What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is believing/faith a work ?

journeyman said:
It's the Lambs' book of life, because he is God.

No. The whole ourpose of the Lamb was soley to conquer death. According to OT Jewish law, Jesus was without sin and therefore sentenced wrongfully.

The names are declared at the end of this world,

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt.25:34

So before that point, names can be removed and those turn their backs on God,

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psa.69:28

Only the names of the faithful remain.

In the passage you're referring to, his disciples were rejoicing about the power they had over demons. It seems our Lord was cautioning them against being intoxicated by power, as satan was.Their names were written in heaven because they followed our humble King,
Interestingly, Christ was still alive when He said that to them. How could that be?

Of course I believe in Jesus. I believe in our Father because of his Son,

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21

But you believe some sinners are saved by God for no particular reason and belief is forced on them. This would make Christs' sacrifice meaningless, unnecessary. You're dead wrong

The works finished from the foundation of the world are light divided from darkness, water devided above from below, everything reproducing after its own kind, etc, but Father, Son and Spirit are still working.

To enter Gods' rest now, is to have the peace Jesus gives us in this world of turmoil,

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:1

And to you who are troubled rest with us 2Thes.1:7
Click to expand...

Our points of view are just too different to be able to carry on a reasonable discussion. I will just end by
stating that I believe your interpretations totally and completely wrong and based upon works and the keeping of law for salvation which can never bring salvation to anyone, only the judgment of God.
 
Last edited:
journeyman said:
I will end by saying the works and keeping of the law brought salvation to the Messiah. He gives eternal life to anyone who believes what he did.
Click to expand...

Well, since you ended by editorializing, I will too.

In your prior post you said:
"But you believe some sinners are saved by God for no particular reason and belief is forced on them. This would make Christs' sacrifice meaningless, unnecessary. You're dead wrong"

God saves whomsoever He chooses to save. It is given completely and totally as free from God to them with
nothing being required nor permitted from them in return. God has the right, privilege, and prerogative to give it that way, doesn't He, and that it was made a free gift, is exactly what made Christ's sacrifice was not meaningless or unnecessary. No answer is required - of course He does!
 
The question "Is believing/faith a work?" suffers from interpretation bias.
A work is defined by some as anything man does, irrespective of the cause, in one view sinners are lost and evil.
The difficulty is also in saying a human believes or has faith is already defining this as something lost and evil, therefore could never under this definition be considered as something good or even chosen.

To get round this, belief or faith is a gift, not something human but something experienced by people, but not chosen or desired, an anointing from God, over which man has no part.

To me this is taking things to a theoretical extreme that is just impractical and not biblical.
When Peter expressed this

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Matt 16:16-17

Jesus was saying Peter knew this because it had been revealed to him by the Father. This faith was something Peter possessed and expressed, through walking with Jesus, and seeing Him, and then concluding who He actually was.
On a simple level this faith is something Peter chose to express and Jesus recognised its value.

To be worthy of Christ. Worthiness is a value judgement, which Jesus asked us to make.

23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Luke 9:23-24

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
It is impossible to see our walk being something that needs to be valued, not for its own sake, but as a true reflection of Jesus and His work in our lives.
Matt 10:37-38

Jesus is saying two things. He has done so much, unless believers respond in like effort, they are not worthy of His work. This is not earning or proving something, it is measuring our choice and heart verses Jesus's heart.
The parable of the man inappropriately dressed at the wedding feast, is to get over this picture. Assuming we can dishonour Jesus, while claiming His victory, this is simply not acceptable.

If one ignores these words of Jesus, one is not a sheep of His. Jesus described His sheep as those who listen to Him.
I used to not understand what Jesus was getting at, but now I see. This is about emotional emphasis and loyalty. Our hearts need to be close to Him, and we can easily end up in split loyalties, but we need to choose Him first, in our hearts.

God bless you
 
Last edited:
brightfame52 said:
The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work. If a person could believe in Christ before they are born again by the Spirit, it would mean they have done a work and that would mean they have worked for their salvation which is totally against what the scriptures teach. Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Click to expand...
As you raised this question, can man doing anything in your view is something God can call Holy.

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:12-13

If Gods chosen people are not holy and dearly loved what are they and what does Paul mean?
If we are to do nothing as anything we do has no value, why does Paul ask us to clothe ourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

It is possible to find that ones position does not answer such a question but then that position is not biblical or Christain.
So I am intrigued as I believe in Gods sovereignty and choice but desire to agree with the apostles and their point view. God bless you
 
PeterJens said:
As you raised this question, can man doing anything in your view is something God can call Holy.

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:12-13

If Gods chosen people are not holy and dearly loved what are they and what does Paul mean?
If we are to do nothing as anything we do has no value, why does Paul ask us to clothe ourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

It is possible to find that ones position does not answer such a question but then that position is not biblical or Christain.
So I am intrigued as I believe in Gods sovereignty and choice but desire to agree with the apostles and their point view. God bless you
Click to expand...
More on the works of men, and you totally ignored the emphasis I had in the post you quoted of mine.
 
brightfame52 said:
More on the works of men, and you totally ignored the emphasis I had in the post you quoted of mine.
Click to expand...

It is clear your answer to any discussion on the behaviour of believers is "the works of men" which is just being dismissive. I asked a simple question about Jesus and His leading about the change His word brings about in the follower of Him. Equally the obedience and listening to Jesus.

I am not saying this is a conditional aspect, ie you have to do to be saved, like earning, but rather this is a trait or fruit of those who follow Jesus. Theology has a reductionist affect on belief systems to try and define a particular approach. The difficulty which I have suffered from myself is in getting distracted with ideas people express rather than the peoples love and walk in Jesus. I am quite definitive that God is 100% sovereign and chooses but we are the product of His will and are called to follow it.

One member I interacted with refused to accept the believer has significance in the relationship, more than as a passive member. A passive view leads to a robot view faith, which seems to negate the need for continuing earth or even its value, as God could just create His people.

For me the power of Christ is to come to us as complete people, as humans, as friends and call us as we are to be cleansed and to walk with Him as disciples. Jesus's discussions with Peter illustrate this, Peter choosing his reactions, making mistakes, repenting and walking on in faith. Jesus seems to know Peter so well, and it is this relationship and knowledge that guides Peter through. So this is both God being sovereign and Peter responding.

I could be wrong, but it is this wisdom of Christ that speaks to my heart.
God bless you
 
Can emotional frameworks shift?
It is difficult as a mature person who has developed layers of interpretation and understanding to change, as what they are is the result of many experiences and positions over many years. So what is a simple statement will only be viewed one way, either right or any other way is wrong. I was told by one group everything only has one view on it.

I we approach any idea, and only see one aspect of it, we know we are jaded and biased, because nothing has only one perspective. Language by its nature is a summary of lots of ideas, which over a few sentences presents a concept or concepts that put a particular point. What few see is the depth of assumptions into which such a concept is put. Without the assumptions very different conclusions will be drawn.

I have met many people, who think in a few sentences you can express a whole series of ideas in depth, which actually extends to hundreds of pages of implications and foundations. It is very humbling to know even after listening to someone for 1hr you can find you do not agree, or do agree on various points. What shocked me, was to also see over time I have held many positions, and possibly still they were all valid, but it all came down to emphasis.

God bless you
 
PeterJens said:
Can emotional frameworks shift?
Click to expand...
Yes, but not by man, only by God

[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[Eph 4:21-24 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
 
PeterJens said:
It is clear your answer to any discussion on the behaviour of believers is "the works of men" which is just being dismissive. I asked a simple question about Jesus and His leading about the change His word brings about in the follower of Him. Equally the obedience and listening to Jesus.

I am not saying this is a conditional aspect, ie you have to do to be saved, like earning, but rather this is a trait or fruit of those who follow Jesus. Theology has a reductionist affect on belief systems to try and define a particular approach. The difficulty which I have suffered from myself is in getting distracted with ideas people express rather than the peoples love and walk in Jesus. I am quite definitive that God is 100% sovereign and chooses but we are the product of His will and are called to follow it.

One member I interacted with refused to accept the believer has significance in the relationship, more than as a passive member. A passive view leads to a robot view faith, which seems to negate the need for continuing earth or even its value, as God could just create His people.

For me the power of Christ is to come to us as complete people, as humans, as friends and call us as we are to be cleansed and to walk with Him as disciples. Jesus's discussions with Peter illustrate this, Peter choosing his reactions, making mistakes, repenting and walking on in faith. Jesus seems to know Peter so well, and it is this relationship and knowledge that guides Peter through. So this is both God being sovereign and Peter responding.

I could be wrong, but it is this wisdom of Christ that speaks to my heart.
God bless you
Click to expand...
More on the works of men. Its getting old friend.
 
brightfame52 said:
More on the works of men. Its getting old friend.
Click to expand...
What is interesting to me, is your approach?
We are Gods workmanship and are called to let our light shine through our good works.

14 You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matt 5:14-16

In a world where sinful man is lost without hope and the elect are saved without risk, what is the point of the people of God being a light shinning in the world?

How is it that men are saved through the preaching of Gods word? What role do the preacher and the word have?
The bible is printed and funded by man. Without this book and testimony where would we be? Churches and places of worship, leadership and integrity are part of the Christian community, a Holy people in a dark world.

We are Christs ambassadors, bringing heaven to earth.

But maybe for those who want total security and safety with no risk or responsibility, this is all too much.
I do understand, where scripture speaks to how one believes, and its light though seen dimly is what we hold on to.
But when that light is ones heart and breadth, this is real freedom, and the boundaries are not defined by a few verses and their context delivered out of the gloom. But Jesus is a blazing light that shines on everything and bring life, eternal life, a reality that will never dim.

God bless you
 
rogerg said:
Well, since you ended by editorializing, I will too.

In your prior post you said:
"But you believe some sinners are saved by God for no particular reason and belief is forced on them. This would make Christs' sacrifice meaningless, unnecessary. You're dead wrong"

God saves whomsoever He chooses to save.
Click to expand...
He chooses to save the repentant.
rogerg said:
It is given completely and totally as free from God to them with
nothing being required nor permitted from them in return. God has the right, privilege, and prerogative to give it that way, doesn't He, and that it was made a free gift, is exactly what made Christ's sacrifice was not meaningless or unnecessary. No answer is required - of course He does!
Click to expand...
God freely gives of himself. Your assertion that he doesn't expect gratitude in return isn't true,

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God Mic.6:8
 
rogerg said:
Our points of view are just too different to be able to carry on a reasonable discussion. I will just end by
stating that I believe your interpretations totally and completely wrong and based upon works and the keeping of law for salvation which can never bring salvation to anyone, only the judgment of God.
Click to expand...
I agree that the view points are very different....you're speaking to another member up there, but I agree with the other member - as you know.

I do want to say this:
I can understand some of the things you believe, although some are totally incomprehensible to me, but there is one statement you make above that is completely wrong - forgetting about the fact that you're reformed and I'm not.

I'd try to make this clear even if we agreed on everything else.

You say this:
totally and completely wrong and based upon works and the keeping of law for salvation which can never bring salvation to anyone, only the judgment of God.

First of all, we'd have to agree on what you mean by THE LAW.
Do you mean the Law of Moses?
The 613 rules and regulations in the OT?
Or do you mean the 10 commandments?
It's important to state what this law is.
Jesus said He did not come to ABOLISH the law,
but to fulfill it.

However, you want to explain the word fulfill (which is almost a thread on its own),
you and I have to admit that the words Jesus said about NOT ABOLISHING THE LAW are very clear.
So what LAW was He speaking of.

As I've stated many times before, and also to you,
I know of NO ONE on this forum site that believes a person could be saved by works.
So we really need to stop saying this because it brings the discussion off to another topic.
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

AFTER we become saved, whatever soteriology you wish to believe, THEN we are REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS.

There is verse after verse about this and I've posted them many times even to you and I'll be happy to post them again if you wish.

What I fiind MOST bothersome about your statement above is that you state
WORKS BRING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.

How could you say that when one of the main reasons Jesus came to us was to show us how to BEHAVE and act in the Kingdom of God? (here on earth).

I believe I was discussing with Jethro Bodine and he could hardly believe someone would make the statement you did.

GOD REQUIRES US TO DO GOOD WORKS.
Judgment will fall on those that do NOT adhere to the teachings of Christ.

Please show me some verses that state we are NOT to do good works.
One would even suffice.
 
PeterJens said:
What is interesting to me, is your approach?
We are Gods workmanship and are called to let our light shine through our good works.

14 You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matt 5:14-16

In a world where sinful man is lost without hope and the elect are saved without risk, what is the point of the people of God being a light shinning in the world?

How is it that men are saved through the preaching of Gods word? What role do the preacher and the word have?
The bible is printed and funded by man. Without this book and testimony where would we be? Churches and places of worship, leadership and integrity are part of the Christian community, a Holy people in a dark world.

We are Christs ambassadors, bringing heaven to earth.

But maybe for those who want total security and safety with no risk or responsibility, this is all too much.
I do understand, where scripture speaks to how one believes, and its light though seen dimly is what we hold on to.
But when that light is ones heart and breadth, this is real freedom, and the boundaries are not defined by a few verses and their context delivered out of the gloom. But Jesus is a blazing light that shines on everything and bring life, eternal life, a reality that will never dim.

God bless you
Click to expand...
More on the works of men ! You on a roll
 
journey

He chooses to save the repentant.
Click to expand...

False ! Those He chose to save, He gives them repentance when He saves them as their Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is the Church
 
brightfame52 said:
More on the works of men ! You on a roll
Click to expand...
More works of God in His people.
Empathy comes from hearts speaking to each other. Clearly we are not speaking to each other.

King Saul was anointed with the Holy Spirit and started prophesying. This is what the coming of the new covenant was like upon the apostles. It was an announcement to the world of the gospel of grace through Jesus Christ shown in man. The apostles took heart that because gentiles equally were anointed with the Holy Spirit God was not limited to Jews to become Christians.

Paul was very disappointed with people coming to faith and showing nothing of its reality so said this,

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Our faith is a faith of action, of transformation of the heart, of breaking chains of sin and walking in love.
Without action one is nothing, literally. Love is not a dead fish proclaiming they are alive.

God bless you
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top