Is Jesus considered to be God?

[follower of Christ]

Reply -
Where is "my" interpretation in the Greek text.

When you added ONE word of english, chap, you gave YOUR interpretation.
Im astounded that you cannot grasp that fact.

In fact I have studied Greek and Hebrew to some degree.

So have we all, friend.
'to some extent' doesnt make you a scholar to be trusted to TRANSLATE ancient greek and Hebrew, Im afraid.

 

[follower of Christ]

But even a dunce can read an interlinear of the original Greek

.
Interlinears and word for word translations do NOT always capture the actual INTENT.

Example;
I have a cool car.
I have a hot wife.

Either of those renderered 'word for word' will NOT give the precise intent in another language.
WE understand then intent who know the slang, but that doesnt mean that another language uses those same words to say what Ive said.

Having a greek dictionary or an interlinear or a word for word bible creates the exact same problem.
Those who KNOW the languages to a GREAT extent are the ONLY ones qualified to RENDER them into another language.

Do you understand this ?
If not then I suggest you take a few years of ANY foreign language....something *I* have done.

 

[follower of Christ]

Many Godly men have also stated that the term Word cannot be literally translated Jesus.

Irrelevant.
Later in the passage the CONTEXT show that this 'Word' IS Jesus Christ. Shall I post it again for you ?

I agree that your vision is very narrow.

And yet you havent been able to prove your position.

so narrow in fact that you will ignore the scriptures in favor of your doctrine.

Again, grab a mirror.

the greek text is the real scripture not your english translation.

Then why are you wasting our time with English, chap ?

I do not claim to be an expert in Hebrew or greek (although I obviously know how to research more then you)

And THERE you go
I know a scholar of Hebrew and Greek when one is speaking. Ive taken a number of years of foreign languages and a true student of ANY language understand rendering and translation issues that you CLEARLY are not understanding here.

A person does not need to be an expert in these languages to know that they carry much more importance the the translations.

Yes, friend, they do.
Anyone can know what a WORD is, but knowing slang and complete phrases is an entirely different animal.
Like comparing a 2nd graders comprehension of English with a college English grad.

You have simple ignored the scriptures I have posted and when I responded to your scriptures you dismiss them.

You have yet to provide a single thing which even remotely supports your views or nullifies the plain rendering of JOhn 1

 

[follower of Christ]

YOU ARE NOT EVEN RESPONDING RATIONALLY.

Arent I ?

YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY DENYING WHAT THE ACTUAL GREEK SCRIPTURES SAY.

No chap, I am rejecting YOUR perversion of the INTENT and CONTEXT of those scriptures.

YOU ARE PROVING THE CHARACTER (or lack thereof) ISSUE I HAVE OFTEN TALKED ABOUT.

This is getting personal now.
Shall I call in a moderator ?

ATTN VIC, RICKW and others....THIS is what Im talking about.

YOU ARE MORE INTERESTED IN WINNING THE DEBATE THEN YOU ARE IN TRUTH OR RESULTS.

Winning isnt relevant.
TRUTH is all that is relevant.

irrelevance snipped
Get back to the topic.

 

[Solo]

We can play games with the greek all we want but the CONTEXT of John 1 proves conclusively that the Word IS GOD and was WITH GOD and that this Word is Jesus Christ.

THE GREEK IS THE CONTEXT. IS YOUR ENGLISH BIBLE MORE CREDIBLE THEN THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES?
YOU HAVE BEEN THROWING AROUND JOHN 1 ALL DAY AND DEFYING ME TO DEBATE THE ISSUE. I POST WHAT THE GREEK REALLY SAYS AND YOU DISMISS IT. YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR DOCTRINE.

You say -
Are you a scholar of Koine Greek, friend ?
We dont need to break out the Strongs here. Many godly men who DO know the underlying languages and texts have rendered the texts for us and have shown that the CONTEXT is that the Word is God and is WITH God and this Word is Jesus Christ.
ALL I see you doing is trying your best to OMIT the CONTEXT of the passage with YOUR REinterpretations.

Reply -
Where is "my" interpretation in the Greek text. In fact I have studied Greek and Hebrew to some degree. But even a dunce can read an interlinear of the original Greek.
Many Godly men have also stated that the term Word cannot be literally translated Jesus.
I agree that your vision is very narrow. so narrow in fact that you will ignore the scriptures in favor of your doctrine. the greek text is the real scripture not your english translation.
I do not claim to be an expert in Hebrew or greek (although I obviously know how to research more then you)
A person does not need to be an expert in these languages to know that they carry much more importance the the translations.
You have simple ignored the scriptures I have posted and when I responded to your scriptures you dismiss them.



YOU ARE NOT EVEN RESPONDING RATIONALLY. YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY DENYING WHAT THE ACTUAL GREEK SCRIPTURES SAY. THE SAME THING YOU ACCUSED ME OF DOING TIME AND AGAIN.
TALK ABOUT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

YOU ARE PROVING THE CHARACTER (or lack thereof) ISSUE I HAVE OFTEN TALKED ABOUT. YOU ARE MORE INTERESTED IN WINNING THE DEBATE THEN YOU ARE IN TRUTH OR RESULTS.
You push philosophical head knowledge (I use the term knowledge very loosely) and claim to have the last "word" (like the pun?) in understanding scripture and yet when confronted with what scripture really says you dismiss it in favor of a doctrine you choose to believe before the discussion even began.
Your doctrine is a fruitless fig tree and your so-called big gun scripture (John 1) is a sham of interpretation.

Not very entertaining.

Your OPINION is in error with the TRUTH of the WORD OF GOD. No one will be able to bring you to understand the TRUTH until you humble yourself and accept the TRUTH. Until then you will wrestle the Scriptures to your own destruction.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up . 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 13 Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever . Amen. 2 Peter 3:10-18

Now we will look at the verse of Scripture that you do not understand. John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1

Dr. B. F. Westcott (Whose Greek text is used in JW KINGDOM INTERLINEAR): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in John 4:24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true Diety of the Word...in the third clause `the Word' is declared to be `God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead."

Dr. Ernest C. Colwell (University of Chicago): "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb;...this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. `My Lord and my God.'" John 20:28

Dr. F. F. Bruce (University of Manchester, England): "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with `God' in the phrase `And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicate construction. `a god' would be totally indefensible."

Dr. Paul L. Kaufman (Portland, OR.): "The Jehovah's Witness people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."

Dr. Charles L. Feinberg (La Mirada CA.): "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek Scholar."

Dr. Harry A. Sturz: (Dr. Sturz is Chairman of the Language Department and Professor of Greek at Biola College) "Therefore, the NWT rendering: "the Word was a god" is not a "literal" but an ungrammatical and tendential translation. A literal translation in English can be nothing other than: "the Word was God."

 

[seekandlisten]

One's personal interpretation of Scripture can debated back and forth all day long. Does it get anywhere? This debate has been going on for 1700 years so I doubt it's going to get solved today. The question that is avoided is what importance does believing that Jesus is God have on how one follows Jesus' example? What is the good fruit this doctrine has brought forth?

Most people that believe Jesus is God also state that one must believe this in order to be saved. Jesus taught that he is the only way so I question when a doctrine gets put between me and Jesus. Is this question not just a debate of matters that it warns about in the bible as having no purpose? Numerous issues arise for me personally with the doctrine of the trinity so I don't find it benificial. While one's interpretation and understanding of the bible are debatable, the trinity is not taught in the bible without bringing one's personal interpretation into play.

Now we arrive at a new question, are we simply questioning Jesus is God or the doctrine put forth with the trinity doctrine. The definition one puts with who or what God is and the level of divinity are factors here that can be debated forever as well. My problem lies in the doctrine of the trinity.

I see where the trinity doctrine has produced bad fruit so I question those who believe in it and think that I must believe in it as well to show me the good fruit this doctrine brings to one's spiritual walk?

 

[Solo]

One's personal interpretation of Scripture can debated back and forth all day long. Does it get anywhere? This debate has been going on for 1700 years so I doubt it's going to get solved today. The question that is avoided is what importance does believing that Jesus is God have on how one follows Jesus' example? What is the good fruit this doctrine has brought forth?

Most people that believe Jesus is God also state that one must believe this in order to be saved. Jesus taught that he is the only way so I question when a doctrine gets put between me and Jesus. Is this question not just a debate of matters that it warns about in the bible as having no purpose? Numerous issues arise for me personally with the doctrine of the trinity so I don't find it benificial. While one's interpretation and understanding of the bible are debatable, the trinity is not taught in the bible without bringing one's personal interpretation into play.

Now we arrive at a new question, are we simply questioning Jesus is God or the doctrine put forth with the trinity doctrine. The definition one puts with who or what God is and the level of divinity are factors here that can be debated forever as well. My problem lies in the doctrine of the trinity.

I see where the trinity doctrine has produced bad fruit so I question those who believe in it and think that I must believe in it as well to show me the good fruit this doctrine brings to one's spiritual walk?

The belief that Jesus is God is a teaching well documented in the Word of God, and no one can know that Jesus IS God until they believe. Your statement, "Most people that believe Jesus is God also state that one must believe this in order to be saved." is not correct. People that believe that Jesus is God state that one MUST BE SAVED IN ORDER TO KNOW THAT JESUS IS GOD. All those who do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh are of the spirit of antichrist.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come ; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 3:1-4

We are to examine ourselves proving to ourselves that we are in the faith, and that Jesus Christ is in us. How? Through the Holy Spirit indwelling us.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves . Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5

One of the tests to examine ourselves is to validate which spirit resides in us; the Spirit of God/Jesus Christ, or the spirit of antichrist. I did not know that Jesus Christ was God until I was born again. I knew that He was the son of God, but I did not know Jesus Christ was God.

The disciple Thomas did not know that Jesus was God either, until He believed after seeing Jesus after His resurrection. At that time Thomas declared, "My Lord and my God."

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut , and stood in the midst, and said , Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed. John 20:26-29

Remember also that there will be some that claim to know Jesus as Lord, but will be told by Jesus that they are workers of iniquity and that He NEVER KNEW them.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:20-23

Jesus KNOWS those that are his.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:25-28

Being born of God, born from above, born of the Spirit, born again gives us the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ to interpret the Truth of God's Word for us; and it is this Spirit that teaches us all things.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets before Jesus was born for the Spirit of Christ testified beforehand of the sufferings that Jesus Christ would experience, and the glory that would follow.

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently , who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what , or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify , when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow . 1 Peter 1:9-11

Born of God believers have the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ teaches that which the natural man cannot receive or know because they are foolishness to him; but the teachings of the Holy Spirit teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual things to the point that those who have the Spirit of Christ have the mind of Christ.

12 Now we have received , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak , not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth ; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned . 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

 

[seekandlisten]

You put forth many different points regarding your beliefs but did not answer my question. I don't disagree with anything God's Word teaches. I have a problem with the trinity doctrine, a man made doctrine not taught in the bible except based on man's interpretation. What is the good fruit put forward by this doctrine? If it only serves to help with one's understanding of Scripture is it not something developed by man in place of the Holy Spirit's guidance?

Edited note: On second thought, although I think the question 'is Jesus God?' and the trinity doctrine are tied in together I don't want to derail this conversation from it's original intent so hopefully i'm not bringing a whole new argument up.

 

[seekandlisten]

Is this question not just one's interpretation and understanding against another's interpretation and understanding? It will really go nowhere. If someone is actually interested in finding answers something might be learned from this conversation but debating the point based on one being right over the other is really a whole new debate in itself not just the point in question.

 

[Solo]

You put forth many different points regarding your beliefs but did not answer my question. I don't disagree with anything God's Word teaches. I have a problem with the trinity doctrine, a man made doctrine not taught in the bible except based on man's interpretation. What is the good fruit put forward by this doctrine? If it only serves to help with one's understanding of Scripture is it not something developed by man in place of the Holy Spirit's guidance?

Edited note: On second thought, although I think the question 'is Jesus God?' and the trinity doctrine are tied in together I don't want to derail this conversation from it's original intent so hopefully i'm not bringing a whole new argument up.

The Scriptures given clearly show the truth of Jesus being God, and the Trinity is Truth.
Your position goes against the Statement of Faith of this forum and can be taken as a hostile act.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

 

[Solo]

Is this question not just one's interpretation and understanding against another's interpretation and understanding? It will really go nowhere. If someone is actually interested in finding answers something might be learned from this conversation but debating the point based on one being right over the other is really a whole new debate in itself not just the point in question.

There is no debate concerning the Statement of Faith of this forum. Your basis of the debate of this thread is faulty according to the Statement of Faith and the Terms of Service of this forum.

 

[Nick]

Enough with the personal attacks please!

5 - Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

7 - Any personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages.

 

[Yahoshea]

But even a dunce can read an interlinear of the original Greek

.
Interlinears and word for word translations do NOT always capture the actual INTENT.

Example;
I have a cool car.
I have a hot wife.

Either of those renderered 'word for word' will NOT give the precise intent in another language.
WE understand then intent who know the slang, but that doesnt mean that another language uses those same words to say what Ive said.

Having a greek dictionary or an interlinear or a word for word bible creates the exact same problem.
Those who KNOW the languages to a GREAT extent are the ONLY ones qualified to RENDER them into another language.

Do you understand this ?
If not then I suggest you take a few years of ANY foreign language....something *I* have done.

OR

rely on someone who has spent years studying the language and culture of the period. I have done that and when I have posted things about the culture you have outright dismissed them.
For example -- the deffinition of "shem" /name in Isa 6 is from Jeff Benner the founder of the Ancient Hebrew research Center. He is a noted author and expert in the Hebrew pictographs and language.

 

[seekandlisten]

You put forth many different points regarding your beliefs but did not answer my question. I don't disagree with anything God's Word teaches. I have a problem with the trinity doctrine, a man made doctrine not taught in the bible except based on man's interpretation. What is the good fruit put forward by this doctrine? If it only serves to help with one's understanding of Scripture is it not something developed by man in place of the Holy Spirit's guidance?

Edited note: On second thought, although I think the question 'is Jesus God?' and the trinity doctrine are tied in together I don't want to derail this conversation from it's original intent so hopefully i'm not bringing a whole new argument up.

The Scriptures given clearly show the truth of Jesus being God, and the Trinity is Truth.
Your position goes against the Statement of Faith of this forum and can be taken as a hostile act.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[quote="Statement of Faith":3dx2i0qb]We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

[/quote:3dx2i0qb]

I don't think the trinity would have been made doctrine if it was clearly put forth in Scripture. Have you even looked at where the trinity doctrine came from and why it was put in place?

I try not to put down one's beliefs or attack the christian faith but I do have issues with certain beliefs. If I have to believe in the trinity to be a part of this site then I will be moving on. I still don't see how the trinity benefits one's understanding of the bible.

 

[follower of Christ]

I see where the trinity doctrine has produced bad fruit so I question those who believe in it and think that I must believe in it as well to show me the good fruit this doctrine brings to one's spiritual walk?

I think we've presented enough here to prove that Jesus is God.
If you think that is 'bad fruit' then that is on you.

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't think the trinity would have been made doctrine if it was clearly put forth in Scripture. Have you even looked at where the trinity doctrine came from and why it was put in place?

That the WORD 'Trinity' didnt show up immediately or isnt in the texts is irrelevant.
The CONCEPT that The FATHER is God, and that the SON is GOD and that the Holy Spirit is GOD has ALWAYS been present in the texts from the time the writers sat down to write.

WE simply gave the concept a name.

 

[Rick W]

The doctrine wasn't made or conceived at the point it was ratified. It had existed long before. Of course there were those who didn't believe it which created division. Sooner or later something had to be done therefore the Nicene Creed.

 

[follower of Christ]

OR

rely on someone who has spent years studying the language and culture of the period.

And that would be the translators as well.
WE're hardly going to toss out our english bibles for anyone here friend.
I hope everyone here can live with that.

I have done that and when I have posted things about the culture you have outright dismissed them.

Sorry but MANY of us here HAVE studied the culture, gent. It goes along with the bible study.
You certainly dont think that YOU are the only person on this forum to have studied.

 

[Yahoshea]

You put forth many different points regarding your beliefs but did not answer my question. I don't disagree with anything God's Word teaches. I have a problem with the trinity doctrine, a man made doctrine not taught in the bible except based on man's interpretation. What is the good fruit put forward by this doctrine? If it only serves to help with one's understanding of Scripture is it not something developed by man in place of the Holy Spirit's guidance?

Edited note: On second thought, although I think the question 'is Jesus God?' and the trinity doctrine are tied in together I don't want to derail this conversation from it's original intent so hopefully i'm not bringing a whole new argument up.

The Scriptures given clearly show the truth of Jesus being God, and the Trinity is Truth.
Your position goes against the Statement of Faith of this forum and can be taken as a hostile act.

There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[quote="Statement of Faith":7dkpy6gx]We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

[quote="Terms of Service":7dkpy6gx]1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

[/quote:7dkpy6gx]

I don't think the trinity would have been made doctrine if it was clearly put forth in Scripture. Have you even looked at where the trinity doctrine came from and why it was put in place?

I try not to put down one's beliefs or attack the christian faith but I do have issues with certain beliefs. If I have to believe in the trinity to be a part of this site then I will be moving on. I still don't see how the trinity benefits one's understanding of the bible.[/quote:7dkpy6gx]

I have been asking for some time for a trinitarian to show me the fruit of their doctrine. I have been virtually dismissed on the matter. My experiance on forums forces me to conclude that many of the people encountered on forums are not as interested in a living viable gospel as they are in philosophical debate on religious topics. they use scripture like a hunting weapon seeking who they can destroy and at the same time offer them no alternative that will produce fruit. It has been my understanding that we were to be fishers of men and not hunters.

It is unfortunate that many have lost sight of the purpose of doctrine/teaching. that purpose is to help us to know how to walk with God. Instead they have turned doctrine in to an exercise of philosophical debate. They proclaim that they have the truth and that it is paramount but cannot produce any evidence that the truth (as they see it) does any good at all. It has become like Christ said salt that has lost it's flavor. I cannot say what these folks do in their personal lives but I hope they are a bit more functional in their walk then their doctrines indicate.

I was heartened in my spirit to see another that cares about the fruits of their doctrine. Whether you stay or leave I wish you well.

 

[follower of Christ]

Is this question not just one's interpretation and understanding against another's interpretation and understanding? It will really go nowhere. If someone is actually interested in finding answers something might be learned from this conversation but debating the point based on one being right over the other is really a whole new debate in itself not just the point in question.

The problem is that you may expect us to sit here and listen and agree while WE are going to do precisely the same.
BOTH sides, that includes yourself and others, are hoping that the other side is going to finally hear what it being said and believe.
And so we BOTH keep presenting our 'evidence' with that hope.

Problem is that few here are blind or illiterate.
MOST of the membership here is pretty studied based on my observations.
When someone comes in bashing the Trinity concept they can expect that the studied membership here WILL respond negatively after it has been going on for 14 pages or so. Its the nature of the game.

We are to be firm in the faith...NOT tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. And therefore because we ARE firm in our understanding of the concept of the trinity we will NOT be tossed about by 'oneness' or 'Jesus only' or any other false doctrine.