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Is believing/faith a work ?

2nd Timothy Group said:
Yes. In fact, the Bible tells us that belief is the Work of God . . . not the work of men. The ability to believe comes by the Work of God.

John 6:29 NKJV - "Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
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Good if its the work of God, then its not our work, its all of Grace. So the reason why some believe the Gospel of Christ, and are converted, is because God gave them the Gift of Faith to believe, and others He does not give the Gift of Faith to believe.
 
rogerg said:
Just for clarity, did you actually mean "the ability to believe", or instead that God gives belief in Christ itself?
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Hello Roger. Yes, to believe in Christ, one must be relieved of the Adamic Curse that renders a person Spiritual blind, deaf, and unable to Walk with the Lord. When this Curse is cut away by the Circumcision of Christ, a person is set free from the captivity of the Devil and thus no longer seeks to do his evil will. In this moment, the Sinful Nature is cut away and the Divine Nature is applied. Thus, a person goes from one inspirational Father in Satan to another Effectual Father in the Holy Spirit. Newly Regenerated souls are Spiritually Enabled.

2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."

I hold the beliefs I hold because of clear Scripture. I do my best to use terms and phrases straight from the Bible so as to never be accused of using "jargon" as I discuss the Word.
 
Jethro

Believing in the blood of Christ is indeed something you do,
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I know this. My question to you is this something the person does as Justified and regenerate, or unregenerate ?


but it does not constitute a work of the works gospel that can not justify
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Again it depends if you were already Justified and regenerate, or unregenerate and condemned when you believed in Christ.

Surely, it is only faith in the blood of Christ that can justify a person.
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I disagree its only the blood of Christ that Justifies a person, and Faith is the fruit of that !

This is what this thread is all about !
 
rogerg said:
Those repentant had He saved
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Jesus said repent, or perish, meaning they had a choice.
rogerg said:
C'mon you know what I meant: to expect anything back as a contribution to salvation - the context was of salvation
not gratitude - nor did I ever mention gratitude. You misrepresented my post
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As far as Calvanism goes, it doesn't matter what a persons reaction to Christs' sacrifice is., whether gratitude, love, humility, etc. You teach that sinners are unable to respond to the gospel. You're making everything Jesus did during his ministry on earth meaningless.
 
journeyman said:
Jesus said repent, or perish, meaning they had a choice.

As far as Calvanism goes, it doesn't matter what a persons reaction to Christs' sacrifice is., whether gratitude, love, humility, etc. You teach that sinners are unable to respond to the gospel. You're making everything Jesus did during his ministry on earth meaningless.
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No Jesus didnt tell them they had a choice. In fact one can only repent if God grants it them 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
brightfame52 said:
No Jesus didnt tell them they had a choice. In fact one can only repent if God grants it them 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
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Perfect!

People really struggle with the idea that God grants Repentance. Why? Hard to say for sure, but it seems that people do not want to relinquish the idea of control over their lives. You see, if we believe the fact that God changes us from within to without, then what does it say for those who have not changed yet fully believe they are True Christians? Right . . . say goodbye to all doctrine that would indicate that God has a Plan and that He alone is in control.

However, if a person believes that they are in full control over themselves, and their lives, they find that they can still call themselves a True Christian even though they may live in strip clubs, at the bottom of alcohol bottles and cans, in the depts of infidelity, porn addiction, theft, lying, and all sorts of other evil habits. It is amazing how conveniently people drop all Bible verses that indicate an Effectual God who alone is responsible for Salvation (and change) in the life of His Elect.
 
wondering said:
No Roger,
My MUSTS are not work.

we must believe that God exists.
We must believe in Him.
We must obey Him.

God has informed man of HOW to be saved.
Neither you nor Calvin can change the order of salvation.
You believe they are works because you're reformed in theology.
No other denomination believes as the reformed do.

We must believe God exists:
Romans 1:20 states that man has always known about God.
Paul and scripture state that man has always been aware of God through His creation.

Hebrews 11:6 states that HE WHO COMES TO GOD, MUST believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.


We must believe in Him:
Proverbs 3:5-6 We must believe enough in God to allow Him to lead our path.

John 20:31 The gospels and letters were written so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that by believing we may have life.

John 8:31 Jesus told those who believed Him that they were truly disciples of His.


We must obey Him:
John 5:29 Those who did good deeds will rise to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 3:36 He who does not obey the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of the Father abides on him.

John 14:15 If we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments.



You see Roger, I'm not stating the musts,
God is.
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The verses you posted are stating the "what", not the "how", but the "how" is the critical/crucial part. The "how" is that which causes them to be manifested in/by someone. That "how" is salvation - they are the byproducts of salvation, not its cause. The unifying principle which links the above verses (and all other like verses) is that the person must first have become saved. If you believe that they are requirements which must be achieved in order to be saved, then as we discussed, you are under law and works, not under grace. And if you do, you should ask yourself what
Christ's role as the Saviour accomplished.
 
rogerg said:
The verses you posted are stating the "what", not the "how", but the "how" is the critical/crucial part. The "how" is that which causes them to be manifested in/by someone. That "how" is salvation - they are the byproducts of salvation, not its cause. The unifying principle which links the above verses (and all other like verses) is that the person must first have become saved. If you believe that they are requirements which must be achieved in order to be saved, then as we discussed, you are under law and works, not under grace. And if you do, you should ask yourself what
Christ's role as the Saviour accomplished.
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One of the problems that the "church" faces, is that they haven't a clue as to what Grace actually is.

And I love what you are saying about the difference between the "what" and the "how." I say essentially the same thing when it comes to the Gospel. I say, "Don't describe the Gospel to me; explain it."

Chapter titles of a book describe the contents. It is the contents that explain the chapter title . . . massive difference.
 
rogerg said:
The verses you posted are stating the "what", not the "how", but the "how" is the critical/crucial part. The "how" is that which causes them to be manifested in/by someone. That "how" is salvation - they are the byproducts of salvation, not its cause. The unifying principle which links the above verses (and all other like verses) is that the person must first have become saved. If you believe that they are requirements which must be achieved in order to be saved, then as we discussed, you are under law and works, not under grace. And if you do, you should ask yourself what
Christ's role as the Saviour accomplished.
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What did Christ's role as Savior accomplish if God chooses who will be saved?
What would be the reason for the atonement?
Which theory would cover this sacrifice of the Lord?

How are the verses I've stated the WHAT and not the HOW?

They all state HOW we are to believe and behave IF we wish to receive salvation.
By what and how you mean descriptive and prescriptive....
I've showed you how they are PRESCRIPTIVE.

Now, show me how the above verses do not mean what they say by exegeting them, or by explaining how YOU understand them.

It's of no value to tell me I'm wrong...SHOW ME I'M WRONG.

Post some verse that state THE HOW, which is critical to you.
There must be so many if they're that critical....
Thanks.
 
brightfame52 said:
Good if its the work of God, then its not our work, its all of Grace. So the reason why some believe the Gospel of Christ, and are converted, is because God gave them the Gift of Faith to believe, and others He does not give the Gift of Faith to believe.
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To educate myself about what you are proposing, in your belief framework what is being regenerated?
Some suggest a spiritual being is born into the believer, who as a sinner was simply spiritually dead.
They go further to suggest they are beings that are this spiritual being and their flesh will die at the resurrection with all its failings and temptations. This is a kind of gnostic view, but it explains why our bodies are not saved and why the idea of behaviour being relevant is wrong.

My problem with this is Jesus talked to the disciples and they were clean. And this sense of purification was total, not just their spiritual being, and Jesus regarded them as acceptable to Him, except Judas. Jesus also was a physical human, with all its problems and limitations yet walked without sin. So the innate state of man is not sinful.

Now it is always possible I have been deceived and badly taught. One group thought with the right teacher I would be great. Funny that because as followers of Jesus, Jesus is our teacher. So I am wondering where I have got things wrong and what is your take on this?
 
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@roger
wondering said:
What did Christ's role as Savior accomplish if God chooses who will be saved?
What would be the reason for the atonement?
Which theory would cover this sacrifice of the Lord?

How are the verses I've stated the WHAT and not the HOW?

They all state HOW we are to believe and behave IF we wish to receive salvation.
By what and how you mean descriptive and prescriptive....
I've showed you how they are PRESCRIPTIVE.

Now, show me how the above verses do not mean what they say by exegeting them, or by explaining how YOU understand them.

It's of no value to tell me I'm wrong...SHOW ME I'M WRONG.

Post some verse that state THE HOW, which is critical to you.
There must be so many if they're that critical....
Thanks.
Click to expand...

You know, I answered your questions (regarding the Circumcision of Christ) in a two-part post . . . no response. Should we all expect this from you, the Embassador? :D
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
One of the problems that the "church" faces, is that they haven't a clue as to what Grace actually is.

And I love what you are saying about the difference between the "what" and the "how." I say essentially the same thing when it comes to the Gospel. I say, "Don't describe the Gospel to me; explain it."

Chapter titles of a book describe the contents. It is the contents that explain the chapter title . . . massive difference.
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I owe you a long post, but I need time for it, and not come and go as I mostly do.

I also have often said that God has chosen from the beginning of time HOW we will be saved...
NOT WHO.

The first bibles had no chapter titles.
I don't know why this has anything to do with this discussion.

And please don't think your "church" is the only church that understands grace.

This might be part of the problem...
The reformed church believes itself to be superior to all other churches.
Interesting that it didn't even exist until 1,500 years after Jesus.
 
rogerg said:
Hi 2nd Timothy Group,

Never thought of it that way before, but great point and so true - thanks
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It's kind of like going to the bible to learn something...
Instead of using the bible to confirm something learned.

Exegesis
Eisegesis
 
wondering said:
And please don't think your "church" is the only church that understands grace.
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Believe me . . . I don't. I don't attend today's modern-day "church." Why? Because "it" hasn't a clue as to what the actual Gospel is. Totally . . . utterly . . . clueless just as were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law 2000 years ago. :)
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
@roger


You know, I answered your questions (regarding the Circumcision of Christ) in a two-part post . . . no response. Should we all expect this from you, the Embassador? :biggrin
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I will always respond to a post.
Yours is 3 pages long and I can't even sit here that long due to physical problems.
Hope to later on today...
 
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