Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[jasoncran]

you mean justified. we arent made perfect at the inital repentance otherwise why the call to come out of our sins aka santification?

per you origins of the osas and also solo fide. we are saved at the cross being saved from the power of sin daily and saved physically when he returns or we are raised in the ressurection.

salvation my friend is a process. i am more christlike now then i was when i got saved in 1996. that doesnt mean i am more of a christian just that i have matured and deepened my love and walk.

 

[kjb1769]

Salvation is not a process it's an event.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Co 1:18

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 1 Ti 1:9

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5

What is on going is the process of perfecting the saints.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[francisdesales]

You have it backwards. We come to God as a sinner, He forgives by His Grace and then we receive the "perfection, which is Christ...Nobody (including glory) says that there's a verse that states, "You must be perfect to receive God's mercy." There is none...

Where is the requirement for ANY perfect Law follower in Scriptures? I have asked this dozens of times and now only today, "no one ever made that claim"...:o

I didn't say that Glorydaz stated "YOU must be perfect" before receiving mercy. What a pitiful twisting of the argument stated dozens of times...

I said that he states that "SOMEONE must be perfect". He has stated this over and over again. As have you.

ANY perfect Law follower apparently sets in motion God's Grace, and ONLY that. What is amazing is that the Jews experienced God's grace and had no IDEA of a perfect Law follower, in the modern sense of "perfect". No EXPECTATION that there WOULD be an utterly sinless one!!! There is little in the Scriptures to suggest that God HIMSELF would come in the flesh to provide this "future" act of Justice that God apparently demanded.

The Bible states on numerous occasions that God turns His face to men when they repent. There is no need for a perfect Law follower to speak for the people FIRST - although certainly, a holy man can more powerfully intercede for God's mercy. God desires the beginning of repentance and mercy. Was there ANY perfect Law followers in Assyria when Jonah witnessed the conversion of thousands - and God saved them from destruction? This is one example of many. Is there any suggestion where Jonah states "well, God's justice will be satisfied, not by these Assyrians, but in the future, another will perfectly do it for them"?

Read the very end of Jonah, God's explanation of WHY He granted mercy to the Assyrians and even their cattle. NOTHING is said about any such thing about a future requirement that "enables" God to grant mercy "today"...

The idea of perfection to satisfy God is unknown to the Jews of the OT. You would think that THEY would be aware of such a "rule"?

Considering that NO Biblical verses have been used to back up this claim, we must wonder about the origin of this man-made tradition that you two so tightly hold onto.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

The only Faith and Works Necessary for Salvation was that of Christ, His Faith or Faithfulness and His work of the Cross saved all for whom He died..

 

[Gazelle]

Where is the requirement for ANY perfect Law follower in Scriptures? I have asked this dozens of times and now only today, "no one ever made that claim"...

I've had a doost of a time following this thread, and having read it over and over again continued to see all you saying basically the same thing... and thus I did not join in. I almost posted, "what is the issue again?" but alas, didn't.

Now... fill me in what the issue is in this thread (that hasn't been solved) please?

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe they should consider what they are saying "Amen" to, rather than jumping up and down in adulation without realizing they are being led over the precipice.

God is a merciful God. No perfection required. Just a repentant heart.

Amen!

I've decided I'm going to try and give you two sentences, worded slightly different, every time I respond to you. That way, perhaps, I'll have a better chance of your understanding what I've said.

Saying Amen means that you comprehend and agree with what's been said.
Consideration of the point made is part of saying Amen.

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

 

[glorydaz]

If Christian's stay quiet and not spread the Gospel for "fear" that they are spreading "a Gospel of works" how will the message get out there?? If someone asks us about salvation, according to some, we (because of the truth we believe in) have to tell them, that "only" the elect (chosen of God) get saved. and they must, wait and see if God chooses them. Because (if this is your doctrine) you can't tell them to do anything because it would be considered a work, such as, faith, believe, trust, repent, accept, etc...So all you could do is say, Jesus died for some (only the elect) You "dare" not say anything else, other than that, or the person your telling may start to believe, trust, place their faith in Christ, repent, etc., and (according to "your" belief system) those would be works. Therefore, they could not get saved... So you must be very,very careful while discussing Christ with anyone, for fear "you" may lead them into a "works" salvation... It would probably be best if (those) who believed that way, didn't say anything... And just let God "choose" who He's "already" chosen before the foundation of the world... It's better to be safe than sorry...

AMEN, brother. And thank the Lord we don't find them on the mission field. Instead of a gospel of hope, it would be a gospel of "perhaps, if you're lucky." I figure forums such as this are the best place for them, and for those who can show, through the Word, where their doctrine falls short.

 

[glorydaz]

By the look of the arguments that persist over this, it looks like you and I were the only ones to understand it.

For the sake of others, I'll repeat it:

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

There. That should put an end to the arguments. :yes

Amen again. The "works" we do after salvation are actually the fruit of the Spirit, and should not be done by our own self-effort. If the Lord says, "Go," we go. If He says, "Stay," we stay. We're to wait upon the Lord, not go before Him leading the way. That's a lesson I learned the hard way.

I hope no one misunderstands what I say here. I'm not implying we sit around and do nothing. I'm simply saying we're to be sensitive to the Lord's leading.

 

[Gazelle]

International Standard Version (©2008)
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.​

I think fear is not quite the word to use...but be aware of how we present the gospel? Yes, of course we should be...

If someone isn't sure about how to present Christ, then this is where using their own personal testimony of conviction, repentance and redemption can be excellent.

 

[glorydaz]

oh it wont. funny joe would agree and yet get told he is wrong. i say it this way it faith with works not faith alone. for it said faith is real it will have deeds behind it.

I think you're a little mixed up, there, Jason. It's Joe who tells people they're wrong after they simply give an opinion. Not only that, but he continues to bring up all the places one's been "wrong" long after the discussion should have ceased. It's difficult to have to defend against being called a "cheerleader" or a preacher of "false doctrine" and not repond with, "You're wrong, that isn't what I was saying."

As to your point about faith. We're justified before God by faith. We're justified before men with our deeds.

God sees into our heart, and knows whether we have faith.
Men can only see our deeds, so that's how they can know we have faith.

 

[glorydaz]

We need to see Scriptural evidence of this. You have lost your credibility here because you cannot - while pretending to be a "sola scriptura" person. You keep saying it, but you can't back it up... Man-made traditions that rely on man-made ideas of justice. Where does the Bible state that God requires perfection before He grants mercy? HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE ASKED THAT?

The OT is chock full of examples of mercy - even granted to formerly evil people...

See what I mean, JASON?



God's mercy to mankind is His sending His Son to redeem us from sin. Punishment is withheld from man because the Perfect and Just One came to pay the price for man's sins. To distance mercy from punishment, and man's need for Jesus Christ and the Cross - the sinless sacrifice - is doing a disservice to His work on the cross.

You seem to be confusing mercy and grace. Mercy is withheld punishment, while grace is God's unmerited favor. I've posted the scripture of how God "winked" at sin until Jesus came to die on the cross, but you dismiss it as unimportant. It's critical to understanding mercy, because God's mercy has conditions, such as repentance. It isn't shown to those who don't believe they deserve punishment. They can think they'll be justified by the law, but the law convicts all sin.

God extends mercy to those who know they deserve punishment, and it's a withholding of that punishment. From what you've posted thus far, you appear to be taking God's mercy for granted. Repentance is a requirement for God's mercy to be shown. If you read the OT, as you claim, you'll see what I'm saying is true. To dismiss the mercy seat, which was a picture of Christ in the OT, and just shout out mercy as if it were grace, is the reason I even continue in this discussion with you.

Without this part of God's plan, mercy would never have been shown. Mercy is withheld punishment until the spotless lamb should come. Which has been my entire point all along.

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[francisdesales]

God's mercy to mankind is His sending His Son to redeem us from sin.

It is merciful, indeed, that God has done this. That is not the issue.

Rewind to the OT. God is called "merciful". Is He not? Now, how would the Jews know this if they were unaware of God's plan to send His Son to redeem mankind??? Do THEY suggest that God will someday send a perfect Law follower - and that CURRENT mercy-granting is dependent upon that future coming Person?

Am I clear on this? Where does the bible state this requirement that God send mercy based upon FIRST having a perfect Law follower, somewhere, in time???

How did the Jews know, from experience, that God is a merciful God? They never suggest that mercy is based only upon withheld punishment. Mercy is based upon empathy for the one who is suffering pitifully.

Again, salvation, in your theology, stresses works and the law. In addition, it states that God is "paying back" the "Law" so that Justice was met. God apparently must meet Justice (is Justice more powerful than God, forcing Him to send His Son to die???) It seems very odd - Is God paying for redemption of man to the devil? To the "IDEA" of justice? Who is God repaying?

Punishment is withheld from man because the Perfect and Just One came to pay the price for man's sins.

The OT clearly points out numerous examples of man being punished, not only in this life, but in the next. Any mention of "the pit", rest assured, is punishment that can properly be called "hell". It was not being held in abeyance!!!

To distance mercy from punishment, and man's need for Jesus Christ and the Cross - the sinless sacrifice - is doing a disservice to His work on the cross.

Actually, the opposite, as you make Christ's sacrifice a necessity of the Law, rather than an act of incredibly surpassing love. What it appears that you are saying is that if God wanted to save mankind, He had to kill His Son... That perverts that SELF-SACRIFICE of Christ in restoring mankind to friendship with God, lost in the Garden (not lost by man's individual personal sin. It was original sin that Christ came to heal, the effect of man's separation from eternal life because we are BORN into it, not because we have failed to fulfill the Law). Remember, we are BORN in a state of separation from God. THAT is what Christ is restoring with His death, not the fulfillment of perfection that a law requires - which forces God into a corner to make such a choice for our sake.

You seem to be confusing mercy and grace. Mercy is withheld punishment,

:eeeekkk

Mercy is the attitude of love when confronted with suffering and misery. Again, you are so situated on the law and the supposed necessity of perfection, you miss out on the primary reason God came to save us - He is merciful when we cry out to Him.

Isn't that clear? Why did God decide to rescue the Israelites in Egypt? Why did God's mercy come forth? Because God was withholding His punishment????????2

Even humans give money to others out of mercy for their suffering and condition, not because we are withholding punishment. I am amazed how brainwashed you have become by this idea of justice and law following...

I've posted the scripture of how God "winked" at sin until Jesus came to die on the cross, but you dismiss it as unimportant.

God didn't "wink" at sin. God has Jerusalem razed to the GROUND and His people were dispersed to the four winds. The OT is clear on why that happened...

It's critical to understanding mercy, because God's mercy has conditions, such as repentance.

Bravo, you said something useful and true. So as not to be totally negative, I will grant you kudos when you are correct.

 

[Danus]

By the look of the arguments that persist over this, it looks like you and I were the only ones to understand it.

For the sake of others, I'll repeat it:

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

There. That should put an end to the arguments. :yes

No, reba is not the only one who agree's with your sttament. I'll second it. The OP also agrees, but has little knowledge of traditional theologies.

So.....be very very "Qwuiet".. They are hunting The Roman church and Calvanist, I think, using a new type of theology called "Amalgamaus-Cameleon'orus- Scriptora"

 

[glorydaz]

It is merciful, indeed, that God has done this. That is not the issue.

Rewind to the OT. God is called "merciful". Is He not? Now, how would the Jews know this if they were unaware of God's plan to send His Son to redeem mankind??? Do THEY suggest that God will someday send a perfect Law follower - and that CURRENT mercy-granting is dependent upon that future coming Person?

Why do you think it would matter if the Jews knew or not about the coming Saviour? They did know that blood was required from a spotless lamb to atone for their sins. Every cleansing ritual they had was because they knew God was righteous and required all sacrifices and intruments relating to it to be pure. They knew God could not be approached by man and that they needed atonement for their sins. It's like making your kids start a college fund before they really know what college is or what it can mean for their future.

Am I clear on this? Where does the bible state this requirement that God send mercy based upon FIRST having a perfect Law follower, somewhere, in time???

It's only "somewhere in time" to man. It was not "somewhere in time" to God. It was His plan from the beginning to send a Saviour. You really should know that, Joe.

How did the Jews know, from experience, that God is a merciful God? They never suggest that mercy is based only upon withheld punishment. Mercy is based upon empathy for the one who is suffering pitifully.

They understood God's wrath, so they understood God's Mercy when He withheld His wrath.

Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the LORD thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the LORD.

Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

They knew what was required to appease God's wrath.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Again, salvation, in your theology, stresses works and the law. In addition, it states that God is "paying back" the "Law" so that Justice was met. God apparently must meet Justice (is Justice more powerful than God, forcing Him to send His Son to die???) It seems very odd - Is God paying for redemption of man to the devil? To the "IDEA" of justice? Who is God repaying?

What? Are you serious? First off, no way I have ever given works any merit in man's salvation. In fact, I've argued against it consistantly. Will you please stop making stuff up? Is Justice more powerful than God? Are you serious? God is Justice for He is the judge...shall not he do right? The rest of your statement is nothing short of ridiculous. It's God's requirement that you have an argument against. Take it up with Him.

Actually, the opposite, as you make Christ's sacrifice a necessity of the Law, rather than an act of incredibly surpassing love. What it appears that you are saying is that if God wanted to save mankind, He had to kill His Son... That perverts that SELF-SACRIFICE of Christ in restoring mankind to friendship with God, lost in the Garden (not lost by man's individual personal sin. It was original sin that Christ came to heal, the effect of man's separation from eternal life because we are BORN into it, not because we have failed to fulfill the Law). Remember, we are BORN in a state of separation from God. THAT is what Christ is restoring with His death, not the fulfillment of perfection that a law requires - which forces God into a corner to make such a choice for our sake.

In the first place, He didn't have to kill His Son. He chose to come in human form to provide a way for man to come back into fellowship with Him. Nope, I just won't agree with you on the original sin argument. The rest of what you write is a bunch of hooey...excuse the expression. ;) If this is the best you can do, I'm pretty much wasting my effot even attempting to explain. If you have one or two things you'd like to discuss...lay it on me. Until then, these rambling posts of yours are simply an attempt to stir the pot and I'm not into such games.

 

[glorydaz]

No, reba is not the only one who agree's with your sttament. I'll second it. The OP also agrees, but has little knowledge of traditional theologies.

So.....be very very "Qwuiet".. They are hunting The Roman church and Calvanist, I think, using a new type of theology called "Amalgamaus-Cameleon'orus- Scriptora"

Thank God for lack of knowledge in traditional theologies. I can see for myself the results of that.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you think it would matter if the Jews knew or not about the coming Saviour?

Let's make this as simple as possible. You are just going in circles repeating the same thing without any evidence...

Did the Jews of the OT consider God merciful or not. Please answer the question.

If "Yes", please tell me why THEY thought that God was merciful.

Regards

 

[Stormcrow]

Mercy is withheld punishment, while grace is God's unmerited favor.

Guess I don't understand how this answers the original question:

"Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"

Works are not needed to be saved. They are needed to show the world you ARE saved.

{14} "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; {15} nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. {16} "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16 (NASB)

{20} because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 (NASB)

{27} Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. {28} For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Romans 3:27-28 (NASB)

{15} "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; {16} nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Galatians 2:15-16 (NASB)

{2} This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:2 (NASB)

{8} For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; {9} not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. {10} For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

The new creation comes before the works. Salvation comes before the works. And it's critically important to remember that the works being discussed here are not works of keeping the Law of Moses. That system has been abolished. (Read the book of Hebrews for confirmation of this fact.)

The works being described here are the kind of works Jesus did on earth when He was moved by compassion to serve others. It means having a servant's heart and doing things for people that let them see Christ in you.

Again: it is NOT following a set of rules or regulations. It is seeing people in need and helping them.

{17} Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. {18} Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, {19} storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. 1 Timothy 6:17-19 (NASB)

Finally, with regard to what James writes here:

{17} Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17 (NASB)

A dead tree produces no fruit. A dead faith produces no works, therefore while faith alone saves us, good works are the expression of a living faith. Good works should necessarily follow saving faith, just as James also writes:

{18} But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18 (NASB)

Faith saves us. Good works show others how vital our faith is. I really don't get the source of any disagreement over this.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Guess I don't understand how this answers the original question:

"Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"

Works are not needed to be saved. They are needed to show the world you ARE saved.

{14} "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; {15} nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. {16} "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16 (NASB)

{20} because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 (NASB)

{27} Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. {28} For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Romans 3:27-28 (NASB)

{15} "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; {16} nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. Galatians 2:15-16 (NASB)

{2} This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:2 (NASB)

{8} For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; {9} not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. {10} For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

The new creation comes before the works. Salvation comes before the works. And it's critically important to remember that the works being discussed here are not works of keeping the Law of Moses. That system has been abolished. (Read the book of Hebrews for confirmation of this fact.)

The works being described here are the kind of works Jesus did on earth when He was moved by compassion to serve others. It means having a servant's heart and doing things for people that let them see Christ in you.

Again: it is NOT following a set of rules or regulations. It is seeing people in need and helping them.

{17} Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. {18} Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, {19} storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. 1 Timothy 6:17-19 (NASB)

Finally, with regard to what James writes here:

{17} Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:17 (NASB)

A dead tree produces no fruit. A dead faith produces no works, therefore while faith alone saves us, good works are the expression of a living faith. Good works should necessarily follow saving faith, just as James also writes:

{18} But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18 (NASB)

Faith saves us. Good works show others how vital our faith is. I really don't get the source of any disagreement over this.

Amen!!

 

[glorydaz]

Let's make this as simple as possible. You are just going in circles repeating the same thing without any evidence...

Did the Jews of the OT consider God merciful or not. Please answer the question.

If "Yes", please tell me why THEY thought that God was merciful.

Regards

Well, it wasn't because He kept leading them into captivity, that's for sure.

They knew God was merciful because he gave them a way to have their sins forgiven.
The Atonement. They knew they served a Holy and Righteous and Wrathful and Jealous God.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen again. The "works" we do after salvation are actually the fruit of the Spirit, and should not be done by our own self-effort. If the Lord says, "Go," we go. If He says, "Stay," we stay. We're to wait upon the Lord, not go before Him leading the way. That's a lesson I learned the hard way.

I hope no one misunderstands what I say here. I'm not implying we sit around and do nothing. I'm simply saying we're to be sensitive to the Lord's leading.

AMEN!!!