Is believing/faith a work ?

[journeymanisnothing]

No they didnt. Impossible for they were saved by it, God was announcing to them their Salvation, it was a done deal. Now them who contradicted were not of the ones who feared God.

I know that. Why did some fear God, while others didn't? Look at the text,

God raised himfrom the dead:.....Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 30,35vss.

They realized the psalm was speaking of Jesus. Peter said the same thing,

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act.2:27

So what happens after that? Some of them repented, because David rotted long ago and they knew it.

 

[rogerg]

No they didnt. Impossible for they were saved by it, God was announcing to them their Salvation, it was a done deal. Now them who contradicted were not of the ones who feared God.

Right, brightframe52. I guess those who disagree with you don't understand these verses:

[Rom 4:16, 21 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, ...
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If salvation includes anyone who is able to generate faith by their choice (were that possible), and not solely as a gift from God, then there would/could be no seed, nor promise made, because there would be no spiritual linage from Abraham; that is, both alternatives cannot coexist at the same time : it must be either solely by promise, or by solely by choice, the two being mutually exclusive of each other.
Therefore, for a promise to have been made, and for it to be sure, and sure to only the seed, it could only have encompassed certain specific individuals - to those whom God had chosen for such, and had promised that He, Himself, would bring them to salvation ("to perform"): the spiritual seed. Otherwise, that promise could not have been made by God as the outcome could not have been guaranteed by God as a promise - but it was made as a promise by God. By saying "seed", the promise then eliminated everyone BUT THE SEED, and it goes without saying that no one of themselves, can make themselves of a seed.

 

[brightfame52]

I know that. Why did some fear God, while others didn't? Look at the text,

God raised himfrom the dead:.....Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 30,35vss.

They realized the psalm was speaking of Jesus. Peter said the same thing,

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act.2:27

So what happens after that? Some of them repented, because David rotted long ago and they knew it.

Some fear God because God has regenerated them and given them a new heart, thats the only way a sinner can fear God.

 

[PeterJens]

How is it possible for anyone who is spiritually dead to have free will? Until becoming born-again as natural man, we love and follow after Satan and his gospel, therefore, we first must be given spiritual life and are kept in the faith of Jesus by God: it comes not of, nor from, ourselves but of God. Things spiritual are not a question of emotion nor of feeling, but solely of God.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

There is a problem here in terms of the meaning of free will. Most of what we do is motivated by our feelings and our perception. So we can choose what we do, ie exercise free will, but the reason we do things and how we do them comes from who we are. We therefore are trapped within ourselves and will continually fail.

Following after satan and his gospel is not how I would classify the world. Lost, unable to know which way is up and how to achieve it, seems better. Satan exploits people and miss-leads them, but most of the time this is not voluntary. Paul described the world and its lostness like this

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Rom 1:22-25

People without God at their centre are focused on their desires and their fulfilment in the flesh. In this world if all you have is yourself, then narcissism will be where you end up. Emotions will dominate without forgiveness or resolution, ones own feelings become King, and rule, blotting out the good that once had balance and control.

Even in this state the Lord can reach out and pluck people from despair if they are willing to call out and ask for help.
God bless you

 

[rogerg]

Even in this state the Lord can reach out and pluck people from despair if they are willing to call out and ask for help.
God bless you

Only those of the spiritual seed of Abraham become saved - that they call-out is from their salvation, not to their salvation - hence the "of the promise" part of Rom 9:8 - they specifically are within - are a part of, God's promise - not everyone is.

 

[PeterJens]

Only those of the spiritual seed of Abraham become saved - that they call-out is from their salvation, not to their salvation - hence the "of the promise" part of Rom 9:8 - they specifically are within - are a part of, God's promise - not everyone is.

I stand on the fence about this, because you are talking about things from Gods point of view.
I am merely called to be a witness and let my light shine.

Everyone is able to answer Gods calling, and all are called, but few respond.
As soon as people start to talk about the elect, the chosen, the special, this way of talking and caring excludes those we are called to love and care about. Judas was lost, but Jesus dealt with him the same as all the apostles, which is why the others never knew he would betray Jesus.

What I find mysterious is talking with folk who clearly know scripture well and believe God has saved them yet can hate me and wish me dead. They have not connected their emotional reactions to positions and people testifies to what is in their hearts, not their theology.

A pastor asked someone on a forum if they needed to love other people. You can create a theology where to hate non-believers is fine, because they are the enemies of God. And there is lots of scripture that expresses this antipathy to those who hate believers. But Jesus called us to love our enemies. It is hard because we tend to demonise our enemies not seeing they are often a reflection of ourselves with some minor differences.

The evil of sinners is their lostness and its consequences on their soul. If you have ever talked to an addict, you know the power of the addiction that continually dominates their thoughts and temptations. Without Christ, we are vulnerable to it all as well, but in Him we have a way of victory we can walk and a love that conquers death.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

I don't think journeyman meant the personality of a person.

He means as I always say:

God decided before the beginning HOW a man would be saved....
Is he a believer or an unbeliever?

NOT WHO would be saved.

I agree with this idea, but I have explored what is the nature of this communion with the Lord and our emotional ability to walk as Jesus walked?

In a bible study I raised the question of learning and thinking about who God is and how he works.
I am stunned by His description in the law about sexual behaviour that was approved of and that which is not.
Nowhere else in literature of that time 1700bc is anything similar.

The tribes through which Israel walked were judged because they followed no boundaries and were obviously full of sexually transmitted diseases which is why they were criticised for purposely seducing the men of Israel.

In the temple disabled people and those with deformities could not become priests. So is this also true of certain personality disorders, that they distort the soul so much salvation is not possible?

The point is, not to find a definitive answer, but to explore the struggles of discipleship, addiction, abusive behaviour, ptsd abnormalities etc. The evangelical position has often been we are all born equal, which is clearly not true. We all have variations, some very extreme and others closer to the socially normal.

After living with someone with schizophrenia it makes you wonder at the limits of what is possible and what faith and our walk actually mean. God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, brightframe52. I guess those who disagree with you don't understand these verses:

[Rom 4:16, 21 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, ...
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

If salvation includes anyone who is able to generate faith by their choice (were that possible), and not solely as a gift from God, then there would/could be no seed, nor promise made, because there would be no spiritual linage from Abraham; that is, both alternatives cannot coexist at the same time : it must be either solely by promise, or by solely by choice, the two being mutually exclusive of each other.
Therefore, for a promise to have been made, and for it to be sure, and sure to only the seed, it could only have encompassed certain specific individuals - to those whom God had chosen for such, and had promised that He, Himself, would bring them to salvation ("to perform"): the spiritual seed. Otherwise, that promise could not have been made by God as the outcome could not have been guaranteed by God as a promise - but it was made as a promise by God. By saying "seed", the promise then eliminated everyone BUT THE SEED, and it goes without saying that no one of themselves, can make themselves of a seed.

Who is saying that faith is not a gift???

Also, why do your verses have [ ] your own words added?
You're supposed to post the entire verse, as is stated in the version you're using.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only those of the spiritual seed of Abraham become saved - that they call-out is from their salvation, not to their salvation - hence the "of the promise" part of Rom 9:8 - they specifically are within - are a part of, God's promise - not everyone is.

Ruth was of the spiritual seed of Abraham?

Everyone that lived at the time that was not from the seed of Abraham was LOST??

Could you explain Romans 1:19?

 

[rogerg]

Ruth was of the spiritual seed of Abraham?

Everyone that lived at the time that was not from the seed of Abraham was LOST??

Could you explain Romans 1:19?

Anyone not of the spiritual seed of Abraham remains unsaved.

Regarding Romans 1:19, it is for the same reason that His disciples walked with Him no more in Jhn 6:66: they were blind spiritually

[Jhn 6:66 KJV] 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[rogerg]

Also, why do your verses have [ ] your own words added?
You're supposed to post the entire verse, as is stated in the version you're using.

those aren't my additions, they were added by the translators

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with this idea, but I have explored what is the nature of this communion with the Lord and our emotional ability to walk as Jesus walked?

In a bible study I raised the question of learning and thinking about who God is and how he works.
I am stunned by His description in the law about sexual behaviour that was approved of and that which is not.
Nowhere else in literature of that time 1700bc is anything similar.

The tribes through which Israel walked were judged because they followed no boundaries and were obviously full of sexually transmitted diseases which is why they were criticised for purposely seducing the men of Israel.

In the temple disabled people and those with deformities could not become priests. So is this also true of certain personality disorders, that they distort the soul so much salvation is not possible?

The point is, not to find a definitive answer, but to explore the struggles of discipleship, addiction, abusive behaviour, ptsd abnormalities etc. The evangelical position has often been we are all born equal, which is clearly not true. We all have variations, some very extreme and others closer to the socially normal.

After living with someone with schizophrenia it makes you wonder at the limits of what is possible and what faith and our walk actually mean. God bless you

I would have to say, yes, some personality disorders affect the soul to the point that salvation is not possible.

But let's not get confused with persons that could be saved even though they may not have the concept/or may have a mental or physical disability.

They might have an understanding of God. They might even love Him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Some fear God because God has regenerated them and given them a new heart, thats the only way a sinner can fear God.

The word of God is what regenerates people. After Christs' resurrection, he said,

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:45-47

So in Acts, Peter and Paul bothe taught that David was speaking of Jesus. Peter tells them that they put our Lord to death unjustly. They sinned in murdering Jesus. So they asked,

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act.2:37

and Peter says,

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. vs.38

They came to know how the scriptures tell of mans' unrighteous toward the Father, by how his Son was abused and the love the Father continued to show them through his Son.

That's the truth of the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

Everyone is able to answer Gods calling, and all are called, but few respond.

Only those saved/born again can respond

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

What I find mysterious is talking with folk who clearly know scripture well and believe God has saved them yet can hate me and wish me dead. They have not connected their emotional reactions to positions and people testifies to what is in their hearts, not their theology.

Don't know what you mean. I neither hate you nor wish you dead.

The evil of sinners is their lostness and its consequences on their soul. If you have ever talked to an addict, you know the power of the addiction that continually dominates their thoughts and temptations. Without Christ, we are vulnerable to it all as well, but in Him we have a way of victory we can walk and a love that conquers death.

See the above verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone not of the spiritual seed of Abraham remains unsaved.

Regarding Romans 1:19, it is for the same reason that His disciples walked with Him no more in Jhn 6:66: they were blind spiritually

[Jhn 6:66 KJV] 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Sorry Roger,
I don't understand your reply.

If you want to believe that NO ONE not of the seed of Abraham was not saved, including Ruth, then so be it.
It seems to me that Paul handles this in Romans, but it's not something that seems important.
Those that were supposed to be saved according to God's plan of salvation were, and those that were not, were not.

I don't understand what Romans 1:19 has to do with John 6:66.

2 Corinthians 4:4 is interesting.
It states that satan, the god of this world, has blinded the sight of those that do not believe.

If satan HAS BLINDED the sight of those who do not believe,
does this not mean that they were NOT BORN blind, as calvinism teaches?

If a person is not born blind, it becomes unnecessary for satan to blind them ---
they are already blind.


2 Cor 4:4 correctly states that it's satan that keeps persons away from God.
He is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he will devour.
1 Peter 5:8

 

[GodsGrace]

The word of God is what regenerates people. After Christs' resurrection, he said,

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:45-47

So in Acts, Peter and Paul bothe taught that David was speaking of Jesus. Peter tells them that they put our Lord to death unjustly. They sinned in murdering Jesus. So they asked,

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act.2:37

and Peter says,

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. vs.38

They came to know how the scriptures tell of mans' unrighteous toward the Father, by how his Son was abused and the love the Father continued to show them through his Son.

That's the truth of the gospel.

When the people asked "What shall we do"? (Acts 2:37)
What was the answer?
Peter replied:
REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of your sins,
AND YOU WILL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here's the truth of the gospel:

The ordo salutis is:
REPENT
BE BAPTIZED
RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT


Not the other way around as is stated repeatedly by the reformed when they say that we must have the Holy Spirit first and THEN we'll be able to repent.

 

[brightfame52]

peter jens

There is a problem here in terms of the meaning of free will. Most of what we do is motivated by our feelings and our perception. So we can choose what we do, ie exercise free will, but the reason we do things and how we do them comes from who we are. We therefore are trapped within ourselves and will continually fail.

Our will is under the control of our nature by nature and under the control of a spirit of disobedience, now we freely do its will

Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The only thing that can save us from this plight is found in Vs 1 To be quickened, or simply to be made alive

 

[brightfame52]

peter

So we can choose what we do, ie exercise free will, but the reason we do things and how we do them comes from who we are.

We cant choose beyond the limitations of our nature. If you think differently, you defy Eph 2:2-3

 

[brightfame52]

The word of God is what regenerates people. After Christs' resurrection, he said,

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:45-47

So in Acts, Peter and Paul bothe taught that David was speaking of Jesus. Peter tells them that they put our Lord to death unjustly. They sinned in murdering Jesus. So they asked,

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act.2:37

and Peter says,

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. vs.38

They came to know how the scriptures tell of mans' unrighteous toward the Father, by how his Son was abused and the love the Father continued to show them through his Son.

That's the truth of the gospel.

Like already stated, the word of salvation is sent to them that fear God, the regenerated Acts 13:26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

If a person isnt regenerated already, the word of salvation isnt sent to them. Its sent to them that fear God.

Just like Cornelius, he and his company feared God Acts 10:1-2

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Now God sent Peter to him with the word of Salvation Acts 10:34-36

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

 

[rogerg]

Those that were supposed to be saved according to God's plan of salvation were, and those that were not, were not.

were not/are not/will not

If satan HAS BLINDED the sight of those who do not believe,
does this not mean that they were NOT BORN blind, as calvinism teaches?

Blinded the minds. The minds were/are blinded from inception.

I don't understand what Romans 1:19 has to do with John 6:66.

the minds of both groups were blinded by satan so they could not understand either Christ nor the gospel.
God reveals His glory but because the mind of the unsaved had been/is spiritually blind, they were/are dead spiritually, and therefore, unable to comprehend. As a fallen people, and until becoming saved, we all begin life in that state, from the womb - conceived in spiritual blindness