Is Jesus God Almighty, Everlasting Father?

[Michael A Disciple]

As we continue to explore the Oneness of God I will show that Paul believed Yeshua was the Father.

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK WAS CHRIST. I Cor.10:1-4

Paul said THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. Let us examine from scripture who was the Rock. What did Moses say?

3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the ROCK, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy FATHER that hath bought thee? hath he not MADE THEE, and established thee? Duet.32:3-6

Hear Moses says in no uncertain terms that THE ROCK is THE FATHER of Israel. His very maker! verse 6

Of THE ROCK THAT BEGAT THEE thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God THAT FORMED THEE. Duet.32:18

The ROCK BEGAT ISRAEL signifying he IS THEIR FATHER.

What did David say about the ROCK?

He shall cry unto ME, THOU ART MY FATHER, MY GOD, and the ROCK OF MY SALVATION. Psalms 89:26

David said THE ROCK was both his GOD AND HIS FATHER!

Yeshua no doubt pre existed as THE ROCK OF ISRAEL. The Rock of Israel was the FATHER.
Moses knew no other. David knew no other.

Yeshua is called THE EVERLASTING FATHER in Isaiah 9:6.
If he himself is THE ROCK (FATHER OF ISRAEL) then how does that leave room for anyone else to be THE HEAVENLY FATHER?

Have we not all ONE FATHER? hath not ONE GOD created us?
Malachi 2:10

If the apostle Paul believed Yeshua was THAT ROCK he believed he was THE FATHER. How about you?

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi all,

Dont know about you but my heavenly Father is Jesus! Let me tell you why.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cor:6:17-18

In verse 17 we see it is the Lord who is speaking. The Lord says if we will separate our lives to him he will be our Father. Who is the Lord anyway?

We are told there is only one Lord.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Eph. 4:5

Apostle Paul tells who the Lord is:

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

The Lord said to Paul he was Jesus. Later Paul says there is only one Lord. This is the the Lord who says if we come and give our lives to him he will be our Father! Note in 2 Cor. 6:18 this same one says he is not JUST the Lord but the Lord Almighty! So Jesus is my Father and he is the Lord Almighty.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 Johm 2:28-29

Who are these verses talking about? Obviously the one who is COMING! How many believe Jesus is coming? Well if he is the one who is coming then everyone that does righteousness is BORN OF HIM! If we are BORN OF HIM that means he is our Father!

The verses that follow:

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:1-2

In the preceeding verse we saw we are BORN OF JESUS meaning he is our Father. Now John says the world knows us not because it knew HIM not. Friends when was it the world did not know our Father?

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

Clearly the world did not know the Father when he came into the world!

When we receive the Holy Spirit Jesus becomes our Father.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

Who was this spirit of truth? The disciples knew him because he was dwelling with them. Remember Jesus told them I am the way, the TRUTH and the life and no one came to the Father but by him. John 14:6

Now he says the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is going to come and dwell IN THEM. Was it not Jesus who was dwelling with the disciples as the TRUTH? Does he not say I will not leave you comfortless I WILL COME TO YOU?

So the spirit of truth who came to the disciples was the Spirit of Jesus! Christ IN YOU the hope of glory.

The word "comfortless" in the Greek language is actually ORPHANS in English. This is the key. When Jesus comes into our lives as the Holy Spirit we are no longer ORPHANS. He becomes our Father. No wonder apostle John said we are BORN OF HIM!

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:17

Who is this Father of lights? James said we are begotten of him. Did not John say we are begotten (born) of Jesus? Absolutley! 1 John 2:28-29

Who are the LIGHTS that Jesus is the Father of?

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46

First off Jesus says he is THE LIGHT.

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. John 12:35-36

Jesus says HE IS THE LIGHT and his followers are CHILDREN OF LIGHT.

Therefore Jesus is indeed the FATHER OF LIGHTS spoken of by James.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Eph. 5:8

We are light IN THE LORD. The Lord is Jesus. He is our Father we are his children.

No wonder Isaiah the prophet said:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace Isaiah 9:6

As we see from this study we have very good reason to call Jesus EVERLASTING FATHER! And every time we do it we fulfill this prophecy.

 

[(Omega)]

:smt009 Mike...........I humbly bow out of this discussion since you have not bothered to take into consideration any of my refutations and I really don't have time for this. You nearly bypassed all my rebuttals with quoted portions of scripture which only prove the deity of Christ or does not disprove the distinction of the Father from the Son, furthermore you have taken them completely out of context to suit your personal opinion.

EXAMPLE:

You may be aware that the word AND (kai) in the following verse means EVEN just as much as it means AND.

So that it can be read like this:

6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

There you have a revelation.

Thats not a revelation, thats conforming scriptures to your own liking. Prime example how you failed to understand my previous post which is taken from [Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:03 pm] PAGE 5:

The above passage uses the word "and" (kai) to show distinction between persons, although Modalists argue that the word "and" can mean "even", according to sharps rule #5, when multiple personal pronouns exist in a clause conjoined by the word "kai", each noun must refer to a distinct person, especially when the first noun lacks the article "the" (ho) as seen in the above verse.

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 8:6, the grammatical rules apply to that verse also. Anyone with an honest, humble and sincere heart will admit that there is a clear distinction in persons in that verse. If you submit to the truth, then the truth will be submitted to you. If you submit to personal opinion and false teachers, than false teachings conjured up from personal opinion will be submitted to you. As with any doctrinal seed planted within the person (Good or Bad), it will take root from within, and needs to be plucked out early especially if bad, the results can lead to eternal ramifications and I say this out of true love and concern for you Mike, please consider this.

Take Care and God Bless!

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Omega,

Mike...........I humbly bow out of this discussion since you have not bothered to take into consideration any of my refutations and I really don't have time for this. You nearly bypassed all my rebuttals with quoted portions of scripture which only prove the deity of Christ or does not disprove the distinction of the Father from the Son, furthermore you have taken them completely out of context to suit your personal opinion.

Me:

I might question how seriously you have considered the things I have said.

I believe in the deity of Christ. I also believe there is a distinction between Father and Son.

Jesus said he was in Heaven at the same time he was on Earth. I have have stressed that he exists in two distinct modes of being similtaneously.

What you want me to confess is that there is more than one God. I can think of no more worse error than to do so.

Gods plan is that Jesus be seen as BOTH YWHW AND ALSO THE MESSIAH.

36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36

The mystery of the faith cannot be discerned when your reference point (foundation) does not start with the fact that GOD IS ONE.

I said early in the discussion I dont think Trins are trying to promote polytheism. Its just their doctrine forces them into it.

If God would speak to God there must be more than one God.

If God prays to God there must be more than one God.

If these kind of scriptures are not understood as a relationship between God and MAN then you cannot escape the fact God is not ONE but at least 2.

Jesus quoted,

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is ONE.

Trins and Arians spend much time in discussions like these trying to wear us down with false proofs that YHWH is NOT one. It just dont work.

Dont close yourself off from hearing something new. Thats how we learn. You may well discover this truth is not "new" after all but is the mystery of the faith spoken by the Apostle.

16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim. 3:16

Read it as is. God was manifest...

Not God THE SON was manifest.

Your eyes will be opened.

 

[Klee shay]

Observe:

17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev. 1:17-18

Jesus said these words. He said he was the First and the Last.

What does that mean? Was he not referring to this?

6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

YHWH said he is the First and he is the Last. YHWH said beside him there is NO GOD.

He is the first and last what? Did Jesus define it by his own lips? You then take the prophet Isaiah's testimony as meaning what the Lord meant? Is Jesus not capable enough to speak for himself? If he did not mention in Revelations what the first and last clearly meant; then it was not meant to be defined at all to mankind in this life.

There is no God but one God...and he chose to express his nature in 3 identities. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This was God's will and yet it is possible to challenge it with scripture. Let me demonstrate where this can go wrong in interpretation.

And careful heed here:

7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

By your definition the scriptures are lying for there are not three that bear record in heaven - but ONE! The only way that, "and these three are one" can be applied to, "For there are three that bear record in heaven" without bearing false witness, is if they are 3 separate identities united in one Spirit - God's. Otherwise the whole scripture is a lie.

These very words were inspired by God. It was his will that they be written in like manner to confound those who would tempt his very nature. I cannot pretend to know the mysteries of God, I can only read his testimonies. If the Father bore witness of the Son and the Son bore witness of the Father, then to be considered two legitimate witnesses to the nature of God - they had to be separate identities. If they were one "being" then their testimonies were a lie and bore false witness of God to mankind.

As far as I know the only divine liar throughout all creation (before the world) was the enemy. He would have a vested interest in making God out to be a liar. How do you do that to God's own children though? Well he's done it before. You don't change the truth, you just change the definitions of the truth and get them to believe another version of the same story.

He can't change the fact that Jesus' life and death were a victory over his cause, but he can change the nature of that message by changing the definitions Jesus used himself and that which are written all throughtout the fortelling of his coming.

A Father can give up his own life to save his Son - but what is that if he is God? Now the Son of God who gives up his life...well that goes to show how much his father meant to him. By this example is how we are meant to come to God. We are not the Father of the Father, we are the Sons of the Father. By calling Jesus the Father, we ignore the nature of the sacrifice by which we are saved. It is by the sacrifice of the Son that we too become Sons of God.

One spirit, one God - revealed according to his perfect will.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Klee shay said:

He is the first and last what? Did Jesus define it by his own lips? You then take the prophet Isaiah's testimony as meaning what the Lord meant? Is Jesus not capable enough to speak for himself? If he did not mention in Revelations what the first and last clearly meant; then it was not meant to be defined at all to mankind in this life.

Me:

It seems clear enough what he meant. Although it may be true that he is not revealing it to you.

You said:

There is no God but one God...and he chose to express his nature in 3 identities.

Me:

Yes three expressions of his nature. But not 3 separate co equal, co eternal beings.

You:

By calling Jesus the Father, we ignore the nature of the sacrifice by which we are saved.

Me:

By calling Jesus the ETERNAL FATHER we are fulfilling the Prophet Isaiahs prophetic word.

6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

God said thousands of years ago we would call the Messiah ETERNAL FATHER. I am doing it right now! It feels great.

If you cannot call him what was prophesied I dont know how to reach you.

 

[Klee shay]

It seems clear enough what he meant. Although it may be true that he is not revealing it to you.

Boasting is rarely pretty, but if it makes you feel better you may elevate yourself. I'll remain humble so that I may hear God when he speaks.

Yes three expressions of his nature. But not 3 separate co equal, co eternal beings.

If not then why not. Why would God lie when he called his Son his Son when he was really God? Isn't that blatantly lying to all mankind? If what you say is true, then why was God lying in the scriptures and Jesus as well?

By calling Jesus the ETERNAL FATHER we are fulfilling the Prophet Isaiahs prophetic word.

Is Isaiah your God or is Jesus your light to guide you to him? Jesus clearly stated who he was - do you believe his testimony or God's testimony for that matter? Why use the prophecy of Isaiah to re-write the testimony of that which you call God?

The thing with a prophecy is - you never know when it's going to come into being. That is what got the Jews to crucify Jesus in the first place. They did not believe that Jesus was the prophesy come true. Yet God testified it and the Holy Spirit testified it before them very clearly. Now where is the testimony of God to say that in the world after his death, Jesus is called Eternal Father? He is not called Eternal Father...not by God, not by the angels and not by the Holy Spirit.

That prophecy Isaiah made could still yet be fulfilled for the Son of God has not returned. But you remain blind to the truth both God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have testified to this day - that He is the Son of God, resurrected to the right hand side of God. If he is to be called Eternal Father, it has not been yet. This has been God's will.

If you cannot call him what was prophesied I dont know how to reach you.

Then I know the spirit is working, for it is not you to reach me but the Spirit of God which you possess to draw me closer. If it is your boasting you wish to convert me with; I will not see the hand of God touch your words. If it is the Lord's glory you wish to share however; then humility will allow his resounding voice to echo to the rest of his flock as clear as a bell.

Be aware of what it is you are trying to share, as I will endeavour to do so as well. For this walk of ours is a challenge and when we take our eyes off the light, we fall all the easier. As it is written, none are righteous therefore I am included in that number. If there is anything of benefit to be had by my words - they are those which come from the Spirit. The rest is to be rejected for that is my will and not to be trusted. Yes, we all come with our own agenda if we're humble enough to admit it.

Therefore only listen to the Spirit of God - there you will find infinite truths.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Klee shay,


If I have been boasting of myself somewhere in this thread shame on me.

You said:

Therefore only listen to the Spirit of God - there you will find infinite truths.

Me:

Agreed!

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Wow!

I am pleased at the poll numbers on this topic. 3 times more votes that Jesus is God the Eternal Father than for Trinitarianism.

 

[John the Baptist]

The bottom line of these posts are in need of Romans 4:17's last part of the verses understanding. The Son of God was a 'Plan' to be brought forth.
God/man/Son.

There is one God in three separate personalities. God, God Christ, God Holy Spirit,. (Notice Holy Ghost also who is Spirit & omnipresent) They had [a plan from ETERNITY!] Long before Lucifer was even created, or Adam;s creation, & surely in the Eternal [PLAN] of the Godhead, (see Proverbs 8:23 on) one would become the Son of the Father to be. And one purpose for this was that they all three are one in Unity of [complete freedom of worship].

And the creation that started in heaven & ends on earth, which fell from grace, all needed this plan caried out for the unfallen universe to understand that the creation of God had no flaw from their end. Christ's life on earth proved this! Yes, they could say that angels & mankind did not need to fall, but one would always wonder, huh? See Isaiah 42:21 in the K.J. And because that Obadiah 1:16 finds these all destroyed by God's strange act in the end those who maturely disobey, (James 1:15) it all needed proven for all of eternity that God is Love.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi John,

You said:

There is one God in three separate personalities. God, God Christ, God Holy Spirit,. (Notice Holy Ghost also who is Spirit & omnipresent)

Me:

Do you think the personalities are co equal, co eternal, and each one God apart from the other? In other words classic Trinitarianism.

You said:

They had [a plan from ETERNITY!]

Me:

Problem is God is never "they" always HIM!

The plan came from God HIMSELF.

11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph. 1:11

Note the SINGULAR words HIM and HIS in the verse. Nothing about THEY.

 

[thessalonian]

Wow!

I am pleased at the poll numbers on this topic. 3 times more votes that Jesus is God the Eternal Father than for Trinitarianism.

That may be true for this board but Trinitarians outnumber non-trinitarians in Christianity 10:1. That's a fact Jack.

 

[John the Baptist]

There is nothing created that Christ was not involved in [as God]. (other world's'!) The Gospel is Everlasting as with the Covenant. Everlasting in this context means 'Immortal' with no beginning or ending! Pro.. talks about the 'future'! Christ playing as a lad. What was brought 'forth' was the 'plan of salvation'. The GodHead had for/ordained that Christ would become the Son. The PLAN CAME FORTH when it was pre/ordained to be brought forth.

In heaven itself the rebellion started. Lucifer was the covering cherub over the [MERCY SEAT.] (Everlasting Gospel) Under the Mercy Seat was the Ark of God, where in were the Everlasting Covenant. (10 Commandments) The GodHead was not in eternity taken by surprise. They knew that the PLAN OF SALVATION would be required to be BROUGHT FORTH!

Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was begotten??

In Hebrews. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"

So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??

---John

 

[Richard]

I've always thought of God being the father, and putting himself into a human form, but still being in Heaven at the same time.

So, Jesus is not God, but he is made from God.

So this basically fights for both sides :P

 

[Vic C.]

Wow!

I am pleased at the poll numbers on this topic. 3 times more votes that Jesus is God the Eternal Father than for Trinitarianism.

I suppose that's not boasting either.

Don't forget, the poll wasn't originally worded the way it is now, it was changed after Solo posted he misworded the second question. That may account for two or three votes going the wrong way. The poll results are now inaccurate because of this.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

John said:


There is nothing created that Christ was not involved in [as God].

Me:

Agreed.

John:

Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was begotten??

Me:

Actually the only places where the SON is seen as begotten are at his earthly birth.

21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matt. 1:21-23

4: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law, Gal. 4:4

John:

In Hebrews. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

Me:

The Son who made the Worlds pre existed as THE WORD. If we take into account the first chapter of John.

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

If the Word WAS GOD then the Word was not ANOTHER GOD.

The Word that was WITH GOD was the express image of HIS PERSON. Not another person but the Theophany by which he manifested himself to the Universe before Bethlehem.

So the Son created the Worlds. But he did it while still being the Word. Much like one could say they visited the birthplace of President Bush. When he was born there he was not President Bush but he LATER became President. So one would be attaching the Presidents acquired roles to him projecting them back through his existence.

Otherwise if he as the Son HELPED YHWH in creation what would we do with this:

24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24

Here YHWH states he ALONE was creator. That he made the Earth BY HIMSELF.

So if the Son is said to be the INSTRUMENT of creation he could not have existed as a different person than YHWH. He must be one and the same with him.

Is a mans WORD another person from himself? Or part of his own being? That WORD that made all things and was with God and was God later became flesh the Son.

The writer of Hebrews uses this same line of thinking later on in this same book of Hebrews speaking of Levi and Abraham.

9: And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10: For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.


In the same way that Levi payed tithes in Abraham before he existed The Son is the creator of all things. He did it while he was still the Word of his Father!

So John my question to you is if the SON was born before creation how could he be co eternal with his Father? Evidently the Father was BEFORE the Son so does that not eliminate the co eternal definition of the Trinity?

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Awesome Oneness Truth In Revelation Chapter One!

Some of the most powerful proof of Christs deity is in this chapter.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is TO COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Comment:

Notice the greeting here in verses 4 and 5. From the Father first then the Son. But notice the Father is the one who was and is and IS TO COME. So the Spirit signifies here that the Father is coming but in verse 5 the Son is not.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Comment:

Verse 7 the one who is coming is the one who WAS PIERCED!
Verse 4 has established it is the Father who is TO COME. I thought Jesus is the one who was pierced?

33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear PIERCED his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. John 19:33-34

Yet what about THIS prophecy?

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have PIERCED, and they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him as one that is in bitterness for his ONLY SON. Zech. 12:8-10


God is the one speaking in verse 10. Quite unusual when he says "They will look on ME who they pierced" and in the same sentence says "and they will mourn for HIM as one mourns for his ONLY SON."

As if he were another person at the SAME TIME.

Now verse 8 (back in Rev. 1) says the ALMIGHTY is the one to come. He is Alpha and Omega. He is THE LORD.

Well verse 4 said the Father is the one coming. So the Alpha Omega is the Father. He is THE LORD.

How many Lords did Paul say there are?

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 8:6

One God and one Lord.

And John says the Alpha Omega is the Almighty and the LORD.

The Lord is Jesus according to Paul. The Alpha Omega is the Father who is TO COME. The Lord (Jesus) is the Alpha Omega.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia.

Comment:

The Spirit is yet further piecing this divine puzzle together. Verse 11 reveals that the same one who is Alpha Omega is the First and the Last!

The Father is the one to COME in verse 4.

The one to COME is Alpha Omega in verse 8.

Therefore the Alpha Omega is the Father.

The Alpha Omega (Father) is also the First and Last verse 11.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Comment:

Now John sees one who he believes is Jesus.

Jesus says "I am the First and the Last". Verse 17

If he is the First and the Last he is the Alpha Omega. If he is the Alpha Omega he is the ONE to come. Verse 8.

If he is the ONE to come he is THE FATHER of verse 4.

Jesus is the one who was dead and came alive in verse 18. The Son who washed us in his blood. Verse 5.

So between verse 17-18 we can say with much assurance Jesus is BOTH the First and Last (Father) and ALSO the Son who died and rose.

Written in a veiled way? Maybe thats why the book is also referred to as THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST!

If Jesus is both Father and Son it is vindicated that he is the Messiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The real Christ. For your consideration, mike

 

[Vic C.]

Who is "us" in the following verses?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Maybe we can discuss Elohiym, echad and the Godhead too.

 

[Free]

MAD,

From a quick glance at a couple of your posts, all you seem to have done is provide evidence for monotheism and the deity of Christ, neither of which goes against trinitarianism.

 

[John the Baptist]

**

Who is Jesus really?

EDITED: This poll was initially written without a thorough review of my thoughts, and the answers are not viable to the question asked; therefore,
I will explain my intent.

Some individuals do not believe in the diety of Jesus Christ, and they label him only as the Son of God. Jesus is the Word of God and existed eternally as God prior to his human birth. Prior to the birth of Jesus Christ to Mary there was no Son of God, there was the Word of God, and was there a Father God prior to the Son of God; No. In Genesis we see that God created the heavens and the earth and we notice in scripture that Jesus created all things as the Word; therefore God is the creator, he is one God in three separate persons, the Word, God, and the Spirit.

In Isaiah 9:6 we see that Jesus is called The mighty God and The everlasting Father. The name everlasting Father is prophesied prior to the only begotten Son of God being born, even though the Word of God is eternal.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Some that understand God as one God in three persons, as I do, have a difficult time understanding the oneness of God in three persons. My stand is that the Bible speaks of all three persons of the Godhead as equal identity of oneness, and Jesus is called everlasting Father and The mighty God in Isaiah, and he is the Word prior to becoming the Son.

The answer of the poll that states "No, Jesus is only the Son of God the Father. He is not God almighty." is misleading in that Jesus is God almighty whether someone believes he is the Father God or not.

The No answer should have been "No, Jesus is God Almighty, but not the Everlasting Father.

***
Hi, John here, good post. And it does not matter how it was in error at first, it is corrected now. And it did not change the Truth. Christ is still one of three in deity, huh?

But, it is a serious doctrine! See 2 John 1:9-11, check 2 John 1:7!

In Acts 7:37-38 Steven was filled with the Holy Ghost and declared while under Inspiration that "This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to Him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."

In the above verses one must admit that Christ as the Son of God was not manifest by human birth yet.