I hope you found someone that baptized you pretty soon after that, as those who wait weeks and months to crucify the flesh and get raised with Christ to walk in newness of life almost always go back into sin.

If I said that I didn't, I wouldn't be perfect (Philippians 3:12-15 (kjv)).

The "perfection" Paul refers to there is the perfection of the resurrected body/man.
Verse 21 is the synopsis..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
It has nothing to do with living perfectly without sin.

You can know that you know that you know that you are saved in the present moments (1 John 5:13, Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

Good verses, and very comforting, BUT...Eph 1:13-14..."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."...is just a promise of an inheritance, and not the actual inheritance, so it will be wise to watch one's Ps and Q's until our time is up.

Everlasting life begins at the moment of first faith (John 5:24).

It certainly can mean that, but until it is accomplished, finished, you don't know how life will turn out.
I will continue to run the race, as who knows who might be "faster" in the long run.

 

[rogerg]

hall be in you - future tense.

"dwelleth": present tense

but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you

 

[rogerg]

Shall be in you - future tense. I have stated one can have faith in Christ from the OUTWARD witness of the Spirit. THEN by/through that faith receive Christ and become born of God. Those in the OT were not born again. The vail in the holy of holies was torn in two at Christs last breath.
God spoke of that inward cirumcision or writing of a new covenant on the hearts of the people . Jesus introduced that covenant in His blood.

What does the outward witness of the Spirit even mean? Does it mean signs, wonders and miracles? If so, then no, it would be impossible to garner true faith from that. Were it possible, then the Jews of the exodus who had observed first-hand God's power, might, and miracles, to include the hearing of God's own voice by the mount that burned, and it being a sight so terrible that even Moses said that he exceedingly feared and quaked, the Jews should have unconditionally, permanently, followed after God. Therefore, based upon your theory of OT faith if true, and seeing and hearing what they did, they should never have never strayed unto false gods, nor to not worship the one true God. But nevertheless, stray they did. So, your theory (if I've described it correctly), cannot possibly be right. Demonstrations of any kind, even those directly from/by God, but being without the Holy Spirit present, could not/did not bring them to faith. Faith isn't an intellectual process it is a spiritual gift. To have faith, one must have Christ. To receive Christ is from the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself is the sole author and finisher of faith.


[Deu 4:11-13 KJV]
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

[Heb 12:20-21 KJV]
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


Didn't you read the verses I posted or are you ignoring them? They clearly state that the Holy Spirit was with those saved during the OT. If the Spirit didn't change their hearts and minds, then no outward demonstrations would do so and would be meaningless to them. Only the presence of the Spirit being with an individual had made that happen, man, either in OT or NT, of himself, could not achieve it.

The Holy Spirit was in David DURING the OT.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit was in Abraham DURING the OT
[Gen 41:38 KJV] 38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?