Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[reba]

Play nice folks.... Do you need " time out "?

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[glorydaz]

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I think people get the wrong idea from those verses.

The quote from Isaiah is how man is in comparison to the GLORY OF GOD.
Even a man with a speck of darkness can never measure up to the Glory of God.

The glory of God is so overwhelming that no man can look at God and live. Moses was only allowed to see God's glory (shekinah) as God was passing by, and while God shielded him with His hand.

Just as the arc contained God's Glory, Jesus is the Glory of God in a human tabernacle.

That's why man cannot come into the presence of God unless we're wearing the righteous robe of Christ.

 

[reba]

In the scope of salvation what else matters?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, I am hoping he picks up a Bible and reads a few Psalms, say 130 or 51. With an open mind, there is hope that the Spirit will touch his heart and recant of the error of his understanding that God is only merciful when the perfect are concerned...

It's hard to MISS "God is merciful" in the OLD Testament. BEFORE Jesus, the perfect Law follower!!!

One wonders how the two of you can compliment that fact with what you are "pedaling" here....

Regards

Good to see you, Joe. You keep speaking of God's mercy, but you don't seem to see when and how God's mercy is applied. Nor do you seem to consider how many times God sent Israel in captivity because of their idolatry and sabbath breaking. No one on the face of the earth has suffered at the Hand of God like Israel has...from the beginning. How many times have we seen God wash His Hands of Israel and then repent and grant them mercy as we read through the Old Testament? Too many times for me to count....although I'm sure someone has.

Before the Just and Righteous One came and laid down His life for us, God had to wink at (overlook) the sins of man. In the Old Testament God provided a mercy seat which was the "throne of God"...throne of Glory in the Ark of the Covenant. Jesus is that Mercy Seat. The Glory of God in a human body (tabernacle)

It's shown here in Hebrews...

For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

The Greek word for Mercy Seat is 'hilasterion'. That's the same word you see here - PROPITIATION

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

We did need a "perfect law-doer" just the same way the nation of Israel needed their mercy seat.

He was the tabernacle of the Glory of God. God doesn't dwell in anything impure.

 

[glorydaz]

NP Glory. What, does man simply lie in his hammock awaiting God's salvation to be bestowed upon him, doing nothing at all? No. For if you don't actively accept Christ, then you cannot enter heaven.

Perhaps it is semantics that confuses this member? However, it is the attitude of the heart, the contrite spirit that causes repentance with a man. Is contrition then a work? If God does everything, then man has no free will and we are all just a part of God's big virtual reality game.

Haha...nice analogy, Gazelle. I'm afraid a lot of people don't accept man's free will. I'm really quite surprised about that since they should know from their own experience with their own conscience.

And what, then, of disobedience? There is sure a lot of disobedience spoken of in the Word. How can it even be called disobedience if man isn't free to do it?

 

[glorydaz]

In the scope of salvation what else matters?

I'm sorry, reba, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you elaborate?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The funny part is when they are cheerleading for the other...

Regards

Yes, I can see the essence of a complex dialog occurring here...An interesting usage of intermingled discourse, arranged in such a way, as to create a perplexing dichotomy...

 

[reba]

I'm sorry, reba, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you elaborate?

Just a reply to your post #242

 

[glorydaz]

Just a reply to your post #242

Ah, yes, in the scope of salvation our thoughts about the condition of man seem pretty irrelevant, I guess.

Except, of course, as we share the good news with the unbelievers. We certainly don't seem as credible if we tell them some are picked for salvation and some aren't. Or if we tell them how terrible men are when they aren't such horrible people as Rom. 3 depicts. It's important that they know that's in comparison to the righteousness of God. That they can agree with.

 

[glorydaz]

The funny part is when they are cheerleading for the other...

Yes, I can see the essence of a complex dialog occurring here...An interesting usage of intermingled discourse, arranged in such a way, as to create a perplexing dichotomy...

LOL...I hadn't noticed this comment from our friend, Joe. That's the second time he's mentioned "cheerleading". I don't think they have the freedom to say Amen in agreement where Joe fellowships. It's pretty common in my world. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

I think they are twins. Perhaps Siamese twins. I've never seen them apart.

That's right. We're members of the same body. :nod

And this is our motto...

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."
(2 Cor. 6)

 

[reba]

Ah, yes, in the scope of salvation our thoughts about the condition of man seem pretty irrelevant, I guess.

Except, of course, as we share the good news with the unbelievers. We certainly don't seem as credible if we tell them some are picked for salvation and some aren't. Or if we tell them how terrible men are when they aren't such horrible people as Rom. 3 depicts. It's important that they know that's in comparison to the righteousness of God. That they can agree with.

We are told to share the gospel The good news of Christ , Amen ?. Gods word says what it says.

 

[glorydaz]

We are told to share the gospel The good news of Christ , Amen ?. Gods word says what it says.

We are, but we're not to hinder the power of the gospel by claiming it's saying something it isn't.

Yes, we should tell them we are sinners and come short of the glory of God...that Jesus died for their sins so that they could be restored to fellowship with the Creator...for sin is what separates us from God. But, we do not want to turn them away from the message of salvation by suggesting it's only available to certain select ones, or that their sins are so horrible that God won't accept them. Telling them the prison door has been opened and they need only trust and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, is a message of hope instead of defeat.

And, to be honest, reba, there is a lot of stuff posted on here that is not the gospel message of Christ. Man can't allow his own interpretations to get in the way of the "good news". Sharing the Word, without a bunch of "explaining" is always the better way to go. Then we know it is God's Word and not our own.

And, we certainly should NOT be telling them that they can't choose to accept the Lord's offer of salvation.
What kind of a message would that be?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If Christian's stay quiet and not spread the Gospel for "fear" that they are spreading "a Gospel of works" how will the message get out there?? If someone asks us about salvation, according to some, we (because of the truth we believe in) have to tell them, that "only" the elect (chosen of God) get saved. and they must, wait and see if God chooses them. Because (if this is your doctrine) you can't tell them to do anything because it would be considered a work, such as, faith, believe, trust, repent, accept, etc...So all you could do is say, Jesus died for some (only the elect) You "dare" not say anything else, other than that, or the person your telling may start to believe, trust, place their faith in Christ, repent, etc., and (according to "your" belief system) those would be works. Therefore, they could not get saved... So you must be very,very careful while discussing Christ with anyone, for fear "you" may lead them into a "works" salvation... It would probably be best if (those) who believed that way, didn't say anything... And just let God "choose" who He's "already" chosen before the foundation of the world... It's better to be safe than sorry...

 

[Stormcrow]

Well said

By the look of the arguments that persist over this, it looks like you and I were the only ones to understand it.

For the sake of others, I'll repeat it:

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

There. That should put an end to the arguments. :yes

 

[jasoncran]

By the look of the arguments that persist over this, it looks like you and I were the only ones to understand it.

For the sake of others, I'll repeat it:

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

There. That should put an end to the arguments. :yes

oh it wont. funny joe would agree and yet get told he is wrong. i say it this way it faith with works not faith alone. for it said faith is real it will have deeds behind it.

 

[francisdesales]

We did need a "perfect law-doer" just the same way the nation of Israel needed their mercy seat.

We need to see Scriptural evidence of this. You have lost your credibility here because you cannot - while pretending to be a "sola scriptura" person. You keep saying it, but you can't back it up... Man-made traditions that rely on man-made ideas of justice. Where does the Bible state that God requires perfection before He grants mercy? HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE ASKED THAT?

The OT is chock full of examples of mercy - even granted to formerly evil people...

 

[francisdesales]

LOL...I hadn't noticed this comment from our friend, Joe. That's the second time he's mentioned "cheerleading". I don't think they have the freedom to say Amen in agreement where Joe fellowships. It's pretty common in my world. ;)

Maybe they should consider what they are saying "Amen" to, rather than jumping up and down in adulation without realizing they are being led over the precipice.

God is a merciful God. No perfection required. Just a repentant heart.

Amen!

 

[jasoncran]

sigh the death of the lord was to change the covenant as that was made clear by paul.

the law wasnt enough to pay for man in that it didnt redeem him, and it was also for the jews only. how could god reach the gentiles? the jews refused him and didnt do his will so he had to change the way and go to the gentiles to get things done. he didnt have to but that is the way he did it.

in the ot days theres was a way to be saved it was called the ot sacrifices after faith as in that you had to believe in god then agree to a circumision but its really funny that moses talked about circumise the foreskin of your heart. hmm what did that mean? now back to where i was. the laws were for a person to be forgiven.

the death of the cross and new man was spoken of in the prophets and what is that heart of flesh? i will tell you that new nature we get.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We need to see Scriptural evidence of this. You have lost your credibility here because you cannot - while pretending to be a "sola scriptura" person. You keep saying it, but you can't back it up... Man-made traditions that rely on man-made ideas of justice. Where does the Bible state that God requires perfection before He grants mercy? HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE ASKED THAT?

The OT is chock full of examples of mercy - even granted to formerly evil people...

You have it backwards. We come to God as a sinner, He forgives by His Grace and then we receive the "perfection, which is Christ...Nobody (including glory) says that there's a verse that states, "You must be perfect to receive God's mercy." There is none...So I would whole heartily suggest, you either, do a search on Google for the verse (that doesn't exist) or just compromise with yourself that there's, no answer available to you at this time...Then pray that God will grant you wisdom in this area...As you always say, Regards...