Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

If we believe and teach that a sinner is justified before God by their own action of faith/believing, then we by default are teaching justification by ones meritorious act, whether its admitted or not.

I agree.
But there will be no justification without some action on our part.

 

[Hopeful]

If we believe and teach that a sinner is justified before God by their own action of faith/believing, then we by default are teaching justification by ones meritorious act, whether its admitted or not.

My reply to your post #137 was to point out that If Jesus is doing it all, we don't even need to even hear of, or believe, anything at all.
Do you really think anybody will be saved without believing the message of freedom that Christ brought?
I don't...so hearing, at least, is necessary on our part.

As the whole argument is over a moot point anyway, the outcome of the back-and-forth is of no weight.
Paul taught against the works of the Law being necessary for salvation.
But some have erroneously expanded Paul's teachings to include even hearing the message of the gospel.

 

[Hopeful]

I see you wedded to salvation by works, by what a man does. I must caution you that's against the biblical teaching of Salvation by Grace.

If a man offers you a cup of water, is your thirst slaked?
If a man offers you a cup of water, and you drink it, is your thirst slaked?

 

[rogerg]

Then you suppose some will be condemned because of God.
Personally, I believe that the condemned would have been cast out anyway.
Nothing would have persuaded them to believe the gospel, repent of sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins or endure faithfully till the end.
Their working response to God's gifts was a "NO".
So God used those in that rebellious state for His own good.

The "no" response is true for everyone until and unless becoming born-again by God. Those saved are not persuaded and then become born-again, they become born-again (by God) from which they become persuaded. Through the Holy Spirit their minds become renewed (given new spiritual minds). We were all dead in sin until saved and therefore completely unable to affect our own salvation.
The baptism that provides the remission of sin is only by the Holy Spirit. It is not a human effort but God's.

Believing it.
Manifesting that you believed it.

The above are gifts come from salvation, but are not its cause

He didn't receive it "for us".
We had to hear, believe, and act accordingly.

We don't receive it; that is, of ourselves, we neither receive salvation, hear or act accordingly to effectuate it; it is given, and given solely as a gift of God. Our participation is only as recipient. A gift doesn't truly become a gift until it is actually in a recipient's possession. Yet, we have been informed by God that salvation is indeed a free gift that is given freely (to some).

Yes, there was one thing missing...our acceptance of it.

Well, that conclusion is incorrect due to the reasons stated previously. But, if it were true, that would mean, logically speaking, there is no such thing as a Savior: should anything exist between the Savior, the recipient, and salvation which could deny salvation, then the Saviour isn't the one who saves. But, beyond all doubt, we absolutely know that Christ is the Saviour, so salvation is and must be solely dependent upon Him and upon no one nor anything else, including ourselves.

 

[brightfame52]

Wonderful question... good doubt..
Doing some thing for salvation is different
Without doing anything putting faith on free salvation is different
Jesus already finished it.. just believoing (without doing any thing) is not a verb ..
it is an inner action in soul/heart..
Direct payment / or work may leads us to work
without payment believing is an inner action.. not physcical verb, but it is inner action..

Inner action, thats a work friend.

 

[brightfame52]

No, you're just looking at it carnally. You seem to be giving little if any credence to matters of the heart and spirit.

What one does from the heart is not considered a work for it is from the heart. Understand? You must look at everything with a spiritual eye.

You sound carnal to me, advocating works salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree.
But there will be no justification without some action on our part.

You know you glued to salvation by works. May God be pleased to deliver you.

 

[brightfame52]

My reply to your post #137 was to point out that If Jesus is doing it all, we don't even need to even hear of, or believe, anything at all.
Do you really think anybody will be saved without believing the message of freedom that Christ brought?
I don't...so hearing, at least, is necessary on our part.

As the whole argument is over a moot point anyway, the outcome of the back-and-forth is of no weight.
Paul taught against the works of the Law being necessary for salvation.
But some have erroneously expanded Paul's teachings to include even hearing the message of the gospel.

If you condition any part of Salvation on what a man does, its works salvation and a forfeiture of salvation by grace.

 

[brightfame52]

If a man offers you a cup of water, is your thirst slaked?
If a man offers you a cup of water, and you drink it, is your thirst slaked?

You still promoting salvation by works. What happens if you offer a dead man a drink of water ?

 

[rogerg]

Yes, there was one thing missing...our acceptance of it.

I just want to add (and I hope that you'll truly ponder this), regarding the diametrically different and opposed ways we perceive salvation to occur. If I understand your POV correctly, you see becoming saved the result of a rational exercise of a natural, unsaved mind (given that we all begin as unsaved) which mind of itself somehow ascertains and adopts from the heart, the attributes and attitudes of a Christian. However, it is not possible that a man can change the spiritual within himself.
Instead, I (and others here) perceive salvation exclusively as a fundamental change OF the spirit of a man by God, the result of which changes the mind and causes adoption from the heart of the attributes of a Christian.

The Bible informs the following regarding the state of an unsaved mind. It tells us that natural unsaved man can never know the things of God because to do so they first must have become born again, in which case they are no longer of natural man; that is, in order to know things of the Spirit, man has to be given the Spirit, which natural man doesn't have. This is especially true regarding faith in Christ

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Hopeful]

The "no" response is true for everyone until and unless becoming born-again by God. Those saved are not persuaded and then become born-again, they become born-again (by God) from which they become persuaded.

How can you believe something you have yet to hear?
I heard/believed/accepted the message of the gospel, and then turned from sin and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
My rebirth came after I heard I could be free.

Through the Holy Spirit their minds become renewed (given new spiritual minds). We were all dead in sin until saved and therefore completely unable to affect our own salvation.
The baptism that provides the remission of sin is only by the Holy Spirit. It is not a human effort but God's.

You will need to show at least one example of that from scripture.
Paul's experience doesn't show that.
Neither did the Ethiopian eunuch or the jailer at Thyatira.
They all heard something they then decided to believe.

The above are gifts come from salvation, but are not its cause

How does one believe something they have no knowledge of?

We don't receive it; that is, of ourselves, we neither receive salvation, hear or act accordingly to effectuate it; it is given, and given solely as a gift of God. Our participation is only as recipient. A gift doesn't truly become a gift until it is actually in a recipient's possession. Yet, we have been informed by God that salvation is indeed a free gift that is given freely (to some).

A gift need both a giver and a recipient.
Your salvation is, according to you, given without your knowledge.
The gift is available to all who hear of and accept it as true.
It isn't a gift if it isn't accepted.

Well, that conclusion is incorrect due to the reasons stated previously. But, if it were true, that would mean, logically speaking, there is no such thing as a Savior: should anything exist between the Savior, the recipient, and salvation which could deny salvation, then the Saviour isn't the one who saves. But, beyond all doubt, we absolutely know that Christ is the Saviour, so salvation is and must be solely dependent upon Him and upon no one nor anything else, including ourselves.

If there is a gift given, there is a Giver of the gift.
All men are given a choice to follow, or ignore/reject that gift.
Rejecting it doesn't mean there was no Giver.

 

[Hopeful]

You know you glued to salvation by works. May God be pleased to deliver you.

As I have heard and accepted the gift of my own free will, turned from sin, gotten baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins, been reborn, and cast off the flesh, I still need to endure faithfully till the end to be saved.
Jesus said..."But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24:13)
Your message excludes that.

 

[Hopeful]

If you condition any part of Salvation on what a man does, its works salvation and a forfeiture of salvation by grace.

Your point is moot.
The works Paul taught against were the works of the Law.
As he wrote..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)
Even in this verse Paul believed in Jesus Christ "that we might be justified".
Which came first?
His belief or his justification?

 

[Hopeful]

You still promoting salvation by works. What happens if you offer a dead man a drink of water ?

I promote men choosing to be saved.
You seem to be promoting salvation without belief.

 

[Hopeful]

I just want to add (and I hope that you'll truly ponder this), regarding the diametrically different and opposed ways we perceive salvation to occur. If I understand your POV correctly, you see becoming saved the result of a rational exercise of a natural, unsaved mind (given that we all begin as unsaved) which mind of itself somehow ascertains and adopts from the heart, the attributes and attitudes of a Christian. However, it is not possible that a man can change the spiritual within himself.

I didn't "change the spiritual man within me".
I crucified the old man and all he was by being baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection..."to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:3-7)

Instead, I (and others here) perceive salvation exclusively as a fundamental change OF the spirit of a man by God, the result of which changes the mind and causes adoption from the heart of the attributes of a Christian.

That will justify the damned accusing God for their condemnation.

The Bible informs the following regarding the state of an unsaved mind. It tells us that natural unsaved man can never know the things of God because to do so they first must have become born again, in which case they are no longer of natural man; that is, in order to know things of the Spirit, man has to be given the Spirit, which natural man doesn't have. This is especially true regarding faith in Christ

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Your POV removes the choice from man and makes it God's fault so many will go to the lake of fire.
Why?
Because God didn't open their minds...according to your POV.
I can't abide by that.

 

[rogerg]

How can you believe something you have yet to hear?
I heard/believed/accepted the message of the gospel, and then turned from sin and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
My rebirth came after I heard I could be free.

Belief does NOT bring salvation. Belief is a fruit of the Spirit given as a result of being saved not the cause of it. God commits that all whom He has chosen to salvation will hear the Gospel. From that, their faith grows, but only because they have ALREADY become saved/born again

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

You will need to show at least one example of that from scripture.
Paul's experience doesn't show that.

Oh yes it does
1) From Paul:
[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The renewing of their mind PROVED the receipt of the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. In other words, the good and acceptable and perfect will of God had already transpired, their transformation was the result of it.

2) Where do you read in the Bible of Saul (Paul) of himself choosing to accept Christ or anything regarding Christ? Just the opposite in fact. Right up to the instant he was born again on the road to Damascus, he had accepted nothing, and it was his life's desire to imprison and kill Christians because of their belief- which he had already done. Saul instantaneously changed to a Christian without doing anything of himself. He went from the world's greatest anti-Christian protagonist to its most prolific biblical writer, almost immediately. Question: How did that happen and happen in that manner? Answer: Solely because God chose Saul to be saved and to be His instrument

How does one believe something they have no knowledge of?

They don't, but neither is belief a requirement for salvation. Belief comes after salvation. It is not the cause of it. God commits to providing the Gospel to all who He has chosen to become born again. It is from that, that belief is born, and grows. The reverse is also true: that unless someone is born-again, no matter how often they hear the Gospel, it will bring forth no change in them. They will consider it folly.

f there is a gift given, there is a Giver of the gift.
All men are given a choice to follow, or ignore/reject that gift.
Rejecting it doesn't mean there was no Giver.

There is a giver of the gift, but the gift is not given to all.
Unless born again, it is impossible to desire the gift. Before salvation
everyone is dead spiritually in sin, and incapable of giving to themselves
spiritual life - just as a physically dead person cannot give themselves physical life neither can a spiritually dead person give themselves spiritual life.
I never said nor did I imply there is no giver. The giver is God, but He only gives the
gift to certain people, not everyone. And whom He chooses to give it to, it shall be within themselves.

 

[rogerg]

I didn't "change the spiritual man within me".

Yeah, that's the point - that's what must change and only God can do that. It is by
that change that everything else occurs. You may think you changed yourself, but if so, you didn't.

That will justify the damned accusing God for their condemnation.

That statement is completely wrong and illogical

Your POV removes the choice from man and makes it God's fault so many will go to the lake of fire.
Why?
Because God didn't open their minds...according to your POV.
I can't abide by that.

Yes the choice is not with man. If it was, no one could be saved.
God is the Savior, isn't He? or are you? You seem to be saying that you are, and God isn't.

 

[Hopeful]

Belief does NOT bring salvation. Belief is a fruit of the Spirit given as a result of being saved not the cause of it. God commits that all whom He has chosen to salvation will hear the Gospel. From that, their faith grows, but only because they have ALREADY become saved/born again

So a lot of unbelievers are saved?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So there are some unfaithful believers?

Oh yes it does
1) From Paul:
[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The renewing of their mind PROVED the receipt of the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. In other words, the good and acceptable and perfect will of God had already transpired, their transformation was the result of it.

I agree with..."they had received it".
It wasn't forced onto them.

2) Where do you read in the Bible of Saul (Paul) of himself choosing to accept Christ or anything regarding Christ?

Acts 9:6..."And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Just the opposite in fact. Right up to the instant he was born again on the road to Damascus, he had accepted nothing, and it was his life's desire to imprison and kill Christians because of their belief- which he had already done. Saul instantaneously changed to a Christian without doing anything of himself. He went from the world's greatest anti-Christian protagonist to its most prolific biblical writer, almost immediately. Question: How did that happen and happen in that manner? Answer: Solely because God chose Saul to be saved and to be His instrument

He wasn't "born aqain" until after the death of his previous vessel. That occurred at his baptism into Christ, and into His death, burial, and resurrection...which he wrote about in Rom 6:3-7.

They don't, but neither is belief a requirement for salvation.

I feel we are done here.

Belief comes after salvation. It is not the cause of it. God commits to providing the Gospel to all who He has chosen to become born again. It is from that, that belief is born, and grows. The reverse is also true: that unless someone is born-again, no matter how often they hear the Gospel, it will bring forth no change in them. They will consider it folly.


There is a giver of the gift, but the gift is not given to all.
Unless born again, it is impossible to desire the gift. Before salvation
everyone is dead spiritually in sin, and incapable of giving to themselves
spiritual life - just as a physically dead person cannot give themselves physical life neither can a spiritually dead person give themselves spiritual life.
I never said nor did I imply there is no giver. The giver is God, but He only gives the
gift to certain people, not everyone. And whom He chooses to give it to, it shall be i within themselves.

 

[rogerg]

So a lot of unbelievers are saved?

All who are saved were unbelievers before becoming saved. Others, who are to be saved will be unbelievers right up to salvation.

So there are some unfaithful believers?

All the saved grow in faith throughout their lifetimes, so it depends upon what you mean when you say unfaithful. Regarding Christ, that He alone is the Savior, no, after they become saved, they will never be unfaithful with that.

[Rom 7:25 KJV] 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Acts 9:6..."And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

After his salvation - after encountering the Lord- not before.

He wasn't "born aqain" until after the death of his previous vessel. That occurred at his baptism into Christ, and into His death, burial, and resurrection...which he wrote about in Rom 6:3-7.

Nope.:

Saul saved
[Act 9:3 KJV]
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[Act 9:5 KJV]
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Saul born again

[Act 9:15-18 KJV]
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Saul born again

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I feel we are done here.

Your prerogative, but you seem to have a problem accepting that Christ is the Saviour

 

[rogerg]

So a lot of unbelievers are saved?

I want to modify my last reply. In it I said
"All who are saved were unbelievers before becoming saved. Others, who are to be saved will be unbelievers right up to salvation."

What I should have said was "All who have already become born-again, were unbelievers up to becoming born-again. Others, who are to become born-again, will be unbelievers right up to becoming born-again."