Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

You're free to believe everyone on earth who never heard the name of Jesus is damned, but our Savior taught sinners to love God first and neighbor as self, which some have done on every continent in every age.

God sends the Gospel to whoever needs to hear it, He knows where they are, He put them where they are. Acts 17:24-26

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

 

[rogerg]

I never said there were all given eternal life. I said our Lord said they would be at the great judgment and condemn the people hearing him who didn't repent, because Christ is greater than Jonah and Jonah didn't preach Jesus (as you misunderstand him) to Nineveh.

I don't understand your point. Were they saved by what they did or not? If not, what would
their rising up in judgment mean if they themselves are condemned?

No. Sinners are saved by believing the teachings of Jesus, because of what he accomplished.

No, those saved are saved only because God had chosen them to salvation and
by no actions of theirs. The belief of those saved is not in themselves by the following of law for salvation, but in Christ as being their Saviour in all ways, and that belief given to them as a gift from God through the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I just gave you the example of Jonah. Why don't you actually look at the passage Peter Jens cited from Ezekiel, because that's exactly what Jesus followed as a man. In Christs' righteousness, he delivered his own soul. The only way sinners are saved by him is by turning from sin. As Mr. Jens said, God never changes.

I showed that God's law and covenant were changed by God upon the completion of the offering of Christ. Here:

Heb 7:11-12, 18-19 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And here:

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I just gave you the example of Jonah. Why don't you actually look at the passage Peter Jens cited from Ezekiel, because that's exactly what Jesus followed as a man. In Christs' righteousness, he delivered his own soul. The only way sinners are saved by him is by turning from sin. As Mr. Jens said, God never changes.

Incorrect. Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God sends the Gospel to whoever needs to hear it, He knows where they are, He put them where they are. Acts 17:24-26

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Acts 17 says the reason God appointed times and boundries was so, "That they should seek the Lord" (vs.27).

Paul says God overlooked the Greeks idolatry, but since the Messiah has appeared,

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: vs.30

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't understand your point. Were they saved by what they did or not? If not, what would
their rising up in judgment mean if they themselves are condemned?

They're not condemned. They heeded the word of the Lord. He's saying the Ninevites believed a prophet inferior to himself.

No, those saved are saved only because God had chosen them to salvation and
by no actions of theirs. The belief of those saved is not in themselves by the following of law for salvation, but in Christ as being their Saviour in all ways, and that belief given to them as a gift from God through the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Here's the work of the Spirit,

the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Jn.14:10

The Spirit doesn't force anyone to believe or disbelieve.

I showed that God's law and covenant were changed by God upon the completion of the offering of Christ. Here:

Heb 7:11-12, 18-19 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

As previously discussed, Moses peeached Christ to Israel, but you ignore it.

And here:

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Again, "in Christ Jesus means "walk after the Spirit." By the Spirit, our Lord as a man, condemned, put to death, the fleshly response of seeking retribution against sinners. God himself, as a man, condemned nobody, even thought he had the right to do so.

Incorrect. Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The "righteousness of God" is that God, as a man, couldn't be rightfully condemned. Although he was wrongfully treated as a sinner, he withheld judgment against the guilty and believers follow his example.

 

[PeterJens]

No, read those laws closely. Paul was placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: BY THE LAW OF CHRIST ITSELF and not by anything that Paul did

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul uses this argument on this subject
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Rom 13:8-10

I do not understand your point, because it is quite simple what Paul is saying. Love fulfills the law.
Another time Paul makes this point about the value of the law,

9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
1 Tim 1:9-11

The key issue missed by some is the law is a signpost of spiritual reality. It tells you where you are, not how to change.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit through the gospel into our hearts to affect change through obedience, love and grace.

I am struck therefore in knowing I am chosen and yet I also choose, I am led and yet I also follow. In some aspects the blind cannot see and those who see cannot stop seeing. Peter described this as looking in a mirror, how can you forget? Now people do walk away, get dispirited and upset, which I understand.

Today I felt overwhelmed. One brother has a brain tumour, maybe benign or cancerous, he is now disabled and possibly facing terminal decline. His heart is in turmoil over what he has lost and how in his 50's things are being taken away. Another faithful brother is in a nursing home at 93, with very limited support or freedom, staring at others in the room day in day out. Meeting these folk broke my heart. But as a house group we brought them to the Lord, in their difficult situation, and also the blessing they have been to others in the past.

It is easy at a distance to say "Gods will" dominates, while up close, it is very humbling. We have choices of support and reaching out a helping hand, or shutting down and staying remote. This is a real choice. I pray we might all learn how to face our fears and learn to follow Jesus as His ministers through us to others.

God bless you

 

[rogerg]

I do not understand your point, because it is quite simple what Paul is saying. Love fulfills the law.
Another time Paul makes this point about the value of the law,

Yes, but that is the earthly law (for lack of a better phrase), which law, those saved should endeavor to follow, but the doing of which having no spiritual efficacy. From a good heart it should be followed, but nevertheless, it will not bring salvation, and any attempt to trust in it for that purpose brings only judgement, not justification. Nothing a man is capable of doing, can achieve it - only Christ's offering for sin for those He had so chosen, brings that.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
1 Tim 1:9-11

Well, those verses say the law is not for the righteous. The righteous are only those made righteous through Christ.
Notice the "made righteous" below. They contribute nothing to it but instead were MADE righteous by Christ alone.

[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

he key issue missed by some is the law is a signpost of spiritual reality. It tells you where you are, not how to change.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit through the gospel into our hearts to affect change through obedience, love and grace.

Again, through salvation and the fruit of the Spirit, people's hearts are changed, but only FROM salvation,
not as a vehicle TO salvation. Should the anyone interpret the law as a standard to be achieved in any sense for salvation, those who trust in that way are under law not under grace.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I am struck therefore in knowing I am chosen and yet I also choose, I am led and yet I also follow. In some aspects the blind cannot see and those who see cannot stop seeing. Peter described this as looking in a mirror, how can you forget? Now people do walk away, get dispirited and upset, which I understand.

You chose BECAUSE you were chosen, you weren't chosen because you chose.

It is easy at a distance to say "Gods will" dominates, while up close, it is very humbling. We have choices of support and reaching out a helping hand, or shutting down and staying remote. This is a real choice. I pray we might all learn how to face our fears and learn to follow Jesus as His ministers through us to others.

We have been instructed and entrusted with the very great responsibility by God to bring the gospel in its entirety as it is set-forth by the Bible alone. It should not be a question of the emotions of the moment, although I do understand how you felt and that it is very easy to become caught up in them. However, the foundation and apex of the gospel is Jesus Christ alone as Saviour and that man is not. It should only be conveyed in that manner.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I am struck therefore in knowing I am chosen and yet I also choose,

God determined from the beginning the type of person who would be saved, not the individual.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, but that is the earthly law (for lack of a better phrase), which law, those saved should endeavor to follow, but the doing of which having no spiritual efficacy. From a good heart it should be followed, but nevertheless, it will not bring salvation, and any attempt to trust in it for that purpose brings only judgement, not justification. Nothing a man is capable of doing, can achieve it - only Christ's offering for sin for those He had so chosen, brings that.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 3:10 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.



Well, those verses say the law is not for the righteous. The righteous are only those made righteous through Christ.
Notice the "made righteous" below. They contribute nothing to it but instead were MADE righteous by Christ alone.

[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Again, through salvation and the fruit of the Spirit, people's hearts are changed, but only FROM salvation,
not as a vehicle TO salvation. Should the anyone interpret the law as a standard to be achieved in any sense for salvation, those who trust in that way are under law not under grace.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



You chose BECAUSE you were chosen, you weren't chosen because you chose.



We have been instructed and entrusted with the very great responsibility by God to bring the gospel in its entirety as it is set-forth by the Bible alone. It should not be a question of the emotions of the moment, although I do understand how you felt and that it is very easy to become caught up in them. However, the foundation and apex of the gospel is Jesus Christ alone as Saviour and that man is not. It should only be conveyed in that manner.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

There is a point here which is often not seen clearly.
We have free will, we are capable of leaving the Lord, which is the nature of love, but because we walk in His ways and His spirit, we hold fast to who He is and the nature of love itself. A rope has many strands and each strand takes weight. So we are chosen and we also choose. Without the light of Christ we would be blind, and while we see we can move ahead. The problem we have is we want to define in detail only that which the Lord sees and knows.

We need to acknowledge the the world is lost, but not without knowledge and goodness being known and felt. Jesus called us being a light, salt which preserves good things in life. We start as children with an optimistic and integrated view of life bonded to our mother and father. For most it goes down hill from there. Depravity starts as we try and meet our needs in the closest highs we can get to offset the cruel world. Trouble is without love at work in us and cleansing us we will always end up more destroyed than when we started.

Our salvation is always Jesus, and everything that flows from Him. To remove God from our transformation denies the power of Christ to save sinners, and therefore puts a door in front of progress.

Emotions are scary things, because we know we are our emotional state. We deny this so deeply we talk as if emotions are just the highs and lows in each day, and not our fundamental being. If our emotional core is shaken, unless we are founded on the rock of Jesus, we will collapse. So I realise unless a believer has met Christ at this emotional and intense way, they are vulnerable. Peter put is this way,

10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin.
2 Peter 1:10

Peter knew His calling was emotional, and Jesus knew Him completely. If ones theology or position moves one away from the love of Christ and His people, danger lies close at hand. It is scary to choose to be hurt, to risk getting involved, and to know when to draw back. Jesus knew this and showed in with the apostles, especially Judas and Peter. I am often torn between seeing believers as they are, and seeing Jesus and His perfection. But we need both,
God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

God determined from the beginning the type of person who would be saved, not the individual.

This is certainly a point I have been pondering. A psychopath is missing empathy with others and appears incapable of feeling what other feel. They can manipulate others because they can fake attention because they have nothing to emotionally lose, and target people who have something they want.

Jesus works with empathy and understanding and desiring the best for others.
Jesus calls those who are prepared to renounce the world and its ways and walk in His.
It strikes me that there are all different personality types in this group, from the ridiculous extrovert to the very timid and quiet. So I am not sure there is a type that is rejected other than sinners who have not repented and believed.

God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Acts 17 says the reason God appointed times and boundries was so, "That they should seek the Lord" (vs.27).

Paul says God overlooked the Greeks idolatry, but since the Messiah has appeared,

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: vs.30

Sir, God knows how to get the Gospel to who needs to hear it, He knows where they are, He put them there by His providence. The Gospel is sent by God, not some idiot who dont know what they doing.

Acts 13:26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

 

[rogerg]

There is a point here which is often not seen clearly.
We have free will, we are capable of leaving the Lord, which is the nature of love, but because we walk in His ways and His spirit, we hold fast to who He is and the nature of love itself. A rope has many strands and each strand takes weight. So we are chosen and we also choose. Without the light of Christ we would be blind, and while we see we can move ahead. The problem we have is we want to define in detail only that which the Lord sees and knows.

How is it possible for anyone who is spiritually dead to have free will? Until becoming born-again as natural man, we love and follow after Satan and his gospel, therefore, we first must be given spiritual life and are kept in the faith of Jesus by God: it comes not of, nor from, ourselves but of God. Things spiritual are not a question of emotion nor of feeling, but solely of God.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[journeymanisnothing]

This is certainly a point I have been pondering. A psychopath is missing empathy with others and appears incapable of feeling what other feel. They can manipulate others because they can fake attention because they have nothing to emotionally lose, and target people who have something they want.

Jesus works with empathy and understanding and desiring the best for others.
Jesus calls those who are prepared to renounce the world and its ways and walk in His.
It strikes me that there are all different personality types in this group, from the ridiculous extrovert to the very timid and quiet. So I am not sure there is a type that is rejected other than sinners who have not repented and believed.

God bless you

Thank you and may God bless you also.
I wasn't referring to personality, as believers and unbelievers may be out going or shy.
I agree our Lord works with the greatest of caring. I sure people aren't born into this world without the capacity to show caring.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Sir, God knows how to get the Gospel to who needs to hear it,

Yes he does and the world needed to hear it,

this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nation Mt.24:14

He knows where they are, He put them there by His providence. The Gospel is sent by God, not some idiot who dont know what they doing.

Acts 13:26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

And in Acts 13, some of the Jews he sent the word of salvation to rejected it. The only people in Acts 13 who received the word were Jews and gentiles who already feared God.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

How is it possible for anyone who is spiritually dead to have free will?

Correct when unregenerate and spiritually dead, our will is controlled by our sinful dead nature Eph 2:2-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word desires is actually the will, so all we could do is fulfill the will of the flesh, does that sould like a freewill ? No

Until becoming born-again as natural man, we love and follow after Satan and his gospel, therefore, we first must be given spiritual life and are kept in the faith of Jesus by God: it comes not of, nor from, ourselves but of God. Things spiritual are not a question of emotion nor of feeling, but solely of God.

Exactly !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes he does and the world needed to hear it,

this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nation Mt.24:14

And in Acts 13, some of the Jews he sent the word of salvation to rejected it. The only people in Acts 13 who received the word were Jews and gentiles who already feared God.

As a word of Salvation its sent to them that fear God, of the seed of abraham who are regenerated. Acts 13:25-25

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

As a word of Salvation its sent to them that fear God, of the seed of abraham who are regenerated. Acts 13:25-25

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

And some of them rejected the word of this salvation,

They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. vs.45

 

[GodsGrace]

This is certainly a point I have been pondering. A psychopath is missing empathy with others and appears incapable of feeling what other feel. They can manipulate others because they can fake attention because they have nothing to emotionally lose, and target people who have something they want.

Jesus works with empathy and understanding and desiring the best for others.
Jesus calls those who are prepared to renounce the world and its ways and walk in His.
It strikes me that there are all different personality types in this group, from the ridiculous extrovert to the very timid and quiet. So I am not sure there is a type that is rejected other than sinners who have not repented and believed.

God bless you

I don't think journeyman meant the personality of a person.

He means as I always say:

God decided before the beginning HOW a man would be saved....
Is he a believer or an unbeliever?

NOT WHO would be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

As a word of Salvation its sent to them that fear God, of the seed of abraham who are regenerated. Acts 13:25-25

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

You see Bright, the very verses you post speak of how incorrect your theology is.

Acts 13:26
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

First Paul addressed his Jewish brethren telling them of the great believers and faithful of the past.
Then he addresses the Greeks:
WHOSOEVER among you feareth God...

Again we see the word WHOSOEVER...
As in John 3:16

Are you saying that those Greeks WERE ALREADY SAVED...
and Paul was preaching to them needlessly?

No. He was preaching to them to bring them the good news of the risen Christ.
Through HIM all sin can be forgiven...

Acts 13:38 KJV
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Through Jesus, sins can be forgiven.

Again, why preach this if the person does not have the ability to decide for Jesus?
Because ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, believeth shall be saved.

A prescriptive statement.

 

[brightfame52]

And some of them rejected the word of this salvation,

They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. vs.45

No they didnt. Impossible for they were saved by it, God was announcing to them their Salvation, it was a done deal. Now them who contradicted were not of the ones who feared God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No they didnt. Impossible for they were saved by it, God was announcing to them their Salvation, it was a done deal. Now them who contradicted were not of the ones who feared God.

A whole lot of twisting going on...