Is believing/faith a work ?

[GodsGrace]

were not/are not/will not



Blinded the minds. The minds were/are blinded from inception.


the minds of both groups were blinded by satan so they could not understand either Christ nor the gospel.
God reveals His glory but because the mind of the unsaved had been/is spiritually blind, they were/are dead spiritually, and therefore, unable to comprehend. As a fallen people, and until becoming saved, we all begin life in that state, from the womb - conceived in spiritual blindness

The NT says that satan blinds the minds of unbelievers.
When we're born we are not believers nor unbelievers.

Satan has the same ability God has to know who is an unbeliever?
I don't believe this is biblical.
Got is omniscient, satan is not.
God can be everywhere and know all things...satan cannot.

So it would stand to reason that satan is blinding adult unbelievers.
Adults are totally depraved in your paradigm...
so why would satan have to blind them?
You can't be more blind than being totally depraved.

So does satan blind even believers while they are unbelievers?

I find this very confusing, as I do pretty much all of Calvinism.

 

[rogerg]

The NT says that satan blinds the minds of unbelievers.
When we're born we are not believers nor unbelievers.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

So does satan blind even believers while they are unbelievers?

Yes. Everyone from the womb is an unbeliever and remains so until becoming born again by salvation

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I find this very confusing, as I do pretty much all of Calvinism.

Not confusing - it's simple: we as people are fallen from the womb and remain so until saved.
Christ alone is the Saviour in all ways and who gives salvation, we do not.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

When the people asked "What shall we do"? (Acts 2:37)
What was the answer?
Peter replied:
REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of your sins,
AND YOU WILL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here's the truth of the gospel:

The ordo salutis is:
REPENT
BE BAPTIZED
RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT


Not the other way around as is stated repeatedly by the reformed when they say that we must have the Holy Spirit first and THEN we'll be able to repent.

I agree. The scripture you cited is easy to understand.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Like already stated, the word of salvation is sent to them that fear God, the regenerated Acts 13:26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

If a person isnt regenerated already, the word of salvation isnt sent to them. Its sent to them that fear God.

The Jewish people Peter spoke to in Acts 2 weren't "regenerated already." What happened is, Peter quoted them scripture they were familiar with, but didn't understand until Peter explained it to them.
Is that impossible for you to understand?

Just like Cornelius, he and his company feared God Acts 10:1-2

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Now God sent Peter to him with the word of Salvation Acts 10:34-36

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

We know nothing about this Roman soldier, except it says he feared God and was good to the Jewish people. Cornelius could easily have been a gentile who liked what little he knew about God and didn't agree with mistreating subjects of Rome.
Is that impossible for you to understand?

 

[brightfame52]

The Jewish people Peter spoke to in Acts 2 weren't "regenerated already." What happened is, Peter quoted them scripture they were familiar with, but didn't understand until Peter explained it to them.
Is that impossible for you to understand?

We know nothing about this Roman soldier, except it says he feared God and was good to the Jewish people. Cornelius could easily have been a gentile who liked what little he knew about God and didn't agree with mistreating subjects of Rome.
Is that impossible for you to understand?

Anyone who God sends the word of salvation to were regenerated, fearing God. The word of salvation is only to the saved, its not to the Lost.

 

[rogerg]

Anyone who God sends the word of salvation to were regenerated, fearing God. The word of salvation is only to the saved, its not to the Lost.

Perfect reply brightfame52, and a lot nicer than I would have been.

 

[brightfame52]

Perfect reply brightfame52, and a lot nicer than I would have been.

Its just like when God sends someone the Gospel of their salvation, which is the same thing, they are in a saved state, you dont send a lost person good news of their salvation. Lets look at Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The words your and salvation are both in the genitive case. The genitive case:

The genitive case refers to the case used for a noun, pronoun, or adjective to show ownership.E.g. His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple

Ephesians 1 :: King James Version (KJV)

Ephesians 1 - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

www.blueletterbible.org

So at the time they heard the Gospel, they possessed salvation, it was theirs, but the Gospel was to inform them of it, which is why its called good news.

So they were regenerated when they heard the Gospel of their Salvation.

 

[rogerg]

So at the time they heard the Gospel, they possessed salvation, it was theirs, but the Gospel was to inform them of it, which is why its called good news.

So they were regenerated when they heard the Gospel of their Salvation.

Absolutely, brightframe52. Unfortunately, many of the posters here try to twist scripture into fitting what they want it to say rather than of what it actually does say.

 

[2Nomad1c]

I found video that does a good job clarifying the faith and works issue. Let me know what you guys think, curious about your thoughts! The Church's 2-Party Blunder: Calvinism & Arminianism

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Anyone who God sends the word of salvation to were regenerated, fearing God. The word of salvation is only to the saved, its not to the Lost.

I wasn't saved before that. Neither were you or anyone else. We were lost before that, so you're wrong.

 

[rogerg]

I found video that does a good job clarifying the faith and works issue. Let me know what you guys think, curious about your thoughts! The Church's 2-Party Blunder: Calvinism & Arminianism

2Nomad1c, I viewed it but as I'm not too smart, it didn't seem to provide any new information to me. The bulk of it
detailed the differences between the two camps and from what I could tell that was about it. Why don't you just go ahead and explain what its bottom line is?

 

[brightfame52]

I wasn't saved before that. Neither were you or anyone else. We were lost before that, so you're wrong.

Im not speaking about you, but what scripture says. Its not wise to judge scripture truth by the experiences of men. Yet its wise to judge scripture by what scripture says. The word of salvation is sent to people who fears God, which means they are regenerated, because men by nature we have no fear of God, not the True God Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

But Gods word of salvation is sent to the ones that fear God of any nation Acts 13:26

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Acts 10:34-35

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The Gospel of Salvation is sent to them that fear God and who have been accepted with Him.

So not interested in how you were saved, nor anyone else if the testimony doesn't line up with the truth, even myself, if my testimony and experience doesn't line up with truth, its garbage and need to be repented of !

 

[PeterJens]

Only those saved/born again can respond

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Don't know what you mean. I neither hate you nor wish you dead.



See the above verses.

When I write a group hated me and wished me dead, ie worse than a murderer, was a surprise to me, as an example there are people who have a belief system that is very calvanistic and believing they were elect while being lost in sin, which in their theology was forgiven no matter how they felt or behaved, because they believed in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Logically if sin is forgiven past, present and future, then the consequences of ones sin today are not important, because you are forgiven. To justify the statements of condemnation, the idea is you loose your rewards but not ones belonging to Jesus.

Can the world respond to Jesus? Yes, but it chooses not to.
Of course you could assume that they choose because they cannot.

Jesus talks a lot about the focus of the heart, towards love or position and show. When people have established their view on life, they are not going to move, unless their foundations are looking towards a particular direction.

The problem I am highlighting is how taking a theological position can make others in the christian faith to appear like enemies who must be fought. This making of enemies I would suggest shows the emphasis is faulty.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

peter jens



Our will is under the control of our nature by nature and under the control of a spirit of disobedience, now we freely do its will

Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The only thing that can save us from this plight is found in Vs 1 To be quickened, or simply to be made alive

Emphasis is a difficult word, because there are many interpretations of "the spirit that now works".
In the extreme interpretations christians can be possessed by an evil spirit, and we are people who have no responsibility towards our sinful behaviour, its just out of control.

Another interpretation is the desires and temptations that take people to compulsively shop, or partake in activities that give them a rush but are harmful to others or dangerous etc. create a slavery to sin and influenced by the evil one.

I would suggest these feelings are just that feelings. They define our good and bad days, and without focus of Jesus can lead us into sin and terrible consequences. I have watched the elation of sales people as they are successful and exalted, get so carried away, two people a man and woman saw in each other a fantastic outcome. But it was all euphoria, nothing more. Without foundations in God, in the cross, in love and consequences, we are just a crashing waves and our reference points are just the elation or depression of the moment.

People super spiritualise the walk with Jesus, as if it is all an anointing and God given gift, and not also seeing the truth and knowing God truly loves us, and we can love others at a deep level. I know to the super spiritual emotions have nothing to do with it. I interacted with one member on a forum who said being slain in the spirit have nothing to do with emotions, and praising God was not elation. On the scale of emotional intelligence they would rate 0.

If your brother was God, a physical family member, and you could get help anywhere, you would be elated, thinking of all the possible things. Jesus calls us friends, calls us to His throne. If one does not have elation and stirring of the heart one does not understand the words or believe they are true.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

I found video that does a good job clarifying the faith and works issue. Let me know what you guys think, curious about your thoughts! The Church's 2-Party Blunder: Calvinism & Arminianism

I would answer the solution to Calvanistic and Armenian views of scripture is emotional emphasis.
If I say the world is round, I am right it is a sphere but also slightly wider at the equator than the poles, 1% different.

If I describe a helicopter coming to save people from a sinking ship, I can describe the people involved in isolation, in order of importance, of the actions of everyone as they respond and do things. If you take the parts as absolutes those who are saved do nothing the helicopter is the only thing that matters, yet the people can only be saved if they put on a sling, have the courage to believe they will be saved and to submit to the process.

Our use of words often summarise and reduce aspects down to a word, so show its relation to another word.
It takes time to understand the summaries and what they mean, to get the right emphasis.

So Jesus says we have to hate everyone, and also to love our enemies.
But Jesus was talking about priorities in allegiance to God verses allegiance to others.
He was talking about our enemies are sinners like ourselves and need to be loved just as we are loved, because the Father loved us while we were sinners and we turned around, so we should love sinners in the same way.

But this love is limited to knowing the potential of sinners to be redeemed and made whole, healed and brought into life, not love like approving sinful behaviour or agreeing with sinful attitudes.

Because Jesus speaks at an emotional and involved way it is easy to get confused. He points out how the hypocrisy of the pharisees destroys all the good they do, because though they have good ideas, it all falls apart without love and desire to know God in reality.

Dispensationalism attempts to resolve factual contradictions by claiming they apply to different groups in different ways. This negates love and working through the truth Jesus brings to our hearts, and just creating a sinful walk cop out for the walk of grace as opposed to the walk of obedience laid out under Moses.

God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Emphasis is a difficult word, because there are many interpretations of "the spirit that now works".
In the extreme interpretations christians can be possessed by an evil spirit, and we are people who have no responsibility towards our sinful behaviour, its just out of control.

Another interpretation is the desires and temptations that take people to compulsively shop, or partake in activities that give them a rush but are harmful to others or dangerous etc. create a slavery to sin and influenced by the evil one.

I would suggest these feelings are just that feelings. They define our good and bad days, and without focus of Jesus can lead us into sin and terrible consequences. I have watched the elation of sales people as they are successful and exalted, get so carried away, two people a man and woman saw in each other a fantastic outcome. But it was all euphoria, nothing more. Without foundations in God, in the cross, in love and consequences, we are just a crashing waves and our reference points are just the elation or depression of the moment.

People super spiritualise the walk with Jesus, as if it is all an anointing and God given gift, and not also seeing the truth and knowing God truly loves us, and we can love others at a deep level. I know to the super spiritual emotions have nothing to do with it. I interacted with one member on a forum who said being slain in the spirit have nothing to do with emotions, and praising God was not elation. On the scale of emotional intelligence they would rate 0.

If your brother was God, a physical family member, and you could get help anywhere, you would be elated, thinking of all the possible things. Jesus calls us friends, calls us to His throne. If one does not have elation and stirring of the heart one does not understand the words or believe they are true.

God bless you

Sounds like you are downplaying the real nature of things as we are being spiritually dead in sin. Again, here is the plight prior to quickening, being made alive:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others

Notice our walk while dead in sin. The word walk means: To conduct one self ACCORDING to means corresponding to the course of this world ACCORDING to the prince of the power of the air, meaning agreeing with his will. As unregenerate, unquicken[ will include] are under the control of this prince, who is satan or one of his princes. And this spirit works effectually in us as unregenerate. the word worketh means:

to be operative, be at work, put forth power: followed by ἐν with the dative of person,
to effect

Its an effectual working in us, so our unregenerate will, mind and heart are under its control.

Now the only way this can change, is by first God must quicken us from the spiritual death in sin. Our will plays no part in this, its totally the Sovereign will of God to quicken the dead. Its blasphemous in my opinion to think otherwise.

 

[rogerg]

When I write a group hated me and wished me dead, ie worse than a murderer, was a surprise to me, as an example there are people who have a belief system that is very calvanistic and believing they were elect while being lost in sin, which in their theology was forgiven no matter how they felt or behaved, because they believed in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Logically if sin is forgiven past, present and future, then the consequences of ones sin today are not important, because you are forgiven. To justify the statements of condemnation, the idea is you loose your rewards but not ones belonging to Jesus.

Just so as I understand your point, you are saying that there are a lot of saved people who would like to injure and kill other people but don't simply because they're afraid of going to hell for it, but otherwise you believe that they would? However, Calvinists are more likely to do so because they know their sins have been forgiven? Is that how you see it? You do realize, that with salvation comes a rebirth with a renewed spirit and heart and, should such an inclination have existed before salvation, it certainly wouldn't afterwards? Look at the conversion of Saul/Paul. Pre-salvation, he
was a murderer of Christians, afterwards, God converted him into the most prolific writer of Christ in the NT. I don't
recall him murdering anyone after that conversion, do you?
Also, this would then also mean one's salvation is predicated upon their actions and not upon Christ's actions and what He has achieved. So, wouldn't that be a direct contradiction of the fundamental tenets of Christianity?

Can the world respond to Jesus? Yes, but it chooses not to.
Of course you could assume that they choose because they cannot.

I don't think it is an assumption that people of themselves cannot respond to Christ -
I think the Bible informs of exactly that:

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Jesus talks a lot about the focus of the heart, towards love or position and show. When people have established their view on life, they are not going to move, unless their foundations are looking towards a particular direction.

The problem I am highlighting is how taking a theological position can make others in the christian faith to appear like enemies who must be fought. This making of enemies I would suggest shows the emphasis is faulty.

Not exactly sure what your point is here but before being saved, the heart of man is deceitful and wicked.
From salvation, any "foundation" that may have existed is changed by God through a rebirth through the Spirit.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:10-12, 17 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:

[Jer 31:33 KJV]
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

Also, this would then also mean one's salvation is predicated upon their actions and not upon Christ's actions and what He has achieved.

Exactly, that's work, mercenary spirit salvation. Also, if the persons supposed obedience is motivated from legal fear of going to hell, then its not a obedience motivated by grace, love and gratitude

I don't think it is an assumption that people of themselves cannot respond to Christ -
I think the Bible informs of exactly that

Correct its not an assumption, was the Son of God assuming when He declared Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

In essence the Son of God says no man has the ability to believe in Me ! It takes a Sovereign intervention of God to do that. And that Intervention is nothing less than New Birth Drawing

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg



Exactly, that's work, mercenary spirit salvation. Also, if the persons supposed obedience is motivated from legal fear of going to hell, then its not a obedience motivated by grace, love and gratitude



Correct its not an assumption, was the Son of God assuming when He declared Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

In essence the Son of God says no man has the ability to believe in Me ! It takes a Sovereign intervention of God to do that. And that Intervention is nothing less than New Birth Drawing

The Father draws everyone by His grace in wanting to save all.
2 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
John 3:16

By your theology, you have again created another conflict in the NT.

John 6:44 states that no one can come to Jesus unless Father draws him.

John 12:32 states that Jesus will draw all men to Himself.

Which is it?
How do you reconcile the two?

I've asked you this before but you can't answer, of course.

It is EASILY answered if one believes as Christianity has believed for 1,500 years.

 

[PeterJens]

Just so as I understand your point, you are saying that there are a lot of saved people who would like to injure and kill other people but don't simply because they're afraid of going to hell for it, but otherwise you believe that they would? However, Calvinists are more likely to do so because they know their sins have been forgiven? Is that how you see it? You do realize, that with salvation comes a rebirth with a renewed spirit and heart and, should such an inclination have existed before salvation, it certainly wouldn't afterwards? Look at the conversion of Saul/Paul. Pre-salvation, he
was a murderer of Christians, afterwards, God converted him into the most prolific writer of Christ in the NT. I don't
recall him murdering anyone after that conversion, do you?
Also, this would then also mean one's salvation is predicated upon their actions and not upon Christ's actions and what He has achieved. So, wouldn't that be a direct contradiction of the fundamental tenets of Christianity?


I don't think it is an assumption that people of themselves cannot respond to Christ -
I think the Bible informs of exactly that:

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Not exactly sure what your point is here but before being saved, the heart of man is deceitful and wicked.
From salvation, any "foundation" that may have existed is changed by God through a rebirth through the Spirit.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Rom 3:10-12, 17 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...
17 And the way of peace have they not known:

[Jer 31:33 KJV]
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It is an interesting point you are making.
You are suggesting I know peoples destination and how God will judge, which I do not.
I am simply saying those who do not know love do not know Jesus. People can believe whatever they want, but both their lives and their words need to reflect Jesus.

The emphasis the apostles are making is they found they obeyed the commandments from their hearts, and were faced with believers who claimed they knew Jesus but did not show it in their lives.

Catching the flame is maybe a better way of putting it. We are not the makers of the flame or its origin, we just testify to it. I once thought all believers are like me, their hearts seeking truth and openness. Turns out I was wrong, and some believe there is no power in the Holy Spirit to transform people, and to suggest transformation is part of the gospel is works salvation and evil, destroying the true gospel of grace.

My motivation here is not to prove anything but to call people to the reality of Christ and His love to our hearts. It is ironic that those who desire transformation and change from this world know these words, but those who do not know or seek this reality, it is something they do not understand or know what I am speaking about. Do you know this power within and love that conquers all?

God bless you