IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[Rollo Tamasi]

According to....Scripture. Doesn't that hold more weight than according to.....what I think?

Well, yes, but I don't talk on a forum to other people just to be referred to an according to on every subject matter.
My point being is that they have discussed this so much, that now they are trying to prove points by quoting others.
It just never ends.
I have more according tos than you do, so I win.
That's what it has come to.

 

[WIP]

Well, yes, but I don't talk on a forum to other people just to be referred to an according to on every subject matter.
My point being is that they have discussed this so much, that now they are trying to prove points by quoting others.
It just never ends.
I have more according tos than you do, so I win.
That's what it has come to.

I hear you. However, there are more learned people in the world than me. I think that's a pretty realistic assertion. There are times when quoting from those scholars can be useful for adding some validity to what one is saying. Would you rather take my word for it or the word of a much more learned scholar or maybe even an apostle?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I hear you. However, there are more learned people in the world than me. I think that's a pretty realistic assertion. There are times when quoting from those scholars can be useful. Would you rather take my word for it or the word of a learned scholar or maybe even an apostle?

Well obviously they don't agree with what the other person is saying so they have to go to other people who they can quote.
But truthfully, I could learn from a guy on the street and never know his name.
How would that fair on the forum?

 

[jasonc]

Man has a deceitful heart.
What does that have to do with free will?
An unbeliever can do no good?
I'm thinking of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates...they gave away, and are giving away, millions to improve the world.

Free will is all over the O.T. and the N.T.

What does the following mean to YOU?:

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus states that the Jewish people (most of them) were UNWILLING to come to Him and believe.
If God predetermined everything....did He forget to tell His Son?
Why was Jesus expecting the Jews to come to Him of their own will?
He said the were UNWILLING.

Please explain.

bill gates is into population control .he is very much using his money to that end ,supports abortion,etc

and what man camms charity saves no one ,a man lost bit fed is still damned .

he dies and sees he'll if he doesn't repent .

plenty of "good" and heroic vets have died and if lost ,in he'll come judgement .
I have pondered why I should support vets or not and give time in my church often .its not a sin to care for them but

a gay vet couple needs food ,you can't easily tell them the gospel in veteran groups .

yet they visit a church that will aid them.they will hear it .they aren't forced to come but the opportunity is there and shoukd be used

 

[WIP]

Well obviously they don't agree with what the other person is saying so they have to go to other people who they can quote.
But truthfully, I could learn from a guy on the street and never know his name.
How would that fair on the forum?

I don't know. We do that all time. I have learned things from people here that I don't know. I don't know your real name and yet I have learned from you and I trust the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to me through you.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not going to talk about FREE WILL with you until you define it clearly.

that verse is used by the Arminist as choice but has no definition ,it simply says you are able to reject him .

you aren't free from Him slaying you for adultery ,idolatry and those sins of the amorites .that's not free will .oh you,can reject me ,but well its death if you do .

I'm ok with a just God doing this as he created men and defined the rules .he won't allow evil to reign unchecked .

in the reformed this was a choice given to isreal because it was offered by God at sanai.

the amorites ,hittites etc had no choice .die if they fought ,or serve isreal if in peace ,bit couldn't be in fellowship with God .he did allow gentiles to circumize themselves and Isreal was to teach the nations ,he was not offering this land to the cannanites or anyone else and to dwell with them .

some seem to think isreal had no choice per Calvin . God didn't visit the amorites ,edom to offer a covenant or redeem them from any oppressor .

can't reject and offer that wasn't given .

 

[Fastfredy0]

I worked in electrical design for 20+ years and acronyms were used so much they became second nature. I never really cared for them because when used there's an implied assumption that everyone your speaking to knows what you're talking about.

I worked at Sprint for a while. They had a acronym file. For a long time I was lost in the world of acronyms. Eventually, I got up to speed. Horrible for a while.

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=reminder]
Need to pull the reigns in as the OP is not about Calvinism vs Arminianism vs Christianity vs Catholicism vs Libertarian free-will. The OP is not about good vs evil. The OP is about free-will choice and what is already written in the scriptures. Let's stick with the scriptures and not what man has written as their belief according to their doctrines.

We need to get back to the topic of this thread as it's beginning to become a battlefield of views on what's right vs what's wrong according to mans theories and teachings.

Unity in the Body of Christ
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[/ACMP]

 

[JLB]

I'm not going to talk about FREE WILL with you until you define it clearly.

Free will — The God given ability to choose:

• Good verses evil
• Right verses wrong
• Eternal life verses eternal death

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

We either believe Jesus Christ is just and renders to each one according to what he has chosen to do, whether god or evil or we believe Jesus Christ forces some against their will to do evil so He can unjustly sentence them to hell.







JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Free will — The God given ability to choose:

That definition is vague to the point of uselessness IMO. It fits both Augustine's definition and that of "libertarian free will" which are contradictory. (Aside: there are other definition) It does not address why one chooses or who/what influences determine the choice or what influences would nullify 'free will'.
How much force/influence can God use before my decision is not free? Can He have no influence? Complete influence? When does influence become force and nullify the definition of 'free will'?

Example: Man puts a gun to my head and asks me to kiss his feet or he will shot me. I would freely chose to kiss his feet though someone else might say I was not free to choose depending on their definition of 'free will'. The same man yesterday asked me to kiss his feet and I freely chose to say "no thanks"; but why, because I don't like sandals and does that influence nullify my free choice. Tomorrow Christ comes by and I weep and go to the ground and kiss his feet; was I free to do so or did something influence my decision to the degree that my decision was not free. According to "libertarian free will" I could kiss or not kiss a person's feet in each situation. And if that same situation occurs in the future I could do the opposite.

This is the beauty of "free will". It's meaning is so vague, that it fits nicely into everyone's conversation. You can talk about free will and mean "X" and I can listen and agree because my understanding of what he said means "Y". Ones understanding, even in ones own mind, is vague. It can mean "X" in one circumstance or "X +/-" in another situation or the same situation at another time.

Maybe that's why people refuse to define 'free will' explicitly, because it is central to their theology and an explicit definition might wither if exposed to the light of day.

My definition: We always chose what we desire most at the time. This is empirically proven. It allows for my decision to be influenced. This is an integral part of compatibilism and is the best of both worlds. God can be sovereign in everything (not just most things) by controlling my desire; yet, I get what ever I want/chose. This ensures that everything worketh for good to those that love them because God is in complete control instead of sinful me. Thank you God for controlling all things to the benefit of the ones you love. Sweet harmony.

 

[jasonc]

That definition is vague to the point of uselessness IMO. It fits both Augustine's definition and that of "libertarian free will" which are contradictory. (Aside: there are other definition) It does not address why one chooses or who/what influences determine the choice or what influences would nullify 'free will'.
How much force/influence can God use before my decision is not free? Can He have no influence? Complete influence? When does influence become force and nullify the definition of 'free will'?

Example: Man puts a gun to my head and asks me to kiss his feet or he will shot me. I would freely chose to kiss his feet though someone else might say I was not free to choose depending on their definition of 'free will'. The same man yesterday asked me to kiss his feet and I freely chose to say "no thanks"; but why, because I don't like sandals and does that influence nullify my free choice. Tomorrow Christ comes by and I weep and go to the ground and kiss his feet; was I free to do so or did something influence my decision to the degree that my decision was not free. According to "libertarian free will" I could kiss or not kiss a person's feet in each situation. And if that same situation occurs in the future I could do the opposite.

This is the beauty of "free will". It's meaning is so vague, that it fits nicely into everyone's conversation. You can talk about free will and mean "X" and I can listen and agree because my understanding of what he said means "Y". Ones understanding, even in ones own mind, is vague. It can mean "X" in one circumstance or "X +/-" in another situation or the same situation at another time.

Maybe that's why people refuse to define 'free will' explicitly, because it is central to their theology and an explicit definition might wither if exposed to the light of day.

My definition: We always chose what we desire most at the time. This is empirically proven. It allows for my decision to be influenced. This is an integral part of compatibilism and is the best of both worlds. God can be sovereign in everything (not just most things) by controlling my desire; yet, I get what ever I want/chose. This ensures that everything worketh for good to those that love them because God is in complete control instead of sinful me. Thank you God for controlling all things to the benefit of the ones you love. Sweet harmony.

no one is born and raised without any inclinations .

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

1st Peter 4:18, "If it is with "DIFFICULTY" that the righteous is saved, what will become of the GODLESS man and the SINNER."

Think about why it's difficult !!!

Dialogue, please!

 

[jasonc]

That definition is vague to the point of uselessness IMO. It fits both Augustine's definition and that of "libertarian free will" which are contradictory. (Aside: there are other definition) It does not address why one chooses or who/what influences determine the choice or what influences would nullify 'free will'.
How much force/influence can God use before my decision is not free? Can He have no influence? Complete influence? When does influence become force and nullify the definition of 'free will'?

Example: Man puts a gun to my head and asks me to kiss his feet or he will shot me. I would freely chose to kiss his feet though someone else might say I was not free to choose depending on their definition of 'free will'. The same man yesterday asked me to kiss his feet and I freely chose to say "no thanks"; but why, because I don't like sandals and does that influence nullify my free choice. Tomorrow Christ comes by and I weep and go to the ground and kiss his feet; was I free to do so or did something influence my decision to the degree that my decision was not free. According to "libertarian free will" I could kiss or not kiss a person's feet in each situation. And if that same situation occurs in the future I could do the opposite.

This is the beauty of "free will". It's meaning is so vague, that it fits nicely into everyone's conversation. You can talk about free will and mean "X" and I can listen and agree because my understanding of what he said means "Y". Ones understanding, even in ones own mind, is vague. It can mean "X" in one circumstance or "X +/-" in another situation or the same situation at another time.

Maybe that's why people refuse to define 'free will' explicitly, because it is central to their theology and an explicit definition might wither if exposed to the light of day.

My definition: We always chose what we desire most at the time. This is empirically proven. It allows for my decision to be influenced. This is an integral part of compatibilism and is the best of both worlds. God can be sovereign in everything (not just most things) by controlling my desire; yet, I get what ever I want/chose. This ensures that everything worketh for good to those that love them because God is in complete control instead of sinful me. Thank you God for controlling all things to the benefit of the ones you love. Sweet harmony.

Grace Is Resistible... Until It’s Not

Learn your doctrine from texts. It stands up better that way, and feeds the soul. For example, learn irresistible grace from texts. In this way you will see it does not mean grace cannot be resisted; it means that when…

www.desiringgod.org

todays devotion.

many proponents of
the perseverance of the saints will say things like this,if you backslided and recant your decision to repent you weren't truly saved and also will say God let me go astray and allowed me to go in to he'll to break me of my will.
yet teach that the 4 others points are wrong.

 

[Fastfredy0]

1st Peter 4:18, "if it is with "DIFFICULTY" that the righteous is saved, what will become of the GODLESS man and the SINNER."

Think about it !!!

Romans 3:10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Since none are righteous (Romans 3:10) then one concludes none would be saved ... unless God causes them (John 1:12-13; Phil. 1:29) to become righteous through faith that justifies (Galatians 2:16) and the imputation of Christ's righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21) to those that are in Christ.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I hear you. However, there are more learned people in the world than me. I think that's a pretty realistic assertion. There are times when quoting from those scholars can be useful for adding some validity to what one is saying. Would you rather take my word for it or the word of a much more learned scholar or maybe even an apostle?

Famous quotes;

 

[GodsGrace]

It clearly means that God has mandated through His word and by His Spirit that mankind must choose to obey God or disobey God; it’s our choice.


God desires that we would choose obedience and life rather than disobedience and death.


No amount of man’s commentaries can explain away this eternal truth.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9






JLB

Amen to that!

I don't like how someone states he/she doesn't know what free will is.
Any child knows what it is.

God gives us a choice.
A choice denotes free will.

Some man-made definitions (to suit the theology) have had to invent a different meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not going to talk about FREE WILL with you until you define it clearly.

What a cop out !!
How many times would you like me to define it?
Why,,,YOU have defined it for yourself -- on my behalf.

You understand it,,,
you just don't care to engage because the verses are
too difficult - they show that man has free will.

And you said you'd tackle up to 3 verses in one post.

It's not anybody's fault if you're following the teachings of a MAN
(who had to come up with a different explanation for free will)
instead of the teachings of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace Is Resistible... Until It’s Not

Learn your doctrine from texts. It stands up better that way, and feeds the soul. For example, learn irresistible grace from texts. In this way you will see it does not mean grace cannot be resisted; it means that when…

www.desiringgod.org

todays devotion.

many proponents of
the perseverance of the saints will say things like this,if you backslided and recant your decision to repent you weren't truly saved and also will say God let me go astray and allowed me to go in to he'll to break me of my will.
yet teach that the 4 others points are wrong.

Calvinists don't know if they're saved or not.
They have to persevere till the end, and since THEY didn't choose
§God....He could let them go at any time He wanted to.

Great theology.

How do you like this:

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
The Institutes Book 3 Chapter 24 Paragraph 8


How would someone know they are not one of the above mentioned?
There would be no way of knowing if one is really saved or not.

 

[OzSpen]

You never define "free will" so I am not going to get too deep into what is not defined.

According to the outcome of Arminian thought (you're not an Arminian) God gave up his freedom of choice in regards to determining who would be his children. The children's freedom to choice (libertarian free will) allows them to decide from indifference, in such a way as to force adoption according to the rules God put in place that He is subject to. (God is no longer free to decide, we are ... God is subject to our indifferent wishes)

Agreed


God and man both can not be free. Either God makes the decision or we do. I say God is free to make all decisions as He determines/ordains all things and you say God is free to make some decisions and He has given away His freedom to choose to man in some decisions.
SO, man "A" is free to kill man "B" who is not a Christian at the time. If man "B" had lived another 5 years he would have come to salvific belief in God. So in effect, man "A" determined man "B" fate in hell. Man "A"s "libertarian free will" cancelled man "B"s libertarian free will. So, although God can give man "libertarian free will", another man's free will can take it away. Oh praise the power of indifferent "libertarian free will".


LOL ... well, as shown above ... there may be another person in the mix with libertarian free will that may nullify the decision. What a mess.


I think we agree that everyone deserves hell. So everyone that goes to hell got what they deserved; they get justice ... there is no one in hell that doesn't belong to be there.
Praise God He didn't give you or I what we deserved/justice; He gave us grace so that no one can boost


I'm a Calvinist. I know why someone is in hell. They sinned and the penalty of sin is death in hell.

Fastfredy,

What is your understanding of what Jacob (James) Arminius taught on free will and election? Please cite Arminius directly.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Need to pull the reigns in as the OP is not about Calvinism vs Arminianism vs Christianity vs Catholicism vs Libertarian free-will. The OP is not about good vs evil. The OP is about free-will choice and what is already written in the scriptures. Let's stick with the scriptures and not what man has written as their belief according to their doctrines.

We need to get back to the topic of this thread as it's beginning to become a battlefield of views on what's right vs what's wrong according to mans theories and teachings.

Unity in the Body of Christ
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Hi FHG,
I had started a thread on the above about a month or so ago.
It was about how we should use the bible as our authority and not
catechism books like the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF) or
the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church).

It didn't get too much response which I'm sorry about because this seems
to be an important topic to me.

It's OK to listen to men preach and/or teach....but it should not be the doctrines
of a man that we follow but the doctrines of Christ.

We definitely would be more united in our thinking...
as is what Jesus wanted.

1 Corinthians 1:10
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Peter 3:8
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Oh, and this:


1 John 2:9
9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.