- Apr 2, 2003
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I would like to see such evidence of these supposed denominational positions regarding the Trinity. I have a strong feeling that either you have not fully read them or not fully understood them.
Needless to say, there is a lot of writings on the Trinity out there and I have not come across even one that believes if each person is fully God that they would also have to be triune.
It seems to me then that you have not understood this entire conversation. Again, I have not gone beyond anything that was understood by those who wrote the Trinity. Indeed, the very fact that they came up with the doctrine of the Trinity is because of the very biblical passages that I have presented. And many more besides. I have said this already yet you did not address it.
I really don't know what your point is here.
Wow, you certainly don't seem to understand the fact that words have different meanings based on context. That is an elementary principle of biblical interpretation. Another basic principle is that clear passages of Scripture are used to bring understanding to those that are less clear or ambiguous. But you are going about that backwards.
I have given several passages which clearly and unambiguously state that there is only one God. There is no other way to understand those passages.
As for what else elohim and theos could refer to:
Ex 20:3-5, 3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," (ESV)
Deut 4:28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. (ESV)
Deut 28:36 "The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone." (ESV)
Deut 28:64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known."(ESV)
1 Ch 16:25-26, 25 For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and he is to be feared above all gods.
26 For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the Lord made the heavens. (ESV)
So in all the above we see that the gods people serve that are not the one true God, are all worthless idols, often carved from wood and stone. We could talk of the Golden Calf and all sorts of other passages but that should suffice.
So then, when we come to a passage such as 1 Cor 8:4-5, we need to keep the above in mind:
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"—(ESV)
Now, you have in a previous post taken issue with the ESV's insertion of "so-called," but as you can see, your concern is without basis. Even verse 4 makes this clear so it really is a non-issue just with that, but to back it up further is the abundant Scriptural evidence that these "gods" really are "so-called" and are not actual gods at all.
And just to make sure we're clear on Paul's position, Acts 19:23-27:
23 About that time there arose no little disturbance concerning the Way.
24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen.
25 These he gathered together, with the workmen in similar trades, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth.
26 And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods.
27 And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship." (ESV)
Gal 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. (ESV)
Moving on then to what Jesus said in John 10:34:
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? (ESV)
The key question here is: Who did he say this to? He was speaking to "the Jews," as the translations read. Likely the Jewish leaders but it doesn't really matter. What we can be certain about is that he was not speaking to a class of beings that are gods. He was speaking to Jews, nothing more.
Here Jesus is quoting Ps 82:6:
6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;"
But what is important here is the context:
1 A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." (ESV)
I know I could go back and find where you said Satan was a god and therefore immortal, and I will if I have to, but here we can see that these "gods" will die "like men, and fall like any prince."
This is a little ambiguous, so we turn to what is clear to make sense of it. What is clear is that there is only one God, that there are no others, and that the gods of the pagans are worthless idols. We also know that in Jesus' quoting of this passage, in speaking to the Jews, he used it to reference the Jews. In other words, Jesus clearly used Ps 82:6 as though it was speaking of the Jews, of men.
And we see hints of this in Ps 82:7. We know that the judges of Israel were referred to as gods. In that time and culture those who were rulers were thought of as gods. See Ps 45:6, for example. Look up the use of elohim and you will see that it is translated as "judges" in a few places.
So when we come to 2 Cor 4:4 where Paul refers to Satan as "the god of this world," we again refer to that which is clear and that which has been affirmed throughout Scripture. Satan cannot be considered an actual god. This goes against everything else the Bible says. It is quite likely that Paul is referring to the fact that the world sets up Satan as though he is a god, that he is given control of the people of this world by their rejection of Jesus.
And on it goes. So, no, there is no class of beings that are actual gods. There was, is, and ever will be only one God. This is a truth that is affirmed throughout Scripture.
