Is God immutable?

[unred typo]

Hei, Jon-Marc, where have you been keeping yourself these days? Question: by knowing what will happen before it happens, are you talking about a day or a week or a year or 10,000 years? Technically, foreknowledge can be knowing something 2 minutes before it will happen. If you are God, and you can do more in 2 minutes than 10,000 angels could do in 10,000 years, I’d say that would give God enough time to accomplish whatever he planned or desired to happen if he changed his mind a hundred times a minute to keep ahead of us unruly bunch of genetic mutants, wouldn‘t you? Just my guess, here. Good point about repenting, btw.

I believe you’re right about that, too. God doesn’t have to change his character to change his mind or his actions. Verses that tell us that he doesn’t change probably mean just that. Also I believe that his substance never ages or, rather, grows old or loses power or knowledge. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[JM]

I haven't read all the pages on this subject and don't know if this was mentioned. In Genesis 6:7 just before God destroys the world with the flood, He says, "it repenteth me that I have made them."

I have always believed (and still do) that God knows everything that will happen before it happens, and yet this makes it sound as though He didn't know and was sorry that He created man. While God's character cannot change, apparently He can change His mind.

Barnes wrote, "Repentance ascribed to the Lord seems to imply wavering or change of purpose in the Eternal Self-existent One. But the sublime dictate of the inspired word is, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?†Num_23:19. In sooth, every act here recorded - the observation, the resolve, the exception - seems equally with the repentance to jar with the unchangeableness of God. To go to the root of the matter, every act of the divine will, of creative power, or of interference with the order of nature, seems at variance with inflexibility of purpose. But, in the first place, man has a finite mind and a limited sphere of observation, and therefore is not able to conceive or express thoughts or acts exactly as they are in God, but only as they are in himself. Secondly, God is a spirit, and therefore has the attributes of personality, freedom, and holiness; and the passage before us is designed to set forth these in all the reality of their action, and thereby to distinguish the freedom of the eternal mind from the fatalism of inert matter. Hence, thirdly, these statements represent real processes of the Divine Spirit, analogous at least to those of the human. And, lastly, to verify this representation, it is not necessary that we should be able to comprehend or construe to ourselves in all its practical detail that sublime harmony which subsists between the liberty and the immutability of God. That change of state which is essential to will, liberty, and activity, may be, for aught we know, and from what we know must be, in profound unison with the eternity of the divine purpose."

 

[JM]

Hei, Jon-Marc, where have you been keeping yourself these days? Question: by knowing what will happen before it happens, are you talking about a day or a week or a year or 10,000 years? Technically, foreknowledge can be knowing something 2 minutes before it will happen. If you are God, and you can do more in 2 minutes than 10,000 angels could do in 10,000 years, I’d say that would give God enough time to accomplish whatever he planned or desired to happen if he changed his mind a hundred times a minute to keep ahead of us unruly bunch of genetic mutants, wouldn‘t you? Just my guess, here. Good point about repenting, btw.

I believe you’re right about that, too. God doesn’t have to change his character to change his mind or his actions. Verses that tell us that he doesn’t change probably mean just that. Also I believe that his substance never ages or, rather, grows old or loses power or knowledge. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

If what you say is true, then God could change His mind concerning this whole salvation game He has us performing and toss us all in hell, or save everyone of us...heck, He could change His mind about what He considers good and allow only the pagans into to heaven and send believers in Christ to hell. That's a possiblity for a God that changes His mind.

If our acts are able to change God's mind, then God doesn't have perfect knowledge, this "god" you describe is more manlike then Godlike.

~JM~

 

[TanNinety]

If what you say is true, then God could change His mind concerning this whole salvation game He has us performing and toss us all in hell, or save everyone of us...heck, He could change His mind about what He considers good and allow only the pagans into to heaven and send believers in Christ to hell. That's a possiblity for a God that changes His mind.

What's wrong with it if He does send pagans to heaven and send believers to hell? Are you saying His actions are governed and are under control of morals?
If God has to follow it, then who made this morality that even God has to follow? If you say God Himself made morality, then it is a plausible answer for the open theist that God Himself made a universe where there are free will agents that allow God not to exhaustively know the future. You are not making God any greater or diminishing Him than an open theist.

 

[JM]

What's wrong with it if He does send pagans to heaven and send believers to hell? Are you saying His actions are governed and are under control of morals?
If God has to follow it, then who made this morality that even God has to follow? If you say God Himself made morality, then it is a plausible answer for the open theist that God Himself made a universe where there are free will agents that allow God not to exhaustively know the future. You are not making God any greater or diminishing Him than an open theist.

That would make God a liar, which isn't Biblical but open theists do not adhere to the Bible anyway.

Tan, you're describing Allah not Yahweh.

God doesn't "follow" anything, things are the way they are because God decreed them to be so.

If you say God Himself made morality, then it is a plausible answer for the open theist that God Himself made a universe where there are free will agents that allow God not to exhaustively know the future. You are not making God any greater or diminishing Him than an open theist.

This is basic Bible 101: Morality is an expression of the essence of God. God is moral because that's the way He is, morality doesn't exist outside of God, it's part of His nature.

~JM~

 

[unred typo]

If what you say is true, then God could change His mind concerning this whole salvation game He has us performing and toss us all in hell, or save everyone of us...heck, He could change His mind about what He considers good and allow only the pagans into to heaven and send believers in Christ to hell. That's a possiblity for a God that changes His mind.
If our acts are able to change God's mind, then God doesn't have perfect knowledge, this "god" you describe is more manlike then Godlike.

JM, can you change your mind? So you might leave your wife and join a traveling circus? Maybe since you can change your mind, you might decide to trade your car for a camel and ride it to work. Maybe then you might trade it for a motorcycle and join a gang and terrorize your old neighbors and shoot your mother. Being able to change your mind is a pretty scary thing, isn’t it? You better not let your God have that power. No telling what your God might decide to do.

My God isn’t like that though. He is love and his attributes are unchangeable. No matter how he has to meet whatever situation we put before him, he acts in love, mercy, truth and fairness. He does all things well and can be depended on. When he tells you to repent or suffer the consequences of your sin, you can believe that he means it. When he says that if the wicked will forsake their sins, he will abundantly pardon, he’s not just saying that to hear himself talk and make it sound like he would actually forgive them. He means it. You can trust him never to lie or act erratically. Maybe it’s time to get a new God, JM.

Man is created in God’s image. We can change our minds when the situations around us change. So can he. Our God is an awesome God and he calls himself the great ‘I Am that I Am’, a God who lives and acts in the nanosecond by nanosecond universe he created. He is ever present to help in time of need. His knowledge is no less perfect because he doesn’t know what is not there to be known, and when it becomes reality, he knows it altogether before anyone else, and how best to react to the zillion new complications it may create. He’s on top of it. While your God is shuffling out to read tomorrow’s news that he wrote a million years ago, my God is constantly checking every particle of new information streaming into his dynamic intelligence from every atom in his entire creation to handle every new situation that could possibly arise. Too kool.
:-D

 

[TanNinety]

I have to admit,

God doesn't "follow" anything, things are the way they are because God decreed them to be so.

that was exactly the response I was fishing out of you with my post.

Things are the way they are because God decreed them to be so. An open theist can take the same position that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge because He decreed it to be so, so that He can relate to humans who are limited in a more meaningful way. I do not doubt the capability of God. Could He create a universe where He knows past, present and future exhaustively? I absolutely believe He can. Did He create ours that way? I have not enough reason to believe so.

 

[JM]

Then we agree, your god is not omniscience [from the Latin omnis = “all†combined with scientia = “knowledge†the combination meaning to know all or to have perfect knowledge] and is therefore not the God of Biblical Christianity.

~JM~

 

[JM]

I have to admit,


that was exactly the response I was fishing out of you with my post.

Things are the way they are because God decreed them to be so. An open theist can take the same position that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge because He decreed it to be so, so that He can relate to humans who are limited in a more meaningful way. I do not doubt the capability of God. Could He create a universe where He knows past, present and future exhaustively? I absolutely believe He can. Did He create ours that way? I have not enough reason to believe so.

I guess the Bible isn't enough then.

A mixed bag of quotes:

God knows all things perfectly (Ps. 147:5; Job 37:16; 1 John 3:20), sees and hears everything (Ex 3:7; 2 Chr 16:9; Ps 34:15; 102:19, 20; Pr 5:21; 15:3; Jer. 16:16), knows from all eternity the entire plan of the ages and the part of every man in that plan (Isa. 46:9-11; 48:3-7; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:3-12).

God has perfect knowledge of each individual person and of all his ways (Ps. 33:13-15; 139:1-16; Pr. 5:21), his words (Ps. 139:4; Matt. 12:35-37), his thoughts (1 Chr 28:9; Ps. 94:11; 139:1-2; Matt. 9:4), his afflictions and trials (Gen. 21:17-19; 1 Cor. 10:13; Rev. 2:9-10, 13) and his future actions and final state (Gen. 18:19; Ex. 3:19; Isa. 44:28-45:5; Matt. 25:31-34, 41; Acts 27:22-25).

God’s omniscience means that nothing anyone does escapes the knowledge of God and that one day we will be called to give an account at the bar of God for God will deal with each according to the truth of his life (Ro 2:2, 3, 6; 14:10-12). For more information on the various judgments, see The Doctrine of the Judgments.

God's omniscience gives us confidence in prayer knowing that He will not lose our prayers and that He always knows the best answer, even knowing our needs before we ask (Matt. 6:31-34; Isa. 65:24).

John Owen:

"He sees the inside of all; and what men are there, that they are to him. He sees not as we see, but ponders the hidden man of the heart. No humble, broken, contrite soul, shall lose one sigh or groan after him, and communion with him; no pant of love or desire is hid from him,--he sees in secret; no glorious performance of the most glorious hypocrite will avail with him,--his eyes look through all, and the filth of their hearts lies naked before him."

Tacit Assumption and Explicit Affirmation:

Scripture everywhere teaches the absolute universality of the divine knowledge. In the historical books, although there is no abstract formula, and occasional anthropomorphic references to God's taking knowledge of things occur (Ge 11:5; 18:21; Dt 8:3), none the less the principle is everywhere presupposed in what is related about God's cognizance of the doings of man, about the hearing of prayer, the disclosing of the future (1 Sa 16:7; 23:9-12; 1 Ki 8:39; 2 Chr 16:9). Explicit affirmation of the principle is made in the Psalter, the Prophets, the chokhmah literature and in the New Testament. This is due to the increased internalizing of religion, by which its hidden side, to which the divine omniscience corresponds, receives greater emphasis (Job 26:6; 28:24; 34:22; Ps 139:12; 147:4; Pr 15:3,11; Isa 40:26; Acts 1:24; Heb 4:13; Rev 2:23).

Extends to All Spheres:

This absolute universality is affirmed with reference to the various categories that comprise within themselves all that is possible or actual. It extends to God's own being, as well as to what exists outside of Him in the created world. God has perfect possession in consciousness of His own being. The unconscious finds no place in Him (Acts 15:18; 1 John 1:5). Next to Himself God knows the world in its totality. This knowledge extends to small as well as to great affairs (Mt 6:8,32; 10:30); to the hidden heart and mind of man as well as to that which is open and manifest (Job 11:11; 34:21,23; Ps 14:2; 17:2; 33:13-18; 102:19; 139:1-4; Pr 5:21; 15:3; Isaiah 29:15; Jer 17:10; Amos 4:13; Lk16:15; Acts 1:24; 1 Thess 2:4; Heb 4:13; Rev 2:23). It extends to all the divisions of time, the past, present and future alike (Job 14:17; Ps56:8; Isa 41:22-24; 44:6-8; Jer 1:5; Hos13:12; Mal 3:16). It embraces that which is contingent from the human viewpoint as well as that which is certain (1 Sa23:9-12; Mt 11:22,23).

Mode of the Divine Knowledge:

Scripture brings God's knowledge into connection with His omnipresence.

Ps 139 is the clearest expression of this. Omniscience is the omnipresence of cognition (Je 23:23). It is also closely related to God's eternity, for the latter makes Him in His knowledge independent of the limitations of time (Isa43:8-12). God's creative relation to all that exists is represented as underlying His omniscience (Ps 33:15; 97:9; 139:13; Isaiah 29:15). His all-comprehensive purpose forms the basis of His knowledge of all events and developments (Isa 41:22-27; Amos 3:7).

This, however, does not mean that God's knowledge of things is identical with His creation of them, as has been suggested by Augustine and others. The act of creation, while necessarily connected with the knowledge of that which is to be actual, is not identical with such knowledge or with the purpose on which such knowledge rests, for in God, as well as in man, the intellect and the will are distinct faculties. In the last analysis, God's knowledge of the world has its source in His self-knowledge. The world is a revelation of God. All that is actual or possible in it therefore is a reflection in created form of what exists uncreated in God, and thus the knowledge of the one becomes a reproduction of the knowledge of the other (Acts 17:27; Ro1:20). The divine knowledge of the world also partakes of the quality of the divine self-knowledge in this respect, that it is never dormant. God does not depend for embracing the multitude and complexity of the existing world on such mental processes as abstraction and generalization.

The Bible nowhere represents Him as attaining to knowledge by reasoning, but everywhere as simply knowing. From what has been said about the immanent sources of the divine knowledge, it follows that the latter is not a posteriori derived from its objects, as all human knowledge based on experience is, but is exercised without receptivity or dependence. In knowing, as well as in all other activities of His nature, God is sovereign and self-sufficient. In cognizing the reality of all things He needs not wait upon the things, but draws His knowledge directly from the basis of reality as it lies in Himself. While the two are thus closely connected it is nevertheless of importance to distinguish between God's knowledge of Himself and God's knowledge of the world, and also between His knowledge of the actual and His knowledge of the possible. These distinctions mark off theistic conception of omniscience from the pantheistic idea regarding it. God is not bound up in His life with the world in such a sense as to have no scope of activity beyond it.

[end of quote]

http://www.preceptaustin.org/notes_for_ ... of_god_(ii).htm#OMNISCIENT

Just read the Bible.

~JM~

 

[Drew]

That would make God a liar, which isn't Biblical but open theists do not adhere to the Bible anyway.

Please substantiate this claim and be specific. How, precisely, have open theists shown that they do not "adhere to the Bible"? Obviously, no intelligent reader is going to believe your claim unless you show how an open theist's position is actually inconsistent with the Scriptures. It is not enough to take a text and simply claim that there is only one interpretation and that those who disagree with this interpretation "do not believe the Bible". Of course, this principle applies to all.

But you made a strong claim that requires justification.

 

[Solo]

If all individuals were recognized in the Bible you wouldn't be able to carry it around. In other words, if Jeremiah wrote of God's knowing each one of them and their lot in life it would be ignorant, for example, Jeremiah could have written, "Before I formed you in the womb, TanNinety, I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a heretic believing the lie of Open Theism in front of the entire 123 Christian forum."

You still did not answer my question. Let me rephrase it.
Just an Example:
If I say to Solo, "You sir are an idiot. You will go stand in the corner". Can you deduce that I said the whole of humanity are a bunch of idiots and in the latter part of my sentence only singled out Solo to stand in the corner?

All would know that you were intellectually challenged in making such an assessment, and also that you did not know God the Father based on your lack of understanding of His character. I suspect that many would lead you to read Jesus' teaching in John 3 instead of Jeremiah 1:5 so that you could receive the foundation of Jesus Christ to begin your trek into the spiritual things of God.

 

[Drew]

The argument that an open theist position robs God of his omniscience is false.

To quote Gregory Boyd:

"The view that I shall defend agrees unequivocally with the classical view that God is omniscient, but it embraces a different understanding of creation. It holds that the reality that God perfectly knows not only excludes some possibilities as what might have been, but also includes other possibilities as what might be. Reality, in other words, is composed of both settled and open aspects. Since God knows all of reality perfectly, this view holds that he knows the possible aspects as possible and knows the settled aspects as settled. In this view, the sovereign creator settles whatever he wants to settle about the future, and hence he perfectly foreknows the future as settled to this extent. He leaves open whatever he wants to leave open, and hence he perfectly foreknows the future as possible to this extent. "

 

[Solo]

Is Gregory Boyd being honest in his assessment of God's Omniscience? Dr. Roger Nicole states the following after his review of Gregory Boyd's book entitled, God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Publishing Co.)

• "Scriptures that seem to support unlimited knowledge and control by God. In his preface, Boyd informs us that some years back “he combed through the entire Bible†carefully noting every passage supporting the view that the future is entirely settled in God’s mind and every passage suggesting that the future is to some extent open (8). One would expect that in chapter 1 he would give us the benefit of the first part of his list. One is therefore greatly surprised that four-and-a-half pages with a total of thirty-two references suffice him for this purpose, followed by a twenty-three-page cursory explanation of these and other passages on the premise of the view of an “open†future.
  
  Some sixty years ago, in connection with the preparation of the thesis for my first doctorate, I did precisely the same thing. In the course of reading the entire Scripture within two weeks, I noted carefully the Scriptures that manifested the detailed divine control and those that marked the impact of human finite decisions. My list was easily ten times as large, and the impact of this total reading within a short time left me with the overwhelming impression of the solid, thorough, and detailed divine control over the whole universe, including rational agents.
  
  Would you believe that the Scripture index at the end of Boyd’s volume contains no reference to any of the twenty-six passages in which the words “elect†or “election†are found, except Romans 8:33; 9:11; and 11:28? And Romans 8:33 is mentioned merely as a reference to Romans 8:31-39 as showing that “our eternal relationship with God is secure,†as if we had no free will that could destroy it.
  
  Would you believe that out of nine passages referring to God’s purpose before creation, only four are mentioned at all (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Peter 1:20; and Revelation 13:8, which is not even listed in the Scripture index), and when they are referred to they are interpreted as meaning only that there will be some people saved but that God does not know who they are? So our foreknowledge is deemed to have precisely the same extent as God’s foreknowledge.
  
  Would you believe that there are at least eighty-nine passages, in addition to those in which election is stated, in which God is presented as the one who chooses those on whom he will bestow his blessing, but that only five of these are listed in the Scripture index (1 Samuel 2:28; Ezekiel 20:5; John 6:70; 13:18; Ephesians 1:4, and the first two are actually listed as evidence that God changed his mind!)?
  
  Would you believe that John 15:16, Ephesians 1:11, and 1 Peter 1:2 are not even mentioned in the book? The discussion of Romans 9-11 is postponed until chapter 4, question thirteen (139-44). Obviously Boyd has given short shrift to this part of the task."

The complete book review can be read at http://www.the-highway.com/possible_Nicole.html

 

[TanNinety]

All would know that you were intellectually challenged in making such an assessment, and also that you did not know God the Father based on your lack of understanding of His character. I suspect that many would lead you to read Jesus' teaching in John 3 instead of Jeremiah 1:5 so that you could receive the foundation of Jesus Christ to begin your trek into the spiritual things of God.

For a second I thought you were saying God knows everything. Didn't realize you were trying to prove that you are the know-it-all who decides even the status of my salvation. I have no clue why I thought discussing this again with you guys would be any different than the previous times :

I'm out of this thread. Just watch out that your head doesn't swell in winning the debate because the narrow path leads to a narrow gate, we have to make sure your head fits through there.

 

[Solo]

For a second I thought you were saying God knows everything. Didn't realize you were trying to prove that you are the know-it-all who decides even the status of my salvation. I have no clue why I thought discussing this again with you guys would be any different than the previous times :

I'm out of this thread. Just watch out that your head doesn't swell in winning the debate because the narrow path leads to a narrow gate, we have to make sure your head fits through there.

Let me help you. The narrow GATE leads to the narrow PATH. If you need assistence, just holler and I'll give you a hand.

And don't forget that born again believers have the mind of Christ, and know the character of God regardless of the mockery of those who are accusers of the brethen.

 

[Lewis]

God changes his mind many times. What doesn’t change is God’s character and his motives and his attributes. He will always be omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), with omniscient being cognizant of every particle of knowledge that can possibly be known in every place in the entire creation, including the thoughts and intents of every thinking and/or feeling creature, at every present moment of time. (the future not included because it does not exist now any more than the past exists still). He also is absolutely holy, (all righteous) and purest Love, (all merciful).

He knew us before we were born because we existed for about 9 months before we were born, and our substance was not hidden from him in the womb.

He changes his mind because man repents and receives mercy instead of judgment, or he sins and receives judgment instead of blessing. If this were not true the entire Bible is a farce and a lie, and the God of the Bible the biggest liar of all. Thankfully, this is not the case. When God says he wants you to repent and believe the gospel, he means it.
YESSSS!!!:-D

Wrong' He knew us from the foundations of the world. That statement waters down God's power. Everything is known to God. Because everthing is before Him' in the eternal now. There are a couple of statements in the english Bible that makes you wonder. To Abraham when he was going to kill his son. And after he stopped Abaraham' God said (now I know) and there is another one' I forgot where. But I have never looked that statement up' in the original language and or translation.

 

[unred typo]

Then we agree, your god is not omniscience [from the Latin omnis = “all†combined with scientia = “knowledge†the combination meaning to know all or to have perfect knowledge] and is therefore not the God of Biblical Christianity. ~JM~

Was this your answer to my post, JM? I wish you would put my name somewhere so I’d know that. If it is, I don’t know why. My God knows every particle of information and wisdom and understanding and “ALL scientia†that can be known.

The future is just not there to be known. It’s not a place. It’s not even events that will happen. It’s only a concept of counting the passing increments of time during occurrences that haven’t happened yet and may not even occur. The events of the future that may or may not happen do not exist. The only thing that exists to be known are the plans God has for the time to come. When he says something will happen, you can write that down. He will make that event happen, come hail or high water.

Can God know everything in the future if you have any free will at all? Consider this extreme case:

Let’s pretend that God ‘knows’ you are going to choose to quit your church, buy a AK-47 and a motorcycle and go on a killing rampage next Sunday between 1 and 5 and then ride off to Mexico to live as a fugitive for the rest of your life. Next Sunday comes and goes, and instead you have decided that you’re not really as upset about the pastor’s choice of words in his sermon and you’re not feeling as totally depraved as he said you were.

Was God’s knowledge of your actions in error? What can he know in the future that can be changed if his knowledge is perfect? Either nothing can be changed, (your explanation) or the future does not exist to be known. (my explanation) Your way leaves you as a puppet completely controlled by God. Some may prefer that because it takes all responsibility out of their hands and leaves God guilty of allowing sin that he could and should have stopped, since free will is only an illusion that he has created, and the pleas by God for men to change and repent are corny charades.
:roll:

 

[unred typo]

knows from all eternity the entire plan of the ages and the part of every man in that plan (Isa. 46:9-11; 48:3-7; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:3-12)….
Scripture brings God's knowledge into connection with His omnipresence. Ps 139 is the clearest expression of this. Omniscience is the omnipresence of cognition (Je 23:23). It is also closely related to God's eternity, for the latter makes Him in His knowledge independent of the limitations of time (Isa43:8-12). God's creative relation to all that exists is represented as underlying His omniscience (Ps 33:15; 97:9; 139:13; Isaiah 29:15). His all-comprehensive purpose forms the basis of His knowledge of all events and developments (Isa 41:22-27; Amos 3:7).

I challenge anyone to look up these references you gave and read them with an open mind:
Isaiah 46:9-11 “declaring the end from the beginning†is just declaring that God can say what is going to happen in the end because he is all powerful and nothing can thwart whatever he desires to do.
Isaiah 48:3-7 “I have even from the beginning declared it to you†says that God makes prophesies that he fulfills to show them that he can do whatever he says he will do, and he tells them beforehand so they can see it is he who does them and not their false gods.
Acts 15:18 is declaring that God has a plan for the future and he knows what he is capable of doing.
Ephesians 1:3-12 is just a statement that God has plans and promises for those who remain in Christ and finish the course that he has laid out before them. Anyone who sets their heart on God can be the person that these promises are written to. The promises are to “whosoever will†follow Christ, continue in his way and repent of sins, keeping themselves in the love of God, by the blood of Christ cleansing them from all unrighteousness.

Job 14:17 “My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and you sew up mine iniquity“ really doesn‘t even speak of the future, nor does the rest of the chapter.

Psalm 56:8 “You tell my wanderings: put you my tears into your bottle: are they not in your book?†is just Job asking God to keep take of his sorrows, knowing that God is watching over him.

Isaiah 41:22-24 and 44:6-8 make mention of the fact that only a true God could successfully predict the future. God can say ‘this or that’ will happen in the future because he can control anything to cause it to come to pass. No other ‘god’ or demon can do this without trickery and with 100% accuracy.

Jeremiah 1:5 is talking about DNA, and the cells of Jeremiah being formed in the womb. When this was written, people didn’t understand about such things as DNA so they might have erroneously interpreted such verses as ‘knowing the future.’ God planned for him to be a prophet before he was born, probably because he wanted his severe message delivered by a man with a gentle nature.

Hosea 13:12 “The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hidâ€Â, in no way deals with the future except to say that God has recorded their deeds and plans to deal with their sin.

Malachi 3:16 is past and present tense (not future knowledge) saying that God “heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORDâ€Â.

1 Samuel 23:9-12 is an example of man inquiring about future events that God is in control of. In this passage, God knows what the plans of these men are, and what is their intentions and desires toward David and he warns him through use of the ephod.

Matthew 11:22-23 speaks of the fact that God, knowing the hearts of the people of Sodom, knew they would have repented if they had been shown the miracles Jerusalem had seen. Sodom was not given this chance since their deeds were so evil, they were to be punished for them to make other nations see and fear God‘s wrath. If you read Jasher, you will see much more unmerciful wickedness and cruel savagery than merely being homosexuals.

Isaiah 43:8-12 repeats the same idea that God is in control and his plans cannot be stopped. No one can rain on his parade.

Jeremiah 23:23-24 and Psalm 33:15 and Psalm 97:9
say that God is aware of everything and nothing escapes his knowing.

Psalm 139:13 says God knows us from the moment of conception.

Isaiah 29:15 warns those who think God can’t see in the dark.

Isaiah 41:22-27 was quoted and explained above.

Amos 3:7 says that “surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets….†This is hardly a statement to base an assertion that God knows the future. This is a pathetic list of misused scripture so far, JM. Do you have anything of real substance?

These are fun, but not too challenging.
:-D

 

[unred typo]

Ask me whatever questions you have for me in question format without the excess "wind" and I will answer them for you. Thanks.

Explain what ‘wind’ you would like removed from my last post here and I will remove it.

 

[JM]

Quote: A true and consistent O.T [OT = Open Theist] would have to be a Deist, as this is the only consistent position for one who denies God's pre-determination of history. The god of the Deist only involves himself in the first creation and the reward/punishment of the soul after death. Everything in-between is supposed to proceed based on the inherent goodness that their god invested in creation at the beginning. The good 'outweighs' the bad in the creation and therefore 'guarantees' that the historical process will continue--even though none of it is predestined.

But most who profess Christianity and play the harlot with O.T. want a synthesis, of course. So these teach that their god has determined only certain events within history and left the rest to the random process of Deism. How this 'mix' of predetermination and open history exactly fits together is conveniently left to a theology of paradox. The whole thing is completely illogical--as every historical event is dependent on every other historical event that preceeds it falling into place with exact precision. But the O.T. tries to explain away the paradox by saying that its god constantly observes a non-determined history, is even changed emotionally by what he (or she!) observes, and looks for opportunities to carry out within it what he or she has determined to perform.