IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

Fastfredy0

I'd like to go thru that long post of yours.
LOL ALL your posts are long !!

You had asked me some questions.
Let's go thru the answers...we will each say what we believe (in 25 words or less!!) but we will not debate. It would take a few years time.


Here they are:


Fastfredy0 asks:

When we are given "free will" and who is given "free will" questions

1) Concerning babies, mentally handicapped, the aborted, etc ... Do they have "free will" or does God chose their salvific destiny?

Some could have free will....some cannot.
They are saved by God's mercy.

2) Concerning those that have never heard the gospel. I am going on the assumption you believe they go to hell as "faith cometh by hearing" and 'we are saved by faith' and Romans 1 saying 'they are without excuse'. So, do they have 'free will' or does God chose their salvific destiny? (aside: if you think they can be saved, what is the method?)

Every person alive has free will,,,even those in Romans 1:19
And we've already gone thru this.

3) Can those that are dead have 'free will'?

No.

4a) Assuming we have 'free will' to chose, can those who chose to believe (or saved) use their 'free will' to change their minds (not believe) or does God take away their 'free will' once they have believed?

Great question.
God never takes away our free will, not even after we're saved.
This is why we can still sin.

4b) If you believe a person continues to have 'free will' through their lifetime .... then assuming person believes/disbelieves on alternate days (yeah, silly but you get the point) and considering God determines when we die (Job 14:5) ... isn't it God that determines if this wayward person is saved? ... that person is playing the 'free will' salvific lottery.

Your question assumes that God predetermines a persons death.
I don't believe this to be true...
But anyway, yes, a person can decide to become lost again.

5) When we get to heaven, does God take away our 'free will'? Assuming you believe we no longer have 'free will' in heaven, isn't that the method whereby we show God we love Him? If we have 'free will' in heaven, can we get demoted to hell?

Not sure what you mean by no longer having free will in heaven is the method by which we show God we love Him. If we're in heaven..we've already demonstrated our love for God.

And no,,,we cannot be demoted to hell.
It is appointed for man to die once,,,and then comes the judgement.

6) You define 'free will' as the ability to chose without external interference. Given I did not chose to be given a sin nature/born in sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3), it seems that this is 'interference' and therefore I am not free to chose/ I do not have 'free will' as a 'sin nature' is influencing me negatively (like having no wings influences my desire to fly). Comment please

Adam chose for you. He also had free will to sin.
You did not choose to have a sin nature...true...
but you can still decide to sin or not to sin.

Easier not to sin if guided by the Holy Spirit.


Interesting questions.
Your turn.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What does Sovereignty mean to you?

Word definition is important to understand what a person means.

Hi JLB

Word Definition is important ... agreed
I don't think you have defined God's sovereignty. Word definition is important to understand what a person means.

I wrote a long answer. I decided not to publish as I need your definition of God's sovereignty.

I will repeat my definition:
My definition ... There is not a single molecule (or anything else) that does not do what God planned out in eternity before anything existed and therefore independent of any influence.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
Note the word 'everything'. I defined everything ALL THINGS. I think you define 'everything' as ALL THINGS less the earth which man controls.

Gods even plans out evil events. I use evil events as this to man seems the least palatable and thus most illustrates my point.
Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

'Wondering' asked me to not list lots of verses (smile)

 

[OzSpen]

... Hey, the first few times Oz posted I thought he might be reformed. I am sure he and I agree on more that we disagree.
Oz .... you are welcome anytime to join us on 'the dark (reformed)' side (I better specific that the Dark Side is reference to "Star Wars")

Fred,

I am Reformed in my theology, but that's Reformed Arminianism. Until his dying day, Jacob Arminius was a Dutch Reformed minister, teaching at the Dutch Reformed University of Leiden.

Do you want to know some of the teachings of Reformed Arminianism (the theology of Jacobus Arminius)? Take a read of this interview with a Reformed Arminian on the Calvinistic Reformed site, The Gospel Coalition.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

(you didn't tag him in)

I tried to figure out how to "TAG" for something else. Not sure how to do it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

WOW ... direct answer to direct question. Thank you.

Some clarification needed:

Some could have free will....some cannot.
They are saved by God's mercy.

The question was in regard to babies. Do you have scripture to back this up or any evidence? How does this work? Assuming a baby had free will, what must it do to be saved?

Every person alive has free will,,,even those in Romans 1:19
And we've already gone thru this.

This was about those dying that had not heard the gospel. Refresh me please. I think you said they are saved by their righteousness. If I got this wrong, how are they saved. If I got your explanation correct ... would you define this as "salvation by works" and if so, can they 'boast'.

Great question.
God never takes away our free will, not even after we're saved.
This is why we can still sin.

I assume that in heaven you believe we cannot freely decide to disobey God?

Thank you for your previous answers.

Bonus question: Can God be pleased/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? Specifically, can God be glorified by a person having faith when that belief was not caused by Him? I am not asking about other aspects of salvation that are God's work, just the part that you do independent of Him (believing). If you answer, "God is glorified by something He didn't cause, how does that work as it is taking credit for something he didn't do?

Your posts indicate you are a strong Christian so I don't mind asking you piercing questions.
Thanks for previous answers. I usually don't get direct answers to direct questions.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Take a read of this interview with a Reformed Arminian on the Calvinistic Reformed site, The Gospel Coalition.

Thank you for the URL. It was informative. I see I shouldn’t put all Arminians in the same boat now. Thanks for making things even more complicated. LOL

Observation 1
Devil is in the details but, looks like we agree on the following:

totally depraved sinner with no help outside of divine grace … I assume you are a Prevenient GRACE guy ???

what it means to be justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith alone,

what Christ’s penal substitutionary atoning work is all about,

how a believer grows in grace and is sanctified,

original sin (My definition: a hereditary corruption and depravity of our nature, extending to all the parts of the soul, which first makes us obnoxious to the wrath of God, and then produces in us works which in Scripture are termed works of the flesh. Imputed from Adam.)

Christ’s active and passive obedience are imputed to the believer in justification.

Looks like you believe I can lose my faith and if I do, no second chance … whereas Wesleyan doctrine would say I can believe/unbelieve unendingly … and I would say anyone who has faith will never lose it.

That’s my take on quick glance.

Observation 2

Unfortunately, most popular Arminianism is semi-Pelagian, closer to Finney than Wesley. Even though Wesley is further from Reformed theology than we would be, he wasn’t as far as Finney … Wesley rejected a full-orbed penal substitutionary atonement and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness… veered toward legalism in his reaction to antinomianism.
Well, getting hard for me to pin down Arminianism ... suppose it can't be done entirely.

Questions
I assume you believe in saved by grace alone and faith alone through Christ alone?

I assume you would say obedience is not a requirement of salvation do to doctrine of faith alone; rather obedience would ALWAYS be present in Christians, though imperfect?

So, would you be a T.U.L.I.P. two pointer ??
Total Depravity (with Prevenient grace)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement
Irresistible Grace (Regeneration) or The Efficacious Call of the Spirit
Perseverance of the Saints (unless they lose their faith)?

Thanks for link. Labels like Reform and Arminian are not useless, but definitely not fool proof either.

 

[WIP]

I tried to figure out how to "TAG" for something else. Not sure how to do it.

To tag another member, type the @ symbol before their name. Here, I'll tag you by typing @ Fastfredy0 without the space between the symbol and your name, so it comes out like this, Fastfredy0.

 

[JLB]

Word Definition is important ... agreed
I don't think you have defined God's sovereignty. Word definition is important to understand what a person means.

I wrote a long answer. I decided not to publish as I need your definition of God's sovereignty.

I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty.

To me it’s not a biblical word.


Sovereign is about as far as I will go, and that is not found in the KJV or NKJV.

Potentate is the word in the KJV and NKJV.

NASB uses Sovereign in place of Potentate.

The word is a noun.

It means ruler.

Most people in this Forum, use the word Sovereign as an adjective, to describe an attribute of God.


God is a Sovereign; a ruler. Specifically He is King of kings and Lord of Lords. The Supreme Ruler among rulers.


Because God is a Sovereign, who is supreme, He has given the earth to the sons of men.


The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalm 115:16


Mankind is responsible to obey God as the King of kings and Lord of lords.


We have a choice to obey Him, or obey unrighteousnes.


“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

I will repeat my definition:
My definition ... There is not a single molecule (or anything else) that does not do what God planned out in eternity before anything existed and therefore independent of any influence.

Here is a verse from the NASB and the NKJV.

The NASB uses the word Sovereignty.


The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NASB


The LORD has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NKJV


NKJV uses the word kingdom.


Do you believe God’s was for Adam to disobey Him?

Or

Do you believe that God foresaw what Adam would do and planned accordingly, allowing for Adam’s freedom of choice?


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I tried to figure out how to "TAG" for something else. Not sure how to do it.

Tag by putting an @ immediately before a pen name to tag me, type OzSpen

I typed an @ before OzSpen and up came the link to me: OzSpen.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I tried to figure out how to "TAG" for something else. Not sure how to do it.

Easy.
Use the "at" sign
@

and then write the persons name right after it.
Like this
Fastfredy0

You'll find that the name will come up in a list after you type the first 2 letters....
click on the name,,,it's easier.

Try it with me....
No charge for today.

 

[GodsGrace]

WOW ... direct answer to direct question. Thank you.

Some clarification needed:



The question was in regard to babies. Do you have scripture to back this up or any evidence? How does this work? Assuming a baby had free will, what must it do to be saved?

The question was in regards to babies and mentally handicapped persons.
A baby has free will. Try telling a one year old to sit still !
However, when I said they may or may not have free will, I was referring to the mentally handicapped. Some have free will and some don't even know they're alive. I believe they are all saved. (since they never reached an age of reason).
This is a bit complicated---sorry.

This was about those dying that had not heard the gospel. Refresh me please. I think you said they are saved by their righteousness. If I got this wrong, how are they saved. If I got your explanation correct ... would you define this as "salvation by works" and if so, can they 'boast'.

Fred, I've explained this to you a few times now.
Last time: Persons that have not heard the gospel message are not saved by their righteousness.
EVERYONE is saved by faith in God....the same Almighty and sovereign God YOU know and love.
No such thing as salvation by works. Read Romans 1:19-20 really really welll and you'll understand what I, and many many other Christians believe.
What confuses the situation is Jesus saying that we can be saved only through Him.
Think of who He was speaking to.
Think of what He meant.
HOW do we go to the Father?

I assume that in heaven you believe we cannot freely decide to disobey God?

LOL
This is a silly question.
Why would you want to disobey God IN HEAVEN!!!!!!
You're in heaven for goodness sake.
No more sin nature.
No more disobeying God.
Heaven is PERFECT.

Bonus question: Can God be pleased/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? Specifically, can God be glorified by a person having faith when that belief was not caused by Him? I am not asking about other aspects of salvation that are God's work, just the part that you do independent of Him (believing). If you answer, "God is glorified by something He didn't cause, how does that work as it is taking credit for something he didn't do?

No time for theological discussion right now --- maybe later.
But let me put it this way.......

I buy a cute robot puppy.
He loves me and follows me all over.
Am I glorified by this?

I buy a real puppy.
He loves me all on his very own
and follows me all over...
Am I glorified by this?

Your posts indicate you are a strong Christian so I don't mind asking you piercing questions.
Thanks for previous answers. I usually don't get direct answers to direct questions.

Everyone should be direct.
How else to speak?

 

[GodsGrace]

Fred,

I am Reformed in my theology, but that's Reformed Arminianism. Until his dying day, Jacob Arminius was a Dutch Reformed minister, teaching at the Dutch Reformed University of Leiden.

Do you want to know some of the teachings of Reformed Arminianism (the theology of Jacobus Arminius)? Take a read of this interview with a Reformed Arminian on the Calvinistic Reformed site, The Gospel Coalition.

Oz

Hi Oz,,,
I also read some of the article you linked.
I see now why we have a problem with the word IMPUTED.
The article says we are imputed with Jesus' righteousness.

I agree. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness because of our own
doing we cannot save ourselves...

In Adam's case we are not imputed with Adam's sin of eating the fruit....
but we can say that we are imputed with HIS sin nature that HE brought about.

IOW,,, we personally are not responsible for his sin....
but we still get the sin nature.
This can be referred to as being affected by Adam's sin
even though we are not personally responsible for it.

Can we agree?

 

[PeterJens]

Hi JLB

Word Definition is important ... agreed
I don't think you have defined God's sovereignty. Word definition is important to understand what a person means.

I wrote a long answer. I decided not to publish as I need your definition of God's sovereignty.

I will repeat my definition:
My definition ... There is not a single molecule (or anything else) that does not do what God planned out in eternity before anything existed and therefore independent of any influence.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
Note the word 'everything'. I defined everything ALL THINGS. I think you define 'everything' as ALL THINGS less the earth which man controls.

Gods even plans out evil events. I use evil events as this to man seems the least palatable and thus most illustrates my point.
Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

'Wondering' asked me to not list lots of verses (smile)

I see God allowing evil to reign as the mirror to love and righteousness.
He planned that I would write this to you, that love and grace would touch your heart and that you could freely respond.
Determinism merely states everything could be dictated, God chooses not to do so. And that truly is His creative miracle, to balance everything so well, that rebellion is possible but hidden, that love is the driving force of life, that lost man could knock, ask, seek and He does answer. God bless you

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty.

To me it’s not a biblical word.

Sovereign is about as far as I will go, and that is not found in the KJV or NKJV.

Hey JLB
Well, since the question at hand is : Is God Still Sovereign
and you don't have a definition ... I am basically talking to myself. Therefore, it seems pointless for us to correspond about this subject.

I liked your quotations about how others perceive God.

I am not sure how you believe Psalm 115:16 fits in, but as you can't define the terms of the question (specifically what God's sovereignty means); it seems pointless to delve into details of an undefined question.

The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NASB

Using logic:
Permise 1: I [JLB] don’t have a definition for Sovereignty.
Permise 2: Psalm 103:19 contains the word sovereignty
Conclusion: You don't know what Psalm 103:19 means
Aside: You are a smart guy. I think you have in your mind some idea of the definition of 'sovereignty'.

[1] Do you believe God’s was for Adam to disobey Him?

Or

[2] Do you believe that God foresaw what Adam would do and planned accordingly, allowing for Adam’s freedom of choice?

Sorry, maybe my weak mind but the first sentence is unclear. I will edit it as I think it is meant. Do you believe God’s [purpose] was for Adam to disobey Him?

Aside: I know we are not suppose to edit people's comments. I took the liberty of putting Numbers [1][2] on your question.

I chose [1] (I think you knew that)
My reasoning: (got to keep it short or wondering will chase me with a broom)

Biblical
Ephesians 1:11 ... says GOD plans everything

Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28, Genesis 50:20 ... I assume your question included Adam's decision to do evil because that is repugnant to us and counter intuitive to our understanding of God's goodness. Thus our tendency to explain it away by putting the decision upon Adam completely ... thus supporting your definition of "free will".
I therefore listed these 3 verses to support the idea that God PLANS for evil events to occur.
Logical
Could the imagination of man picture a situation before any creative act of God was wrought, when God, as it were, had before Him an infinite variety of possible plans or blueprints from which to choose—each and every one of which represented a possible program of divine action as far-reaching and elaborate as the one now being executed, it would be reasonable and honoring to God to conclude that the present plan as ordained and as it is being achieved is, and in the end will prove to be, the best plan and purpose that could have been devised by infinite wisdom, consummated by infinite power, and that which will be supreme satisfaction to infinite love.
To conjecture that God would have a sin depraved man whose father is Satan determine any part of His plan is a tragic elevation of man's station. Libertarian Free Will would have God the ALMIGHTY give 'pis-ant' man the ability to control Him to some extent. Isaiah 40:17 All the nations are as nothing before Him; He regards them as nothingness and emptiness.

Getting hot here in Texas for us. Could you erect a tall fence where you are to stop the warm southerly breeze from coming further north to Tyler?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Try it with me....
No charge for today.

What, you are going to charge me after today? 2

 

[Fastfredy0]

LOL
This is a silly question.
Why would you want to disobey God IN HEAVEN!!!!!!
You're in heaven for goodness sake.
No more sin nature.
No more disobeying God.
Heaven is PERFECT.

Yes, I was sure you would agree that we would obey 100% of the time after death. The point of the question was to point out that, 'assuming we have free will to sin or not', that God must take away our 'valued?' free will for some reason.

I buy a real puppy.
He loves me all on his very own
and follows me all over...
Am I glorified by this?

To the degree that the dog is independent of you and God and loves you ... you are glorified.
Aside: I would say God causes the dog to love you, I assume you would say the dog was given 'libertarian free will' to love you.

The analogy does not fit God though because:
You are creature and therefore mutable.
God is eternal and immutable.

If you were able to add glory to God that would show him to be mutable. He would become what He was not as He would have more glory than He had.
My contention is: God controls you, so when you worship him the cause is Himself. He is therefore praising Himself through you (which makes sense as He is the most praise worthy being). So, when you worship Him you manifest His glory, you do not add to His glory.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Does God lose any amount of His sovereignty
by allowing us to have Free Will?

Or does it make Him more sovereign?0

God is.....
Your asking a question as to weather he will change that?
I would never dare ask him that....

 

[GodsGrace]

God is.....
Your asking a question as to weather he will change that?
I would never dare ask him that....

I'm not asking if God will change.
Please read the O.P. again and give your reply.
Thanks!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Does God lose any amount of His sovereignty
by allowing us to have Free Will?

Or does it make Him more sovereign?0

God is
He's not more or less, he is.....