Is Jesus considered to be God?

[glorydaz]

[quote="Aaron the Tall":4ytv0gis]I don't think it should pose any theological issues to you that Christ is subject to The Father.

As I Cor. 11:3 says, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

This doesn't mean that Christ is a lesser God than the Father any more than a woman is a lesser human than a man. It is simply a matter of roles. If Christ and the Holy Spirit are in a subjected role to the Father - it is not because they are lesser, it is because of the extreme love they have for each other.

Very good points, Arron.

I think that in the end we just have to admit that we dont understand it all because we are finite in our understanding and we simply do not have enough available data to give us the full picture.
Its ok to just admit that this is the case and believe the points that scripture does teach and just accept that for here and for now that we just arent going to have full and complete knowledge of some things about our God

[/quote:4ytv0gis]

Too true...but you've been correct in insisting that Jesus is God.
That cannot and should not ever be denied.

As Watchman Nee said after studying this very subject for many years, "What do I know..I'm just a little man".

 

[Aaron the Tall]

I don't deny that Jesus is God.
There just seems to be some level of submissiveness to the Father - and not just when he was in the flesh.
It says the Father sent the Son. This doesn't mean they weren't both in agreement, but that Jesus lovingly and respectively submitted to the Father's command. It's like if me and my wife both wanted to bless someone with some money, and I told her to "go ahead and give them a check."

Yet it is Jesus who becomes the focus of the glory after his resurrection. He is given the name above all names - and to him every knee shall bow. This too I see as the Father's way of lovingly rewarding Jesus for his sacrifice - and ultimately the whole of God receives the glory.

Pardon me for not looking up verses to spell out these thoughts. I'm not trying to cement a doctrine here - just listing some thoughts.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't deny that Jesus is God.
There just seems to be some level of submissiveness to the Father - and not just when he was in the flesh.
It says the Father sent the Son. This doesn't mean they weren't both in agreement, but that Jesus lovingly and respectively submitted to the Father's command. It's like if me and my wife both wanted to bless someone with some money, and I told her to "go ahead and give them a check."

Yet it is Jesus who becomes the focus of the glory after his resurrection. He is given the name above all names - and to him every knee shall bow. This too I see as the Father's way of lovingly rewarding Jesus for his sacrifice - and ultimately the whole of God receives the glory.

Pardon me for not looking up verses to spell out these thoughts. I'm not trying to cement a doctrine here - just listing some thoughts.

It's a complicated topic, and hard to discuss sometimes.

I just see comparing a couple to God as woefully inadequate.

God cannot be separated from Himself...where a couple can be.
The Father, Son, and Spirit coexist in one being.
Always together...always with one purpose....indwelling each other.
This unique undivided divine essence is fully resident in each of the Three.

 

[Yahoshea]

Follower,
I am sorry that you cannot or will not find a life outside of a computer game like Christian Forums.
I am even more sorry that you would consider something like being compared to an attack dog a good thing.
I ask for fruit and I guess you are it.
I cannot think of a more profound reason to not believe in the Trinity.
Now if you want to threaten me with contacting the moderators, I can only respond by saying they can do as they like. They have no authority over me. There are a million Christians on other boards that are open to reason and want to follow Christ as their example. A million Christians that will not degrade our example in Christ as a secondary dismissive doctrine.

I do wish you well. I pray that Christ will visit you as your brother and prove him to be your example

 

[follower of Christ]

You need to keep your posts directed at the TOPIC here chap.
AFter this I start reporting every post that is directed AT me.

Follower,
I am sorry that you cannot or will not find a life outside of a computer game like Christian Forums.

Huh....and here YOU are

I am even more sorry that you would consider something like being compared to an attack dog a good thing.

Youre more sorry that you cant get past the biblical defense team here, friend. I think we both know that ;)

I ask for fruit and I guess you are it.

You asked for irrelevance.
Truth is the ONLY fruit that is necessary.
Its sad that you dont feel that just having truth is enough.

I cannot think of a more profound reason to not believe in the Trinity.

And that you dont believe is of no consequence to the rest of us who do. It is YOUR soul that is on the line here by your own choice to reject His truth.
EVEN IF accepting the trinity werent required, the fact is that willful rejection of such a CLEAR truth ALWAYS leads to rejection of other truths. When a person willfully turns from the plain truth they darken their own minds to the truth and at some point everything they believe is tainted with error.

Now if you want to threaten me with contacting the moderators, I can only respond by saying they can do as they like. They have no authority over me.

Sure they do.

There are a million Christians on other boards that are open to reason and want to follow Christ as their example. A million Christians that will not degrade our example in Christ as a secondary dismissive doctrine.

By open to reason we can rest assured that you mean 'will listen to anything I say without question'.
As I said, you came to the wrong forum if that is what you expected.

I do wish you well. I pray that Christ will visit you as your brother and prove him to be your example

He is my example.
His example was presenting and accepting the truth of God.
That which I do.

We done here ?

 

[Apostolic Soldier]

I'll admit, I don't know what the Oneness Doctrine entails. If it means Jesus was not God, then it's wrong. Man is made in the image of God. We have a soul, body, and spirit. God has the same only far superior to ours. That each part or "person" has a name does not make one greater or lesser than the other. God is far beyond man's understanding...the problem comes when man determines that God, in any of His (I hate to even use the word "manifestations" but I will, anyway) is not God or is a lesser God is error. God in the flesh (Jesus) had a work to do on earth, then He rose to the throne. His work will be complete when He returns and will be all in all with the Father again. Personally, I think some on this thread are closer than it might seem...terminology being the only separation. Again, I think it gets back to the term "person". God is a spirit...personhood, as we know it, is so inadequate. IMO


Thank the Lord we have so many in agreement that Jesus is God.
I can't tell you how often I hear that being denied.

Brother, The Oneness Doctrine does not at all say that Jesus was not God. It actually says just the opposite. We teach that Jesus was GOD the GOD of the Old Testament (YHWH, Jehovah). History shows us that the Oneness Doctrine and Baptismal Formula was used by Peter, Paul, and the original Apostles. And we teach just what Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily." I've not seen anyone who believes in the Trinity be able to refute that phrase either. This teaches that Jesus was Father, Son, And Holy Ghost all three. There's no distinction in members of the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE ARE ONE"

 

[follower of Christ]

Brother, The Oneness Doctrine does not at all say that Jesus was not God. It actually says just the opposite. We teach that Jesus was GOD the GOD of the Old Testament (YHWH, Jehovah). History shows us that the Oneness Doctrine and Baptismal Formula was used by Peter, Paul, and the original Apostles. And we teach just what Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily." I've not seen anyone who believes in the Trinity be able to refute that phrase either. This teaches that Jesus was Father, Son, And Holy Ghost all three. There's no distinction in members of the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE ARE ONE"

Exactly.
Oneness OVERemphasizes on PART of the data and IGNORES the rest of it ;)

We KNOW they are 'one'.
And we know that somehow within the "one' there are three.
Including the Father who knows the day and hour and the Son who does not.

 

[follower of Christ]

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE ARE ONE"

And by the way, I would take some time to actually study the Johannine Comma there in 1 John.
The Textus Receptus that contains it claims to be from the Greek Majority Texts, but those texts basically do not actually support the Comma (its only found in later texts from my understanding and in very few to begin with).
The Comma seems to have been a copyist note that found its way into the text, Im afraid.
It certainly agrees with the scriptures that God is 'One', so its not a huge deal, but relying on it for doctrine with certain folks will get a chuckle in many cases as it doesnt seem to have been in the original autographs

 

[Apostolic Soldier]

We've already been through the Father knowing something the Son doesn't. I gave you the explanation according to scripture and you wouldn't accept that, that is all I can do. There is plenty that the Spirit of God (aka the Father) knew that the Flesh of Christ didn't. The flesh cries out several times (e.g. in the garden, on the cross). Showing that Christ had both a mortal and divine tendacy. And as Colossians 2:9 shows, Jesus is not just the son. He is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all three.

 

[follower of Christ]

We've already been through the Father knowing something the Son doesn't.

We certainly heard your dodges and excuses, for certain.
Saying something dont make it so, Im afraid.

I gave you the explanation according to scripture and you wouldn't accept that, that is all I can do.

No, you gave me a ridiculous excuse derived directly from your fallacious doctrinal views.

There is plenty that the Spirit of God (aka the Father) knew that the Flesh of Christ didn't.

"Flesh of Christ"
Thats pretty funny
We call Him the Son of God ;)

And as Colossians 2:9 shows, Jesus is not just the son. He is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all three.

And as John 1 shows, He is WITH God and IS God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
(John 1:1-2 EMTV)

He is at the RIGHT HAND of the Father (Act 2:33)

"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses." "Therefore having being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
(Acts 2:32-33 EMTV)

Guess your god is at his own right hand

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="Apostolic Soldier":3mrcdd7f]
Brother, The Oneness Doctrine does not at all say that Jesus was not God. It actually says just the opposite. We teach that Jesus was GOD the GOD of the Old Testament (YHWH, Jehovah). History shows us that the Oneness Doctrine and Baptismal Formula was used by Peter, Paul, and the original Apostles. And we teach just what Colossians 2:9 says "For in him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily." I've not seen anyone who believes in the Trinity be able to refute that phrase either. This teaches that Jesus was Father, Son, And Holy Ghost all three. There's no distinction in members of the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE ARE ONE"

Exactly.
Oneness OVERemphasizes on PART of the data and IGNORES the rest of it ;)

We KNOW they are 'one'.
And we know that somehow within the "one' there are three.
Including the Father who knows the day and hour and the Son who does not.[/quote:3mrcdd7f]

The reason the Son didn't know was because He'd willingly set aside His divine nature while in the flesh. He had no foreknowledge, omnipresence, or any other divine attributes.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, the right hand of God. More than merely a depiction of power or placement.
Just as Jesus is the Word of God,
He's the right hand of God...
He's spirit, but depicted as standing, sitting "on", "in", "by" the right hand...the power of God.
He's also the strong arm of God that will rule....

Isaiah 40:10 - Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Psalm 89:13-14 - Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 48:10 - According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Isaiah 41:10 - Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Luke 22:69 - Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

I'm coming into the Oneness discussion a little late - missing much of what has been said already.

I'm curious - how does the Oneness doctrine see Jesus on earth? Is he like a host body for the omnipresent Spirit of God to dwell - and after His ascension His body is discarded?

I wonder what you would say of John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." Jesus goes on to say that the Holy Spirit will take what is the Father's and disclose it to the disciples.

How would you reconcile this? If there is not distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit, then we have God talking to himself. (Just like he must have been doing in Genesis 1:26) And it's not like it says the Holy Spirit will speak what He has HEARD when He was in the form of the Father, but what He HEARS - a continuous action after He is given to men.

One other note on Jesus not knowing something. As already spoken, Jesus limited himself in the form of a man. Do we have other examples of God limiting Himself? Yes. Hebrews quotes OT sayings of God in 8:12 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." How does that strike you that the all-knowing God can forget something? He does it purposefully for our benefit - the same way Jesus limited Himself for our benefit. (I feel like doing a little shouting. )
God also limits His actions to the prayers of believers - again for our benefit.

Thanks for chatting.

 

[glorydaz]

I wonder what you would say of John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." Jesus goes on to say that the Holy Spirit will take what is the Father's and disclose it to the disciples.

How would you reconcile this? If there is not distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit, then we have God talking to himself. (Just like he must have been doing in Genesis 1:26) And it's not like it says the Holy Spirit will speak what He has HEARD when He was in the form of the Father, but what He HEARS - a continuous action after He is given to men.

I don't believe I fit in any particular doctrine, but Jesus was not just a host body for God. God became fully man, while still remaining fully God, and was resurrected with a glorified body such as we'll have one day. Personally, even that's a mystery to me. However, I believe it by faith.

Not remembering isn't the same as forgetting, so I won't even go there.

I have no problem with the Holy Spirit not speaking on His own initiative because He is one with the Father and the Son the same way they are one with each other. They can do nothing apart...their purpose is the same...they are One God not three. I have to say, I get quite a kick out of us humans trying to figure out God, but it certainly causes us to think outside the box, doesn't it?
I mean, without faith, how could we ever really believe that Jesus was crucified before the world was even made? BTW...I love to chat.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Thanks Glory for your reply.
Could you hit on what you think about the Holy Spirit repeating what the Father tells Him?
I have no problem with a unified purpose and prerogative - but I do have an issue with a God who talks to Himself - unless there is some distinction between "persons."

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks Glory for your reply.
Could you hit on what you think about the Holy Spirit repeating what the Father tells Him?
I have no problem with a unified purpose and prerogative - but I do have an issue with a God who talks to Himself - unless there is some distinction between "persons."

I'll give it my best shot. Since God the Father and the Son also indwell the believer, the Spirit is the entity who interprets for the believer. If you read a little farther in John 14, you'll see the disciples didn't understand it exactly, and until the Spirit was sent none of us could.

Jesus had to leave so the Spirit could indwell the believer. But the Word tells us the Spirit is Jesus and God. They can't be separated because they are One.

Romans 8:26 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

Jesus tells us He will come to us, so He is the Spirit that comes.

John 14:17-18 - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Galatians 4:6 - And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

We're also the temple of God, so God indwells us. The Spirit of God and Christ are spoken of interchangably

1 Corinthians 3:17 - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I hope I've touched on what you're asking....if not, please let me know.
I'm still having trouble with seeing my words at the bottom of the page, so I'd better stop before I lose the whole thing.

 

[follower of Christ]

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[shad]

Edited

We dont know what Jesus would think if we ostracize our brethren as non-believers just because they dont agree with the trinity doctrine.

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[follower of Christ]

Edited

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[follower of Christ]

Edited

We dont know what Jesus would think if we ostracize our brethren as non-believers just because they dont agree with the trinity doctrine.

.

Actually, FoC DOES believe in a triune God...no word games either.
As far as being deemed a nonbeliever, I wouldnt do that to a new Christian. Only after they'd been shown the truth for a bit and flat out rejected it would I start to think they may be a 'make-believer'.