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Is believing/faith a work ?

First of all, we'd have to agree on what you mean by THE LAW.
The law is that which defines and establishes any criteria that must be achieved by a person in order to be saved.

So what LAW was He speaking of.
The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

As I've stated many times before, and also to you,
I know of NO ONE on this forum site that believes a person could be saved by works.
So we really need to stop saying this because it brings the discussion off to another topic.
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.
Anything, anything that someone believes they must do in in order to become saved, is a work, to include
that one must produce faith of themselves - that is, that faith is not a gift from God. Said another way,
anything that is not received solely as a gift, is a work.

What I fiind MOST bothersome about your statement above is that you state
WORKS BRING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.
Works in order to BECOME saved, not after being saved. You always neglect to make that distinction
when you describe my beliefs.

What I fiind MOST bothersome about your statement above is that you state
WORKS BRING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.

Works for salvation bring the judgment of God for many important reasons. Here are just a few:
1) Christ was sent, suffered, and brought forth His offering expressly for the purpose
of removing the demand for works from the individual. By believing that we must do
something for it in addition to what Christ did, is in effect calling God a liar by saying that Christ never achieved
what the Father sent Him to achieve and what He declared that Christ did achieve. If Christ achieved it (which He
did), then there can be nothing, nothing, even to the most miniscule degree remaining for anyone else to do.
It must be that He did all or that He did nothing - there can be no in between.
2) Believing in the requirement to perform any works at all for salvation, means that the doer is under law and with
law is its judgment and punishment. If under law, then the doer must perfectly achieve what Christ achieved with
no mercy or variation from that possible because mercy is the antithesis of law - both cannot coexist at the same
time. In other words, they would in effect have to become unto themselves, a Christ. However, this was impossible
for anyone but Christ. For those He chose, Christ undid what was Adam caused:
He took them out from being the subjects of law for salvation unto being the subjects of grace instead.

I could continue with this much further, and certainly have not covered it all, but if you think about it , you should be able develop a basic understanding from the above and postulate any missing pieces and perceive the terrible spiritual danger those who trust in their works are in.

How could you say that when one of the main reasons Jesus came to us was to show us how to BEHAVE and act in the Kingdom of God? (here on earth).

I believe I was discussing with @Jethro Bodine and he could hardly believe someone would make the statement you did.

GOD REQUIRES US TO DO GOOD WORKS.
Judgment will fall on those that do NOT adhere to the teachings of Christ.

Please show me some verses that state we are NOT to do good works.
One would even suffice.
Boy wondering, you are just plain unable to understand what I've been saying. I'll try this one more time:
I never said we are not to engage in good works, I said that we are NOT to engage in good
works to become saved. There is a big difference between the two: one is an attempt to gain salvation; the other comes after and from salvation and are of no gain whatsoever. The first - the using good works to be saved - are an evil attempt to leverage works for an end apart from just the doing of them - trying to buy favor with God - the other, is by those who are already saved - not done for any gain because they already have the greatest gift and blessing a man can receive, so they are done solely by a true heart to no end except a sincere desire to do them, but not for gain.
 
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5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-8

"Make every effort" is a call to action, literally.
Peter is calling us to our calling and to walk in it. Can we fail? Not if we follow Jesus, for in Him is heavens way.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10

"you will never fall" is quite a promise, astounding one, that few have ever grasped, literally.
"a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom" Praise the Lord, halleluyah, knowing the heart of our Lord in our lives.

Anyone saying the apostles do not call us to the straight path and following Jesus are blind teachers who have no insight into Jesus or heaven.

What is hard to grasp, is Jesus calls us to learn this road from our hearts, to learn who we are and to address our failures with His love, deep in our souls, where that place of total lostness and despair is met with the cross and His eternal light brings us eternal hope. If this has been ones experience, there is literally nothing that can cast a shadow on this, even when things feel so bad and full of failure.

God bless you
 
journey

False ! Those He chose to save, He gives them repentance when He saves them as their Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is the Church
God gives sinners a repentant heart by showing us how we have wronged him.
 
He chooses to save the repentant.
Those repentant had He saved

God freely gives of himself. Your assertion that he doesn't expect gratitude in return isn't true,
C'mon you know what I meant: to expect anything back as a contribution to salvation - the context was of salvation
not gratitude - nor did I ever mention gratitude. You misrepresented my post
 
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The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work. If a person could believe in Christ before they are born again by the Spirit, it would mean they have done a work and that would mean they have worked for their salvation which is totally against what the scriptures teach. Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The question isn't, "do you 'do' something to be saved?" The question is, "is what you are doing able to justify you?" Having faith is, of course, the only thing that you can do, and must do, in order to be justified. Paul says there is no boast in having faith, and so it does not constitute a 'work' of the works gospel that can not justify. Indeed, it is the ONLY work that a person can do that can justify. Having faith removes all boast of having done self righteous work, specifically, works of the law, in order to be justified.

Romans 3:26-27
26...to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

So there is no fear of serving a works gospel by doing the work of believing in order to be justified. It is the very thing you must do to be justified.
 
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More on the works of men ! You on a roll
It's not what PeterJens is preaching...
It's what Jesus preached.
Simple.

Jesus told the Apostles to go into all the world and PREACH AND TEACH what He taught them.
Matthew 28:19

Now why would preaching, teaching, missinary work, even be NECESSARY if it is God that is going to choose whom He will anyway?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Why would Paul even make an issue of this if he knew that God would choose anyway and that man had no part in hiw own salvation?
Paul did so, and Jesus instructed the Apostles to do so, because it is necessary for man to be taught what Jesus taught.
We do have a part in our salvation.
Call it works, it doesn't matter.
God calls all to be saved,
we must reply with a YES.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


1. Repent - this is an action the person must take.
2. Be baptized - This is done by God through a church - back then by another believer.


Romans 10:13
13For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”


1. Those who call on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved. Future tense. This is prescriptive.
This cannot be denied since, if it were descriptive, it would have stated...
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord IS saved.
 
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The law is that which defines and establishes any criteria that must be achieved by a person in order to be saved.

Yes. This is what I thought and why I asked.
Do you have some verses to back this up?
Your definition of the law (anything we do to achieve salvation) is NOT the same as how the word
LAW is biblically understood.

You could read the following or not, but it's important to understand what LAW is in the bible in order to understand what one is reading.

The Law As the Old Testament​

The Hebrew word for “law” is torah and the Greek word is nomos. The basic meaning is to provide direction or instruction. The English word “law” occurs over 400 times in the Bible. Sometimes the word “law” simply refers to the entire Old Testament. For example, in John 12:34 the crowd tells Jesus that they heard in the Law that the Christ would remain forever.


The Law As the Mosaic law​

The Law can also refer to the Mosaic Law. It was given to Moses when he was on Mount Sinai. That is the message of Exodus 24:12.


Other Meanings of Law​

We have seen that the “Law” can refer to the entire Old Testament or the just the Mosaic Law. But the “Law” has other meanings in the New Testament. In Romans 3:27 the expression “law of faith” refers to the fact that salvation or the forgiveness of our sins is only by faith. In Romans 7:23-24 we are introduced to “another law” which is the “law of the mind” which is our desire for obedience. This law seeks to controls our behavior but is in conflict with the “law of sin” (Romans 7:25) which wages war against the “law of the mind.” The “law of the Spirit of life” in Romans 8:2 refers to the gospel.

source: https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-is-law-in-bible/




Also see:


The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

This is just one meaning of LAW. There are other meanings.

Anything, anything that someone believes they must do in in order to become saved, is a work, to include
that one must produce faith of themselves - that is, that faith is not a gift from God. Said another way,
anything that is not received solely as a gift, is a work.

FAITH IS A GIFT.
This has been stated several times.
We do not produce faith of ourselves.
It is a gift from God.
It is, however, accessible to all.
This GIFT can be given to all who believe in God.
John 3:16

Brains bigger than yours or mine have concluded that
Ephesians 2:8 which refers to faith and salvation...state that it is all a gift.
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

They know this through Greek grammar.

It's not necessary for you to keep saying that Faith is a GIFT.

Which is why it cannot, at the same time, BE A WORK.
(as the OP suggests).

Works in order to BECOME saved, not after being saved. You always neglect to make that distinction
when you describe my beliefs.

I don't describe your beliefs. I'm not in the habit of looking inside person's heads.
I go by what you post.
And you keep posting that WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

And I keep telling you that NO ONE on this forum believes we are.
So why do you continue to use the same phraseology?

Works for salvation bring the judgment of God for many important reasons. Here are just a few:
1) Christ was sent, suffered, and brought forth His offering expressly for the purpose
of removing the demand for works from the individual. By believing that we must do
something for it in addition to what Christ did, is in effect calling God a liar by saying that Christ never achieved
what the Father sent Him to achieve and what He declared that Christ did achieve. If Christ achieved it (which He
did), then there can be nothing, nothing, even to the most miniscule degree remaining for anyone else to do.
It must be that He did all or that He did nothing - there can be no in between.
2) Believing in the requirement to perform any works at all for salvation, means that the doer is under law and with
law is its judgment and punishment. If under law, then the doer must perfectly achieve what Christ achieved with
no mercy or variation from that possible because mercy is the antithesis of law - both cannot coexist at the same
time. In other words, they would in effect have to become unto themselves, a Christ. However, this was impossible
for anyone but Christ. For those He chose, Christ undid what was Adam caused:
He took them out from being the subjects of law for salvation unto being the subjects of grace instead.

I could continue with this much further, and certainly have not covered it all, but if you think about it , you should be able develop a basic understanding from the above and postulate any missing pieces and perceive the terrible spiritual danger those who trust in their works are in.

You don't have to continue, since we agree that
WORKS DO NOT SAVE.

Boy wondering, you are just plain unable to understand what I've been saying. I'll try this one more time:
I never said we are not to engage in good works, I said that we are NOT to engage in good
works to become saved. There is a big difference between the two: one is an attempt to gain salvation; the other comes after and from salvation and are of no gain whatsoever. The first - the using good works to be saved - are an evil attempt to leverage works for an end apart from just the doing of them - trying to buy favor with God - the other, is by those who are already saved - not done for any gain because they already have the greatest gift and blessing a man can receive, so they are done solely by a true heart to no end except a sincere desire to do them, but not for gain.
Agreed.

So please stop telling everyone on this board that WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.
We all know this.
 
More works of God in His people.
Empathy comes from hearts speaking to each other. Clearly we are not speaking to each other.

King Saul was anointed with the Holy Spirit and started prophesying. This is what the coming of the new covenant was like upon the apostles. It was an announcement to the world of the gospel of grace through Jesus Christ shown in man. The apostles took heart that because gentiles equally were anointed with the Holy Spirit God was not limited to Jews to become Christians.

Paul was very disappointed with people coming to faith and showing nothing of its reality so said this,

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Our faith is a faith of action, of transformation of the heart, of breaking chains of sin and walking in love.
Without action one is nothing, literally. Love is not a dead fish proclaiming they are alive.

God bless you
Great posts.
As usual.
 
To make this simple, why don't you explain how you believe someone becomes saved.
Salvation economy teaches that we must believe that God exists.
We must believe in Him.
We must obey Him.

It's that simple.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says it all:
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
10For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.


God loves His creation (man) and made provision for Adam's fall.
By one man we were all lost,
By one man we all have been given life. (Christians).
1 Corinthians 15:22
Romans 5:17-18 - it states here too that righteousness with God is a gift.

Every Christian I know believes in the above.

Where we part is soteriology.

Romans 6:16 states that we are slaves to the one to whom WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
How that could possibly mean that we are our own savior, as the OP believes, is beyond me.
We present ourselves to the one we wish to serve.
"As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

This is what Joshua told the tribes of Israel in Joshua 24:14-15
He told them to "choose this day whom you will serve".
This denotes free will and the ability to choose God or not choose God.

You understand John 3:16 as being descriptive.
Every other denomination understands it to be prescriptive.
The prescription is: BELIEVE IN JESUS and YOU WILL BE SAVED.
(Not: Sure you believe in Jesus...God chose you to).
 
Salvation economy teaches that we must believe that God exists.
We must believe in Him.
We must obey Him.
Well, those "musts" make those things the laws of salvation. Otherwise,
they wouldn't be "musts". And if laws, then they must be achieved for salvation, and if to be achieved,
the recipient of salvation must be the one to bring them forth, and if he must bring them forth,
then work on his part was required. Otherwise, they would be gifts. If they are gifts, which I believe
the must be, then that would reflect my belief - that they are gifts from God.
So, according to your standard above, law and the works to satisfy those laws, are required for salvation
 
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Well, those "musts" make those things the laws of salvation. Otherwise,
they wouldn't be "musts". And if laws, then they must be achieved for salvation, and if to be achieved,
the recipient of salvation must be the one to bring them forth, and if he must bring them forth,
then work on his part was required. Otherwise, they would be gifts. If they are gifts, which I believe
the must be, then that would reflect my belief - that they are gifts from God.
So, according to your standard above, law and the works to satisfy those laws, are required for salvation
No Roger,
My MUSTS are not work.

we must believe that God exists.
We must believe in Him.
We must obey Him.


God has informed man of HOW to be saved.
Neither you nor Calvin can change the order of salvation.
You believe they are works because you're reformed in theology.
No other denomination believes as the reformed do.

We must believe God exists:
Romans 1:20 states that man has always known about God.
Paul and scripture state that man has always been aware of God through His creation.

Hebrews 11:6 states that HE WHO COMES TO GOD, MUST believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.


We must believe in Him:
Proverbs 3:5-6 We must believe enough in God to allow Him to lead our path.

John 20:31 The gospels and letters were written so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that by believing we may have life.

John 8:31 Jesus told those who believed Him that they were truly disciples of His.


We must obey Him:
John 5:29 Those who did good deeds will rise to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 3:36 He who does not obey the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of the Father abides on him.

John 14:15 If we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments.



You see Roger, I'm not stating the musts,
God is.
 
My MUSTS are not work.

Did you read what I posted? I said they are LAWs not works. Works are what is necessary to achieve
the laws. According to you, if those laws are achieved, then the person is saved, if they
aren't then the person isn't saved - that makes (according to you) the "musts" the laws of salvation, and their achievement, works. Law (the "musts") cannot exist without there also a demand made with them that must be achieved. The demands they make -- that must be achieved for salvation-- is that which turns the "musts" into laws.
 
Did you read what I posted? I said they are LAWs not works. Works are what is necessary to achieve
the laws. According to you, if those laws are achieved, then the person is saved, if they
aren't then the person isn't saved - that makes (according to you) the "musts" the laws of salvation, and their achievement, works. Law (the "musts") cannot exist without there also a demand made with them that must be achieved. The demands they make -- that must be achieved for salvation-- is that which turns the "musts" into laws.
You said work on our part is required if my musts are laws.

You give me an opinion.
As to how these musts turn into law.

Here's what I don't understand about your soteriology...

I gave you at least 2 verses to back up each Must...which is just how God established rules for salvation.

How do you just totally ignore them?
Do you trust your own insight more than scripture?

Do you believe God does the choosing for who will be saved?
Where is this idea in the NT.?
(Since Jesus is the perfect representation of God)
 
How do you just totally ignore them?

You'd have to supply exact verses so we're talking about exactly the same thing, but generally, I don't believe
there are any "musts" for salvation on the recipient's part. It is fully and completely a gift from God, along with the attributes thereof. They are the gifts that come from it, not to it. And they weren't ignored, they were satisfied in Christ, along with everything that pertains to salvation.
So, do you see now how that what you've been stating is actually law, with the achievement of it, work?

Do you believe God does the choosing for who will be saved?
Where is this idea in the NT.?

I absolutely believe that. It is called grace. The idea is not only in
the NT, it IS the OT and NT.

You give me an opinion.
As to how these musts turn into law.

They are the law of salvation because should they not be satisfied (according to you), the individual doesn't become saved. Can there be a greater law than that - one of eternal life or death? Again, these requirements are of your making not mine. I just took what you said that you believe to their logical conclusion to demonstrate to you what you're actually saying.
 
You'd have to supply exact verses so we're talking about exactly the same thing, but generally, I don't believe
there are any "musts" for salvation on the recipient's part. It is fully and completely a gift from God, along with the attributes thereof. They are the gifts that come from it, not to it. And they weren't ignored, they were satisfied in Christ, along with everything that pertains to salvation.
So, do you see now how that what you've been stating is actually law, with the achievement of it, work?



I absolutely believe that. It is called grace. The idea is not only in
the NT, it IS the OT and NT.



They are the law of salvation because should they not be satisfied (according to you), the individual doesn't become saved. Can there be a greater law than that - one of eternal life or death? Again, these requirements are of your making not mine. I just took what you said that you believe to their logical conclusion to demonstrate to you what you're actually saying.
Roger,
It's post 1672.
Check it out.
Tomorrow for above. Late here.
'Night.
 
The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work. If a person could believe in Christ before they are born again by the Spirit, it would mean they have done a work and that would mean they have worked for their salvation which is totally against what the scriptures teach. Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes. In fact, the Bible tells us that belief is the Work of God . . . not the work of men. The ability to believe comes by the Work of God.

John 6:29 NKJV - "Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 
The question isn't, "do you 'do' something to be saved?" The question is, "is what you are doing able to justify you?" Having faith is, of course, the only thing that you can do, and must do, in order to be justified. Paul says there is no boast in having faith, and so it does not constitute a 'work' of the works gospel that can not justify. Indeed, it is the ONLY work that a person can do that can justify. Having faith removes all boast of having done self righteous work, specifically, works of the law, in order to be justified.

Romans 3:26-27
26...to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

So there is no fear of serving a works gospel by doing the work of believing in order to be justified. It is the very thing you must do to be justified.
This is works.
 
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