Is Jesus considered to be God?

[seekandlisten]

Interesting little verse...

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

And here I thought GOD was the only One to be worshipped ;)

.

Just to clarify an earlier question you asked as to whether I believe those who believe in the trinity are saved. That is God's decision not mine.

The angels will also worship us in our resurrected state so this passage is not exactly relevant.

 

[follower of Christ]

The angels will also worship us in our resurrected state so this passage is not exactly relevant.

Firstly it IS relevant.
Secondly, do not make such an assertion without presenting scriptural support.
Im ignoring your statement until youve provided support for it from Gods word.

We will JUDGE angels...Id dont recall anything that says angels will worship us which is for God alone

 

[follower of Christ]

Reposting this.
And when someone can support with Gods word that anyone other than God is to be worshiped we'll examine that to see what it is actually saying

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

And here I thought GOD was the only One to be worshipped ;)

 

[seekandlisten]

The angels will also worship us in our resurrected state so this passage is not exactly relevant.

Firstly it IS relevant.
Secondly, do not make such an assertion without presenting scriptural support.
Im ignoring your statement until youve provided support for it from Gods word.

We will JUDGE angels...Id dont recall anything that says angels will worship us which is for God alone

Hebrews 1:14 (New International Version)
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In our resurrected state we will be above the angels. They are to minister to us. I believe it also says somewhere about they will bow before God's creation, which includes us. I don't really see how this is relevant to Jesus being God though.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hebrews 1:14 (New International Version)
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

In our resurrected state we will be above the angels. They are to minister to us. I believe it also says somewhere about they will bow before God's creation, which includes us. I don't really see how this is relevant to Jesus being God though.

Just as I suspected. You have nothing that SAYS we will be WORSHIPED by angels

Heres what your verse says...

Are they not all ministering spirits being sent out to minister for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?
(Hebrews 1:14 EMTV)

G1248
????????
diakonia
dee-ak-on-ee'-ah
From G1249; attendance (as a servant, etc.); figuratively (eleemosynary) aid, (official) service (especially of the Christian teacher, or technically of the diaconate): - (ad-) minister (-ing, -tration, -try), office, relief, service (-ing).

They minister to....AID us...they do not WORSHIP us.

I hope you have something far better than this...


.

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't really see how this is relevant to Jesus being God though.

Uh....MY point WAS relevant.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

JESUS is God and so is worthy of worship.

Nuff said.

 

[seekandlisten]

I don't really see how this is relevant to Jesus being God though.

Uh....MY point WAS relevant.

[quote:23aw8l71]But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

JESUS is God and so is worthy of worship.

Nuff said.

[/quote:23aw8l71]

What are you getting at here. I have said that I don't care what you believe. I get dragged into a debate about my beliefs in every question I ask on this board so sorry i will not get dragged down in what doctrine is right and what religion is right. A religion won't bring you salvation. I don't need anyone to agree with what I believe or a religion to tell me the truth about God. I simply put my faith in God Himself to teach me. Too many people can't respect other beliefs or think that they have it right and if you don't believe it you will burn in hell. I ask questions or present my point in order to learn for myself or hopefully provide someone with a point that they will seek the truth for themselves on. If someone makes a good point to me I take that seed and test it, if it grows it stays with me if it doesn't it falls by the wayside. If I come across as trying to force my beliefs on you then I'm sorry I am only human. The 'one spirit, one body, one forum,' is what attracted me to this site. I don't mind having discussions about each other beliefs but there is always those who feel that if people dont' believe what they believe they won't be saved. I don't believe Jesus is equal to God, I don't believe any religion is any more right then another, I believe our salvation starts with the motives of one's heart, how can one be the servant of all when their religion or beliefs are better then everyone else's? Jesus found favor with a prostitute. If not believing in the trinity or all the church's beliefs will send me to hell well obviously I don't have a place on this site. I thank those that have posted in threads that I have learned from but I must leave this site now as I don't think continuing will benefit me and will bring me back to my point of hating christianity. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Hello all,
I'm studying both sides of this issue, so I find it enlightening to read everybody's take on it.

Perhaps it would be enlightening to look at the other side of the coin. If Jesus is not God, then he is only a man, and we should only see Bible verses that describe him as such.

There are a handful of verses that describe Jesus' role in creation. I think one of the clearest is Hebrews 1:10. "He (God) also says (of Jesus) 'In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

Other verses say that Yaweh alone was the creator of the universe. Why would this verse say Jesus was the creator? Jesus can't be only a man if he was the creator. It seems to be a clear deduction that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[follower of Christ]

What are you getting at here.

One cant READ what I presented and simply see it for what it is ?

I have said that I don't care what you believe.

Just as I dont care what you believe.
the scriptures show what they show...tht is fact.

I get dragged into a debate about my beliefs in every question I ask on this board so sorry i will not get dragged down in what doctrine is right and what religion is right.

huh.
Firstly YOU came HERE, no one sought you out, so you have the choice to continue here or not
Secondly, if you do choose to continue in this 'debate' then by default your beliefs will come into the picture.
If you dont want to participate then wouldnt it be best to NOT participate ?

A religion won't bring you salvation.

A religion wont....THE religion we call 'christianity' does that very thing.

I don't need anyone to agree with what I believe or a religion to tell me the truth about God.

You DO, however, need to agree with GODs word that tells the truth about Him

 

[follower of Christ]

If not believing in the trinity or all the church's beliefs will send me to hell well obviously I don't have a place on this site. I thank those that have posted in threads that I have learned from but I must leave this site now as I don't think continuing will benefit me and will bring me back to my point of hating christianity. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I find it terribly sad that if we refuse to agree with you that you feel it necessary to pack up your marbles and storm out. Is that how we learn the truth, friend ?
Should those who DONT have the truth do the same ?

If you hate Christianity because you dont want to believe what GODS WORD TEACHES whos fault and problem is that ?

Not trying to offend you in the least, but YOU have to decide if you DO or DONT want the WHOLE truth...part of the truth being that Jesus Christ IS the Word and the Word is WITH God and IS God

 

[Yahoshea]

follower
I took the day to accomplish other things and had time to reflect on our discussions. I have come to some conclusions.
I find your approach to this debate forum to be shallow and closed minded. You have not given my post a fair hearing. You have refused to accept any documentation or expert opinion except what agrees with your stand. You have dismissed using the Hebrew or Greek text in favor of your English bible. You have refused to accept any cultural input into the verses.
I addition I find your approach to be antagonistic and demeaning. I have felt you attempt to bait me since I first encountered you. If you had been a oneness supporter you would have been kicked off here by now, but since this is a Trinitarian site the concept of real honest study of the issues is not possible. As soon as someone disagrees with the Trinity the attack dogs like yourself come out of the woodwork.
I have even been willing to accept everything you have said if you can show me that your doctrine produces more or better fruit them mine. You have dismissed the idea of fruit as not important. I am not sure what you believe teaching is for, but it has to be more then two stubborn people trying to mentally out do each other with the Bible. It has to be more then simple intellectual head data to store and vomit out over and over again.
Here to for you have not shown me any reason to believe your doctrine. I will give you one more chance to show me the fruit of your doctrine.
If you refuse there is no point in allowing you to agrivate me with your antagonism.

 

[follower of Christ]

follower
I took the day to accomplish other things and had time to reflect on our discussions. I have come to some conclusions.

Great

I find your approach to this debate forum to be shallow and closed minded.

I can live with that assessment. I take it as a compliment, quite frankly

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Im not here to be 'open minded'.

You have not given my post a fair hearing.

Define 'fair'.
'Fair' would seemingly be defined as meaning 'You speak and I accept'.
Sorry but Im not that sort of believer.
You want me to believe then PROVE yourself.
Not even an angel out of heaven gets passed the door without ID and proof of Insurance, friend.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:8-9 KJV)

As previously stated...if you expect me to believe then PROVE yourself.

 

[follower of Christ]

You have refused to accept any documentation or expert opinion except what agrees with your stand.

Im sorry...you have yet to SHOW any actual expert opinion worthy of note.
You have, however, rejected the CLEAR and ACCEPTED rendering and understanding of John 1, among others, that tells me all I need to know.

You have dismissed using the Hebrew or Greek text in favor of your English bible.

No gent, I have dismissed YOUR REinterpretation of the Greek and Hebrew for your own twists and distortions.

You have refused to accept any cultural input into the verses.

Certainly havent.
The Translators took all of that culture into account in rendering the texts into english.
If you knew the first thing about translation then you would have known that they HAD to do so.

I addition I find your approach to be antagonistic and demeaning.

Ditto.
Youve been quite pushy and arrogant to say the least.
Now, shall we call in a moderator once more since youve devoted an ENTIRE post to my PERSON again ?

Get BACK to the TOPIC here, please.




.

 

[follower of Christ]

I have felt you attempt to bait me since I first encountered you. If you had been a oneness supporter you would have been kicked off here by now, but since this is a Trinitarian site the concept of real honest study of the issues is not possible.

If this were my forum Oneness adherents wouldnt be allowed in the door except to stifle themselves and learn the truth.
The ownership of this forum has decided to at least give you the opportunity to speak your mind. You ought to be thankful for that.

And this isnt exactly the 'bible study area. This particular forum sees a LOT of outright debate. Thats where you present your views and if they are wrong we dissect them for everyone else to see.

As soon as someone disagrees with the Trinity the attack dogs like yourself come out of the woodwork.

Gee, I wonder why
I mean, how dare we defend SOUND doctrine of Gods word and the divinity of our Risen Lord.
"Attack dog". I like it. Think I'll add that to my resume.

I have even been willing to accept everything you have said if you can show me that your doctrine produces more or better fruit them mine.

Define 'fruit', gent.
We can all guess that your definition will certainly go hand in hand with your doctrinal views.

We are interested in TRUTH. And sometimes that truth offends those who prefer to reject it.

You have dismissed the idea of fruit as not important.

I have dismissed your trying to make fruit paramount over truth, that is for certain.

I am not sure what you believe teaching is for, but it has to be more then two stubborn people trying to mentally out do each other with the Bible.

Truth....that is all that matters in the end.
Its worth fighting for....its worth dying for.

It has to be more then simple intellectual head data to store and vomit out over and over again.

Then just accept the truth and move along
Dont expect to preach damnable heresies against our Risen Lord and not be opposed.
This site is run by, as far as I know, those who believe in the Trinity.
Did you actually expect to waltz in and preach your heresies unchallenged ?

Here to for you have not shown me any reason to believe your doctrine.

And ?
I debate MDR all day long, friend, and in MOST cases people will never change their minds out of sheer stubbornness. And some who DO end up seeing the truth are actually so proud and arrogant that they will go hide somewhere so they dont let anyone see that they DID finally have achange of heart.
Ive found only 3 persons in the MDR arena who finally returned to our website and thanked us for our work and said they finally did have the lights come on.
A woman and a man in the USA and a man with a big ministry in India.

So that you havent found anything in what has been provided to you here by myself and many others that has caused you to believe is of no real consequence.
One fantastic thing that has happened here is that this thread has helped to cement the beliefs of those of us who DO believe Gods truth about the Son.
So it is all worth it in the end even if YOU personally hold onto your error.

I will give you one more chance to show me the fruit of your doctrine.

Im sorry...did you mistake my motivations somehow ?
I am not interested in making you believe what I believe.
My ONLY motive is always to expose error to the READERS of the threads I participate in.
I have no desire to change your mind as I know already you have no desire to find the truth. Youve made that VERY clear.

If you refuse there is no point in allowing you to agrivate me with your antagonism.

I have no intention of aggrivating you at all, friend.
If you remain and post in this thread, however, ALL of your posts are subject to the same scrutiny by the rest of us as ours are to by you

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Getting BACK to the topic....


Made a couple additions...



The Trinity
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


1.5

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
(Colossians 2:9 EMTV)


Godhead
G2320
??????
theot?s
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead


G2320
??????
theot?s
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


Is the Son 'God' ?

But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(Hebrews 1:8 MKJV)

G2316
????
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oddly enough the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying...

Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 EMTV)

Is Jesus worthy of worship?

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

Jesus The Creator

Who Created in the beginning ?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God did.

For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son; in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins. who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:13-17 MKJV)

All things were created in Him...all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible..all things were created THROUGH him and for Him.
Who is 'Him' in this passage ?
Sounds like 'His dear Son' to me.


2.0
Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
(Mat 3:16 EMTV)

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
(Luk 3:22 EMTV)

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

 

[glorydaz]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I can say, without a doubt, that Jesus is God. :amen
The Word makes that clear. John 1 should leave no doubt.

I have a bit of a problem with the trinity doctrine...only because it uses the term "persons".
With that term comes the temptation by some to think in human terms and create three separate beings. I've seen this happen before with some making Jesus a lesser God... subservient to the the Father, and keeping Him in that position past His time here on this earth. There is only one God.
God became flesh and dwelt among us. He willingly set aside His divine nature while in the flesh, so He didn't know all the Father knew while He was here. He was tempted as we are and He overcame.

I'll admit, I don't know what the Oneness Doctrine entails. If it means Jesus was not God, then it's wrong. Man is made in the image of God. We have a soul, body, and spirit. God has the same only far superior to ours. That each part or "person" has a name does not make one greater or lesser than the other. God is far beyond man's understanding...the problem comes when man determines that God, in any of His (I hate to even use the word "manifestations" but I will, anyway) is not God or is a lesser God is error. God in the flesh (Jesus) had a work to do on earth, then He rose to the throne. His work will be complete when He returns and will be all in all with the Father again. Personally, I think some on this thread are closer than it might seem...terminology being the only separation. Again, I think it gets back to the term "person". God is a spirit...personhood, as we know it, is so inadequate. IMO


Thank the Lord we have so many in agreement that Jesus is God.
I can't tell you how often I hear that being denied.

 

[jasoncran]

follower
I took the day to accomplish other things and had time to reflect on our discussions. I have come to some conclusions.
I find your approach to this debate forum to be shallow and closed minded. You have not given my post a fair hearing. You have refused to accept any documentation or expert opinion except what agrees with your stand. You have dismissed using the Hebrew or Greek text in favor of your English bible. You have refused to accept any cultural input into the verses.
I addition I find your approach to be antagonistic and demeaning. I have felt you attempt to bait me since I first encountered you. If you had been a oneness supporter you would have been kicked off here by now, but since this is a Trinitarian site the concept of real honest study of the issues is not possible. As soon as someone disagrees with the Trinity the attack dogs like yourself come out of the woodwork.
I have even been willing to accept everything you have said if you can show me that your doctrine produces more or better fruit them mine. You have dismissed the idea of fruit as not important. I am not sure what you believe teaching is for, but it has to be more then two stubborn people trying to mentally out do each other with the Bible. It has to be more then simple intellectual head data to store and vomit out over and over again.
Here to for you have not shown me any reason to believe your doctrine. I will give you one more chance to show me the fruit of your doctrine.
If you refuse there is no point in allowing you to agrivate me with your antagonism.

this is what pm are for and civil discussions. please use them, and all of you be nice. last warning

 

[Aaron the Tall]

I don't think it should pose any theological issues to you that Christ is subject to The Father.

As I Cor. 11:3 says, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

This doesn't mean that Christ is a lesser God than the Father any more than a woman is a lesser human than a man. It is simply a matter of roles. If Christ and the Holy Spirit are in a subjected role to the Father - it is not because they are lesser, it is because of the extreme love they have for each other.

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't think it should pose any theological issues to you that Christ is subject to The Father.

As I Cor. 11:3 says, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

This doesn't mean that Christ is a lesser God than the Father any more than a woman is a lesser human than a man. It is simply a matter of roles. If Christ and the Holy Spirit are in a subjected role to the Father - it is not because they are lesser, it is because of the extreme love they have for each other.

Very good points, Arron.

I think that in the end we just have to admit that we dont understand it all because we are finite in our understanding and we simply do not have enough available data to give us the full picture.
Its ok to just admit that this is the case and believe the points that scripture does teach and just accept that for here and for now that we just arent going to have full and complete knowledge of some things about our God

 

[glorydaz]

I don't think it should pose any theological issues to you that Christ is subject to The Father.

As I Cor. 11:3 says, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

This doesn't mean that Christ is a lesser God than the Father any more than a woman is a lesser human than a man. It is simply a matter of roles. If Christ and the Holy Spirit are in a subjected role to the Father - it is not because they are lesser, it is because of the extreme love they have for each other.

A man and a woman are still two different people.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are just One God.
As the Christ, His role was priest thus "God" was referred to as the head of Christ.

I know that when the Son was in the flesh, He was subject to the Father.
Even His ongoing work until the kingdom is delivered up could be called a subjection.

This verse tells me when Jesus' work was accomplished, He became one with the Father once again...and speedily, too.

Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Jesus subdues all things unto Himself and reconciles all things unto Himself.
Here we have the oneness of God. Jesus' work as a human was finished.

Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 1:20 - And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.