Is Jesus God Almighty, Everlasting Father?

[wavy]

Hey man, I'm sorry for using the word "duh", your alright with me! Secondly I am never afraid to admit I am wrong If someone can correct me, this is How I came to acquire any or all scriptural knowledge in the first place.

I'm sorry too. I just get into defense mode too often. I need to pray about that and repent about that.

How do you squeeze the word or title "angels" in Genesis 18:3?

You do not. I was saying that these men could have been angels. Gabriel is called a "man" and yet we know he is an angel, although the actual word "angel" appears nowhere in the text where he is called "man".

Where is any reference of angels in that passage? It's a straight forward question which you sidestep everytime.

Nowhere. The point is that these men (imo, two of the three) were angels and one was YHWH. That may be wrong, but I don't see the 3 as YHWH in terms of representation of a trinity. If YHWH was all 3 men here instead of just one, then I believe there is an alternative explanation as to why other than seeing "YHWH" the seeing "three" and then tying this in to the trinity.

The definition of "Elohim" makes references to angels, I think you missed my point wavy.

Not the definition. What word is put there in substitution of "elohim" based on context.

The LXX Septuagint is the FIRST (Oldest) translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Another Language, If I am not mistaken.

If that is what you meant, it is understood. My fault. But you didn't add the last part at first, so I misunderstood it.

As far as the LXX being the oldest translated from the Hebrew? I'll have to check.

 

[(Omega)]

I'm sorry too. I just get into defense mode too often. I need to pray about that and repent about that.

Me too!

You do not. I was saying that these men could have been angels. Gabriel is called a "man" and yet we know he is an angel, although the actual word "angel" appears nowhere in the text where he is called "man".

I never thought of it that way, interesting indeed.

Nowhere. The point is that these men (imo, two of the three) were angels and one was YHWH. That may be wrong, but I don't see the 3 as YHWH in terms of representation of a trinity. If YHWH was all 3 men here instead of just one, then I believe there is an alternative explanation as to why other than seeing "YHWH" the seeing "three" and then tying this in to the trinity.

I'm not stating that Genesis 18:3 proves without a shadow of a doubt that the trinity is spoken in that verse, but IMO could be a possibilty, which is why I said that we should take a look at the scriptures as a whole.

Not the definition. What word is put there in substitution of "elohim" based on context.

In all honesty, I'm not exactly sure if it refers to angels or not, since you introduced to me that "men" can refer to angels.

The LXX Septuagint is the FIRST (Oldest) translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Another Language, If I am not mistaken.

If that is what you meant, it is understood. My fault. But you didn't add the last part at first, so I misunderstood it.

As far as the LXX being the oldest translated from the Hebrew? I'll have to check.

I'm not too knowledgable when it comes to translations so I'll have to do some more research too. I have ministerial duties to attend and sacrificed some time to respond to your posts, but I'm sure that it wasn't in vain since I know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28) I will get back to you when I have the time, I appreciate you bearing with me.

God Bless!

 

[wavy]

Peace and love, brother.

And when you get back, if you're looking for that man/Gabriel passages, here it is:

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Matthew 10:19-20...But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Mark 13:11...But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

If the Father and Holy Ghost are separate and distinct persons which inspired writer is correct? Matthew tells us the Spirit of the Father will speak, but Mark says it will be the Holy Ghost.

Luke 21:14-15...Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

And now to add fuel to the fire Luke records the same discourse by saying it is Yeshua who will do the speaking! Is it not very likely they were all three inspired to write what they wrote because THESE THREE ARE ONE?

Romans 6:4...Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of THE FATHER, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

1 Peter 3:18...For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT.

As concerning the resurrection we see the apostle Paul states Christ was raised from the dead by the Father. Then Peter says he was raised (or quickened) by the Holy Ghost. Did it take two separate and distinct persons who are both God to raise one man from the dead?

John 2:18-21...Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in thee days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

Now we have the ASTOUNDING statement by Yeshua that it is HE HIMSELF who will resurrect HIMSELF! Saints of God, It would not take three divine persons to raise ONE MAN from the dead! No doubt the Holy Spirit wants us to see that these three are one and the SAME SPIRIT.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6...Now there are diversities of gifts, but the SAME SPIRIT, And there are differences of administrations, but the SAME LORD. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the SAME GOD which worketh all in all.

So who is working the gifts in the believer? Verse 4 says the SAME SPIRIT. Verse 5 says the SAME LORD. Verse 6 says the SAME GOD.

1 Corinthians 12:11...But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT,dividing to every man severally as HE WILL.

So evidently the same Lord, the same Spirit and same God is a HE. He is one and the SELFSAME SPIRIT. God never says he is three, but always that he is ONE!

Ephesians 4:4-6...There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The apostle Paul knew only one Lord. Who was he?

Acts 9:5...And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I AM JESUS whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

The ONLY LORD Paul knew was Jesus.

The apostle Paul knew only one Spirit. Who was he?

2 Corinthians 3:16-17...Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

So to Paul Jesus was the only Lord. And now the same man writing under inspiration says, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT! Jesus himself is ONE SPIRIT Paul knew.

Paul knew only one who was both God and Father. Who was he?

Isaiah 9:6...For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now we see the all powerful truth that it is THE SON (Jesus) who is both THE MIGHTY GOD - THE EVERLASTING FATHER! So if Jesus is both God and Father, then he is the ONLY GOD AND FATHER. Because the apostle Paul said there is ONLY ONE who is both God and Father.

Matthew 28:19...Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This command of Christ is cited as a basis for Trinitarian doctrine. Was Christ commanding the apostles to preach three separate, co-eternal, co-equal members of the Godhead? Notice he says to baptize in THE NAME. Singular. Let us see how the apostles obeyed this command.

Acts 2:38...Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:16...For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48...And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5...When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The apostles in every case in the book of Acts baptized converts into the name of Jesus Christ (Yeshua).

Why did they do this? They had spent some three years walking with him and hearing his teachings before he was crucified. They walked with him fourty days after his resurrection. THEY KNEW THE TRUTH!

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three manifestations of the ONE BEING WHO IS GOD.

There is one name that now brings salvation to the world.

Acts4:12...Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Klee Shay said:

At no point in the life of Christ did he call himself God. Why is that?

Me:

Observe:

17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev. 1:17-18

Jesus said these words. He said he was the First and the Last.

What does that mean? Was he not referring to this?

6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

YHWH said he is the First and he is the Last. YHWH said beside him there is NO GOD.

If Yeshua is the First and the Last he MUST BE YHWH.

Trinitarianism says Jesus is the 2ND.

But Jesus says he is THE FIRST.

Trinitarians say the Holy Spirit is the (LAST) 3RD person.

But Jesus says HE IS THE LAST.

He is YHWH the First and the Last. Beside him there is no God.

That does not imply he is to powerless to also at the same time be the Son.

See Isaiah 9:6.

And careful heed here:

7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

 

[wavy]

What does that mean? Was he not referring to this?

6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

YHWH said he is the First and he is the Last. YHWH said beside him there is NO GOD.

If Yeshua is the First and the Last he MUST BE YHWH.

He is the first and last. Isaiah 44:6 reads "YHWH King of Israel AND His Redeemer". The tool which YHWH uses to save Israel is also called YHWH (of hosts). And when you see, "I even I", it is a dual reference to the plurality in echad: Father and Son.

Therefore they both make YHWH-Elohim-Echad.

He is YHWH the First and the Last. Beside him there is no God.

There isn't. But he also has an elohim, and that is Father YHWH. Yahweh also said he is the only Savior (yasha):

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no Saviour.

(We also see the duality here), And yet, check this:

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours (yasha) shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be YHWH.

Yet here MEN are referred to as Saviors. These things mean (one God, one Saviour) that there is no salvation or true might that comes without YHWH.

YHWH is also Melech HaMelechim (King of Kings). But 3 times, if I remember correctly, is this title given to men...by YHWH.

So everything the Father is can also apply to his very own Son.

See Isaiah 9:6.

I believe people have fairly shown what Isaiah 9:6 is talking about with no good refutation.

And careful heed here:

7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

Latter, false, trinitarian emendation. This passage is simple not original.

The Father is Yahshua's God. Beforeand even after his resurrection and ascension:

Isaiah 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with YHWH, and my work with my God.

Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John 20:17 Y'shua saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I mean, there's tons more that prove Yahshua is under the Father and not him himself, or his equal. He proceeds from the Father as his Word and was named his Son and made into flesh.

He is NOT the Father.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Omega said:

The word for ONE is "heis" is used to describe a NUMERICAL ONE, however the word one which is a numerical one is used in numerous passages in Scripture to describe not a numerical one but ONE IN UNITY.

Me:

So again a post confusing the NUMERICAL ONENESS OF GOD. True Biblical doctrine will never come to light until this vitally important truth comes to light.

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:10

6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

8: Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:8

24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24


5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45: 5-6

18: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18

21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:21-22

My friends, Israel knew nothing about "members" of the Godhead. All they knew was YHWH was their God and there was NONE ELSE.

YHWH was HE, I, and HIM. Not we, they, and them!

Yeshua claimed to be YHWH. I am not ashamed of the numerical Oneness of YHWH. He always says he is ONE.

That is the basic of Oneness doctrine.

There is only One God. Jesus is God.

There is nothing that can disprove those facts from scripture.

When Jesus prayed that we be one as he and the Father were one he is praying AS A MAN to God. Not God to God. Else that would be a ready admission that there are 2 gods.

Men seek intimacy and closeness with God. That is a true doctrine. It should always be taught.

God cannot seek oneness with another person who is God because such a thing does not exist.

Are there co equals in the Godhead?

5: To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? Isaiah 45:5

YHWH knows no equals!

If Yeshua is YHWH he is the only one who is.

 

[Free]

And Jesus and the Holy Spirit are YHWH, so I fail to see the problem. None of those verses disprove the Trinity.

 

[(Omega)]

And Jesus and the Holy Spirit are YHWH, so I fail to see the problem. None of those verses disprove the Trinity.

I was thinking the exactly the same thing! 8-)

My friends, Israel knew nothing about "members" of the Godhead. All they knew was YHWH was their God and there was NONE ELSE.

YHWH was HE, I, and HIM. Not we, they, and them!

Yeshua claimed to be YHWH. I am not ashamed of the numerical Oneness of YHWH. He always says he is ONE.

That is the basic of Oneness doctrine.

There is only One God. Jesus is God.

There is nothing that can disprove those facts from scripture.

When Jesus prayed that we be one as he and the Father were one he is praying AS A MAN to God. Not God to God. Else that would be a ready admission that there are 2 gods.

Men seek intimacy and closeness with God. That is a true doctrine. It should always be taught.

God cannot seek oneness with another person who is God because such a thing does not exist.

Are there co equals in the Godhead?

5: To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? Isaiah 45:5

YHWH knows no equals!

If Yeshua is YHWH he is the only one who is.

If Jesus is the Father, then ONLY the Father resides within you, this would exclude the Son indwelling you and this is not what the scriptures teach. In other words, if you believe that Jesus is the Father, you may not have God in you, and if God does not abide within you, you more than likely have the spirit of ERROR. Proof?

John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

2 John 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

You have posted nothing but scriptures which does not prove that Christ is the Father, but merely point to a "ONE" God. There are numerous passages which clearly show distinction between the Son and the Father. Example:

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

That verse CLEARLY says that there is ONE GOD, and that ONE GOD is the Father, then it proceeds to state that there is ONE LORD and that ONE LORD is Jesus Christ the Son, do you see where I am going with this? IF there is ONE LORD who is the Son, that would exclude the Father from being called LORD. However we clearly find that the Father is also referred to as LORD. "Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"

Paul commonly referred to the Father as theos (God) and typically termed the Son as "kurios" (Lord). We also find that Paul also clearly referred to Christ as "ho theos" (the God) in [2 Thess. 1:12; Rom. 9:5] As a result, we find that when Paul would mention the Father and Jesus in the same passage, he would make the distinction between them by using the titles "theos" and "kurios", more than likely these were both descriptive of Deity according to Paul. When you examine and to a research, you will find that the terms "theos" and "kurios" are equal descriptions of God in a religious Jewish context . You will notice this when you consider that the term used to translate the Tetragrammaton "YHWH or Yahweh" in Septuagint is the word "kurios". Found throughout the NT are innumerable passage which explicitly makes the distinction between the Son and the Father as in "PERSONS" and not simply in expression as you put it. (John 1:1; 18; 17:5; Phil. 2:6). Furthermore, the word "with" (pros) is applied to persons and is an indication of intimacy or fellowship, and at all times refers to distinction. An example can be found in this passage:We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5: "pros ton kurion" (with the Lord) In John 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 5:8, the word "with" pros is and expression of intimacy and relationship that is shared with the Lord, not a mere expression of the being. It is obvious that you are NOT going to give in to the truth that the Father is NOT the Son even if we wrangle with this to the Second Coming of Christ. I have more important duties to attend to, so if you wish to continually abide in a false doctrine than do as you wish, the choice is yours MAD (Michael A Disciple)...later dude! :

God Bless!

 

[(Omega)]

Peace and love, brother.

And when you get back, if you're looking for that man/Gabriel passages, here it is:

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation

Thanks bro and much love!

God Bless!

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi Omega,

Let us reason the deity of Jesus from another angle. That is the doctrine of one Lord as presented in the New Testament.

We see this in particularly two places.

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor.8:6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:5-6

The Greek word for Lord in both passages is "kurios" meaning according to Youngs Concordance sir, or master.

The Greek word for God in both passages is "Theos" meaning according to Youngs concordance God,a god, object of worship.

In these two portions of scripture many people see a very clear cut seperation between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. They say it proves that Jesus is not in another realm of existence God himself.

Friends would you agree with me as I agree with the apostle Paul there is only ONE God the father? And would you agree with me as I agree with the apostle Paul there is only ONE Lord (Jesus) to us the believer? Good.

So for those who reject the docrine of "I and my Father are one" try this on for size!

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Get the point?

The Lord (Jesus)is OUR GOD!

We have seen there is ONLY ONE LORD. We know that is Jesus.

We know there is ONLY ONE GOD and that is the Father.

Yet now we see in Rev. 19:1 that the LORD is OUR GOD!

If Jesus (the Lord)is our God then he is God the Father for we see in the same 2 verses 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6 that the One God is the Father.

This is another confirmation that when our Lord said "I and my Father are one" he actually was speaking as a "a man making himself God"

I do believe there is a distinction of being within the Christ. He is all that scripture shows him to be.

Unto us a child is born unto us a Son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Using this prophecy correctly, as the basis of the doctrine of Christ it becomes clear that Jesus is the Son of God yet at the same time God and Father. Is the God who created the millions of galaxies in the universe to small to accomplish this?

17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name Jer. 32:17-18

 

[(Omega)]

Hi Mike!

Although I am a bit reluctant in responding to your post, I will respond to you A.S.A.P, I have to finish my Christmas shopping! :smt111 :x-mas:

God Bless!

 

[(Omega)]

Me again friend!

I am going to give it one more shot with you, although I'm pretty sure that I know the outcome. :wink:

Let us reason the deity of Jesus from another angle. That is the doctrine of one Lord as presented in the New Testament.

We see this in particularly two places.

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor.8:6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:5-6

I think your missing the concept of the word "one" in the context of that passage and in other portions of Scriptures. Your only giving more credence to the Doctrine of the triune God, according to Ephesians 4:5-6, there is only "one" (heis) Lord and who is Jesus Christ, and according to 1 Corinthians there is only One God "The Father". Notice how it clearly does not say One God Christ the Father, it says there is one God "The Father"AND (kai) one Lord "Jesus Christ" making a clear distinction between the two. Lets examine Eph 4:4-6 exegetically, that passage is elaborating on the "unity" of the Spirit, the oneness among believers refers to having one body-the one body of Christ, the Christian Church, NOTE: that the one body of Christ is not literally "ONE BODY" as in ONE PERSON; one spirit-the same Holy Spirit who imparts the same spiritual life to all believers. Note the comparison to the "one spirit" to the parallel found in 1 Corinthians 6:17 where it reads "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." Can you honestly tell me that that a believer who is "United" with the Lord is literally "ONE SPIRIT"? Of course not! Continuing, there is one hope-all Christians share the same future certainty and are headed toward the same heavenly destination; there is one Lord-all submit to the same divine ruler who is Jesus; one faith-all believers have placed the same trust in Christ for their salvation; one baptism-Holy Spirit baptism at the time of salvation; and finally we have One God and Father-all believers in Christ have the same God and heavenly Father, this is the Father of Christ.

The Greek word for God in both passages is "Theos" meaning according to Youngs concordance God,a god, object of worship.

In these two portions of scripture many people see a very clear cut seperation between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. They say it proves that Jesus is not in another realm of existence God himself.

Friends would you agree with me as I agree with the apostle Paul there is only ONE God the father? And would you agree with me as I agree with the apostle Paul there is only ONE Lord (Jesus) to us the believer? Good.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what your getting at here. Theos can also represent a false God (satan) as in 2 Corinthians 4:4, however that wasn't my point. You didn't take into consideration that the titles "theos" and "kurios" are used by Paul to make a CLEAR distinction between Christ and the Father, else it could have easily be read as "One God the Father Jesus Christ". Theos and Kurios in context are both descriptions of Deity Especially in religious Jewish context, Paul being a Jew was full aware of this which is the reason why it was written in that context .

So for those who reject the docrine of "I and my Father are one" try this on for size!

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Get the point?

The Lord (Jesus)is OUR GOD!

We have seen there is ONLY ONE LORD. We know that is Jesus.

We know there is ONLY ONE GOD and that is the Father.

Yet now we see in Rev. 19:1 that the LORD is OUR GOD!

If Jesus (the Lord)is our God then he is God the Father for we see in the same 2 verses 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6 that the One God is the Father.

This is another confirmation that when our Lord said "I and my Father are one" he actually was speaking as a "a man making himself God"

I do believe there is a distinction of being within the Christ. He is all that scripture shows him to be.

I've tried it on for size and it doesn't seem to fit. ;-) Revelation 19 in no way proves that Jesus is the Father, your putting pieces of a scriptural jigsaw puzzle in the wrong places. 1 Corinthians 8:6 makes a clear distinction between One Lord and One Father, in crystal clear context it shows that Christ is not the Father, you are simply ignoring the context of that verse. Revelation 19 reads "Lord our God", and? Both the Father and the Son is called Lord, and they are "distinct" as I have already proven. Furthermore we read also in Revelation 5:7 that the "Lamb" takes the book out of the right hand oh Him that sat on the throne "God the Father".

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. (Revelation 5:6,7)

If Jesus is the "Father", then Jesus took the book out of His own hand on the Throne while He wasn't even on the throne, sound right to you?

Now what did Jesus mean when He said that "I and my Father are one"?

Do you notice that Jesus doesn't actually say that He "is" the Father, but rather that He and His Father "are" one. If you take time to diligently study the scriptures we find in the New Testament that Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" more than 200 times and He is never even once called the "Father." The Father" is referred to as someone else who is clearly distinct from Jesus by Jesus. Furthemore it is found that Jesus referred to "the Father" or "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself over 179 times, you will not once find any scriptures where Jesus refer to "my Son" as distinct from himself! Even furthermore in the Gospel of John alone, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," over 40 times and He never once referred to himself as the Father who had sent the Son. Furthermore, Jesus did not say that He "is" the Father, but rather that He and the Father "are" one (ego kai ho pater hen esmen) which is rendered literally as "I and the Father one we are" The verb esmen (are) is plural in the Greek, for this reason, Jesus didn’t say, "I and the Father am (eimi) one," but rather He said that, "I and the Father are (esmen)one." Now BACK to the word "ONE" When translated the word "one" (hen) is in the neuter gender. In the greek the neuter (hen) is indicating a UNITY of essence and not an absolute identity. Think of it this way, if Jesus wanted to communicate that He Himself was the Father, then He would certainly would have used the masculine (heis) not one person, but of one essence or nature.

God Bless!

 

[wavy]

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In light of all this, I find it hard to believe that Yahshua is talking to himself here, or that he requires believers to be one, that is, one person but different manifestations of one another...

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Hey Omega,

You said:

I think your missing the concept of the word "one" in the context of that passage and in other portions of Scriptures. Your only giving more credence to the Doctrine of the triune God, according to Ephesians 4:5-6, there is only "one" (heis) Lord and who is Jesus Christ, and according to 1 Corinthians there is only One God "The Father".

Me:

Yes thats what I am saying. To the New Testament believer there is ONLY one Lord. That is Jesus.

To the New Testament believer there is ONLY one God. The Father.

Is this not what the passage is saying?

So if Jesus is the only Lord and the Father is the only God what is it you dont see about Rev. 19:1?

Aleluia, salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord (Jesus) our God (and Father).

You may be aware that the word AND (kai) in the following verse means EVEN just as much as it means AND.

So that it can be read like this:

6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

There you have a revelation.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Omega said:

If you take time to diligently study the scriptures we find in the New Testament that Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" more than 200 times and He is never even once called the "Father."

Me:

But a DEEPER study shows that he did reveal his identity to those that he chose to.

7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:7-9

Did Jesus encourage Phillip in seeking a separate knowledge of the Father apart from HIMSELF? No! He pointed Phil to HIMSELF! Many today ONLY THINK they have what Phillip requested.

Omega said:

Even furthermore in the Gospel of John alone, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," over 40 times and He never once referred to himself as the Father who had sent the Son.

Me:

Jesus said to those who have ears to hear:

44: Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45: And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. John 12:44-45

If you believe in Jesus who are you believing in? Answer-Him who sent me.

If you see Jesus who who are you seeing? Answer-He that sent him.

Omega:

Furthermore, Jesus did not say that He "is" the Father, but rather that He and the Father "are" one (ego kai ho pater hen esmen) which is rendered literally as "I and the Father one we are"

Me:

Do you ever wonder why the Jews tried to stone him when he said that? Think about it.

Could it be because the Messiah they expected was BOTH the Son and the Eternal Father?

6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Notice how the Messiah would be BOTH. So the Son can say I and my Father are one.

But Trinitarians cannot. Why? Because they believe in several different Fathers. Not just one.

How many Fathers in the Old Testament?

Have we not all ONE FATHER? Hath not ONE GOD created us?

When Trins say "God" they have to stop and think which one?

When I think of God I think of only one. When the Jews thought of God they never dreamed there were three separate co eternal, co equal beings who were all three YHWH.

Omega said:



If Jesus is the Father, then ONLY the Father resides within you, this would exclude the Son indwelling you and this is not what the scriptures teach. In other words, if you believe that Jesus is the Father, you may not have God in you, and if God does not abide within you, you more than likely have the spirit of ERROR. Proof?

Quote:
John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Me:

You always seem to omit that I believe Jesus is both God and man. When he says WE will make our abode thats what he means. Not 2 separate Gods. One God and one man. That makes a "we". It does not indicate "members" of the Godhead.

Be patient Omega. There is still much to say.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Wavy said:

There isn't. But he also has an elohim, and that is Father YHWH. Yahweh also said he is the only Savior (yasha):

Me:

If Jesus is the First and the Last there is no one BEFORE HIM.

Let YHWH define what First and Last means:

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

If Jesus as God has a Father he would be his son. Right? So his Father would be BEFORE him or he would not BE his Father.

Jesus said there was no God BEFORE HIM. That means AS GOD he was the FIRST.

Jesus said there was no God AFTER HIM. So that makes HIM THE LAST who would BE God.

First and Last!

The thing that makes Jesus God is because he is YHWH. YHWH is ONE.

Hear O Israel YHWH our God is ONE YHWH: Duet. 6:4

Jesus in his HUMANITY does have a Father even YHWH.

As God he cannot have a Father or there would be two gods.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Lets us look at the birth of Jesus.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt 1:18-21

Notice who the Father of Jesus is.....child of the HOLY SPIRIT. verse 18

Also verse 20 says the child is of the HOLY SPIRIT!

Jesus the Christ was Fathered by the Holy Spirit. So when he speaks of his Father this is who he means:

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

The Father Jesus speaks of is his own Father. He is the SPIRIT OF GOD.

So the one Jesus obeyed, honored, and prayed to was straightly called The Holy Spirit.

Now who did apostle Paul believe was Lord to the believer?


3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Paul believed Jesus was the Lord. He says in two scriptures there is one Lord. Ephesians 4:5 and 1 Cor. 8:6

So far we see that the Spirit of God is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the Lord.

IN THIS CHAPTER IS THE PROOF

2 Corinthians 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Verse 3 mentions the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD.
Verse 6 mentions the Spirit.
Verse 8 mentions the same Spirit.

Now look closely and carefully at verse 17.

Now the Lord (Jesus) is THAT SPIRIT!

Oh friends do you see it? The father of Jesus Christ our Lord is the Holy Spirit according to Matt chapter 1:18-21
Now here Paul says the Lord HIMSELF IS THAT SPIRIT.

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!

There is the vindication that Jesus was indeed claiming to be one with his Father. Vindicated because the apostle Paul himself believed it was true and taught it to the Church.

THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

We find he mentioned the same truth to the Roman church.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom. 8:9

Paul refers to the spirit of Christ as the SPIRIT OF GOD.
If the spirit of Christ IS the spirit of God then AGAIN it is confirmed.

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

But friends we should not really be surprised if we would believe the prophecy of Isaiah as to who Christ would be.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah says the Son will be called the Father. Jesus said:

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

The scriptures given by Paul in this study support both Isaiah 9:6 and John 10:30.

 

[wavy]

Firstly, Michael, address things within the context I said them in. Secondly, keep the scriptures in context themselves.

Let YHWH define what First and Last means:

10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

If Jesus as God has a Father he would be his son. Right? So his Father would be BEFORE him or he would not BE his Father.

You also skipped the context of this verse. There are TWO witnesses (according to Torah) that testify that the Father, who is speaking here, is the God here.

One is his Servant (Yahshua), the other is Israel. What he's saying here is that he, as the Father is above all. Yahshua, as the Son, was not formed. He was within the Father (Isaiah 49:2).

Jesus in his HUMANITY does have a Father even YHWH.

Then he'd have to have an earthly father, which he does not. Flesh does have a "father" that is YHWH. Only spiritually can YHWH have children among humans. This statement is not backed by scripture.

As God he cannot have a Father or there would be two gods.

And this is just a direct contradiction of scripture. Please see Psalm 45:7.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

Quote:
As God he cannot have a Father or there would be two gods.

Wavy said:

And this is just a direct contradiction of scripture. Please see Psalm 45:7.

Me:

1: My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2: Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3: Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4: And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5: Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7: Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Psalms 45:1-7

Of course we see this again in Hebrews as:

But unto the Son he saith thy throne O God is forever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Two ways this could be looked at.

1. God was speaking to someone else who was God. If this be true why not simply admit there are 2 gods?

2. Jesus as a MAN had to grow in grace and knowledge of God. God had to teach him things by revelation. Was the child who was born at Bethlehem born knowing that he himself was the God of Heaven? When he came forth from Mary's womb did he immediately know that in the beginning HE HAD LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH? And that the Heavens were the work of his hands?

More likely his Father was revealing to Jesus who he was in his EXISTENCE IN HEAVEN.

13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Do you think the Son of man on Earth knew everything the Father in Heaven knew?

Or was he LIMITED in his knowledge in his earthly walk? Did he have to learn the things of God by revelation?


Remember Jesus was living in Heaven at the same time he was here on Earth!