IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[jasonc]

I agree that HATE is a figure of speech in Romans 9.

There is proof here that God does not predestine everything.
IF He did,,,Jacob would have been born first and Esau second.

Why would God have Esau be born first if He controlled everything that happened in this world?
God created nature....and He allows nature to work naturally.
When it does not...we call it a miracle.

God did not hate Esau.
He teaches that we are to love Him, our neighbor and ourselves.
God does not contradict Himself.

Jesus meant, as you've stated, that HE is to be first in our lives.
We must love Him so much that the rest looks like hate..
OR,,,we must put everything else in second place.

but God blessed isreal alone and protected them but not the sephardic land?

or Ashkenazi.aAbraham god choose not because Abraham was good he wasn't .he was an idolater.abraham listened that's all but off all in Chaldea only,Abraham .only isreal is the apold in God's eye .not the church can claim that .

 

[GodsGrace]

but God blessed isreal alone and protected them but not the sephardic land?

or Ashkenazi.aAbraham god choose not because Abraham was good he wasn't .he was an idolater.abraham listened that's all but off all in Chaldea only,Abraham .only isreal is the apold in God's eye .not the church can claim that .

I agree.
I believe Abraham is another person God chose.
God DID choose some persons for very specific purposes.
He knew Abraham was the right choice to accomplish what
Abraham accomplished.
He took the Jews and made them into a tribe. (I mean Hebrews).
(the beginning of a nation).

 

[jasonc]

but God blessed isreal alone and protected them but not the sephardic land?

or Ashkenazi.aAbraham god choose not because Abraham was good he wasn't .he was an idolater.abraham listened that's all but off all in Chaldea only,Abraham .only isreal is the apold in God's eye .not the church can claim that .

on the words hate .my pastor is able speak ,read abd write Hebrew and Yiddish .I will ask ,Hebrew doesn't have words like that .poetry yes but its a bit different

 

[GodsGrace]

I hereby present to you a coupon to be used whenever you wish:

ONE COMPLIMENT



I am sure the WCF and Calvin usually agreed.
I assume Calvin didn't even agree with himself occasionally as time went by.


Hmmm... interesting... I can' imagine much difference. I think some the wording is copied from the WCF.
They differed on the baptism of babies....that's all I know off the top of my head.

Thanks for the COMPLIMENT.
I'm using it immediately....

 

[jasonc]

I agree.
I believe Abraham is another person God chose.
God DID choose some persons for very specific purposes.
He knew Abraham was the right choice to accomplish what
Abraham accomplished.
He took the Jews and made them into a tribe. (I mean Hebrews).
(the beginning of a nation).

and he didnt know that easau wasn't ?you can't logically say he predestined Abraham alone but not anyone else and be consistent

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

oh because the vowels are gone .

You don't know about this?
Do I have to teach you everything Jewish?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was wondering the same thing. I asked my good buddy, Google, and got a couple possibilities.

• Windows Communication Foundation.
• Westminster Confession of Faith.

Windows Communication Foundation,
Yes, I'm sure they have their own confession of faith too.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Someone should publish a LOA!

(List of acronyms)

We use to have that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/
There is a shorter catechism: https://opc.org/sc.html
There is a longer catechism: https://opc.org/lc.html
There is a middle sized catechism: https://justKidding


I think the answer is in the question.

So you don't know either.
Why don't you just say so.
We need to get the book "Abbreviation for Dummies".

 

[Fastfredy0]

FF,,,
Hitler wasn't claiming to be working under the authority of God....

I only used (or tried to) Hilter to show they one should not conflate the bad actions of a person to a group that he might be associated with.
R.C.s not bad because Hilter baptized by R.C.
Calvinists not bad because hyper-Calvinist group is a bunch of 'loons'
... otherwise, I don't care about Hilter save to make a point

Also, RC Sproul does say that God loves His creation.
I think you have a problem with distinguishing between God loving His creation (us),

My guess is Sproul said God LOVED (not loves) His creation. Maybe I am wrong. God loves everything he created or approves of. Later, because of Adam and Eve (mainly Eve... j/k) He cursed the planet ...so I hesitate to say God still loves the planet ... also, He is going to destroy it ...not a show of love to my books.

which is why He would want all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

I don't want to get into it deeply. I am sure Sproul would exegete the verse by saying God has a Sovereign will and permissive will. Example: The most compelling example of God’s willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son.

I also found the video of him speaking about how God created sin and evil...

I think it's at about 29.0, or 30.0 - listen carefully

Woohoo ... real evidence ... let me listen
Note: I don't count the little girl saying something like "why did God create evil"... doesn't count ... lol
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
30:38ish "not that God brings moral evil" R.C. Sproul (he is mentioning verse the says God created evil and saying not moral evil, but the verse is about calamity like an earthquake
30:59 "Augustine says that God ordain freely and immutably everything that comes to pass. (In a certain sense). ... God ordained there be a devil... God ordained that man would sin ... then Spoul's usual saying .. .Evil is evil and good is good and evil in never good, yet it is good that evil exist or God would never have allowed it.

O.K. ... no where does the clip save God created evil . Granted, God ordained it (allowed it) and he didn't have too. I believe you agree with that .... so, again, Sproul and Calvinists do not believe God created evil. I don't know of any denomination that believes that.
Background info: The understanding of what evil is also helpful. It is NOT a THING and therefore cannot be created. Evil is the lack of a thing. Evil exists, but it is NOT a THING. It is a parasite. It needs a host (man, demon) to exist. It is the lack of conformity to whatever God says is righteous.
Anyways, I am sure you will find somewhere in the clip what you believe is Sproul saying God creates evil even though Sproul in the clip at 30:22 and 30:38 explicitly says God Does NOT Create Evil..
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
Aside: Thank you, thank you for not making me listen to entire clip

 

[GodsGrace]

Its very simple many times when Jesus spake to the Apostles, it was as they represented the Body of Christ they were part of.

I agree that many times Jesus spoke to the Apostles what can be applied to all of us.
However, not in all cases.

Not all in His Body of believers goes from nation to nation preaching, teaching, and baptizing.
Not all in His Body of believers can be preachers, deacons, etc.

There are some limitations and circumstances where Jesus spoke ONLY for the Apostles.

Predestination of who will be saved is not taught in scripture....

So....

When Jesus said that "I CHOSE YOU" He did NOT mean all of humanity,
but was referring ONLY to the 12 Apostles.

John 6:70
70Jesus answered them. "Did I myself not choose you, the twelves..."

Also, in John 15:16 it states that Jesus ORDAINED those spoken to for service...
Did Jesus ORDAIN all of His disciples or just the Apostles?

Please read the entire chapter and what comes before...

John 15:16
16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17“This I command you, that you love one another.

18“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
20“Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21“But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
22“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23“He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24“If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25“But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’

As you can see, Jesus then speaks of a certain THEM....
at this point He is speaking of the other disciples.
For the Apostles, Jesus refers to the as YOU

 

[jasonc]

I only used (or tried to) Hilter to show they one should not conflate the bad actions of a person to a group that he might be associated with.
R.C.s not bad because Hilter baptized by R.C.
Calvinists not bad because hyper-Calvinist group is a bunch of 'loons'
... otherwise, I don't care about Hilter save to make a point


My guess is Sproul said God LOVED (not loves) His creation. Maybe I am wrong. God loves everything he created or approves of. Later, because of Adam and Eve (mainly Eve... j/k) He cursed the planet ...so I hesitate to say God still loves the planet ... also, He is going to destroy it ...not a show of love to my books.


I don't want to get into it deeply. I am sure Sproul would exegete the verse by saying God has a Sovereign will and permissive will. Example: The most compelling example of God’s willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son.



Woohoo ... real evidence ... let me listen
Note: I don't count the little girl saying something like "why did God create evil"... doesn't count ... lol
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
30:38ish "not that God brings moral evil" R.C. Sproul (he is mentioning verse the says God created evil and saying not moral evil, but the verse is about calamity like an earthquake
30:59 "Augustine says that God ordain freely and immutably everything that comes to pass. (In a certain sense). ... God ordained there be a devil... God ordained that man would sin ... then Spoul's usual saying .. .Evil is evil and good is good and evil in never good, yet it is good that evil exist or God would never have allowed it.

O.K. ... no where does the clip save God created evil . Granted, God ordained it (allowed it) and he didn't have too. I believe you agree with that .... so, again, Sproul and Calvinists do not believe God created evil. I don't know of any denomination that believes that.
Background info: The understanding of what evil is also helpful. It is NOT a THING and therefore cannot be created. Evil is the lack of a thing. Evil exists, but it is NOT a THING. It is a parasite. It needs a host (man, demon) to exist. It is the lack of conformity to whatever God says is righteous.
Anyways, I am sure you will find somewhere in the clip what you believe is Sproul saying God creates evil even though Sproul in the clip at 30:22 and 30:38 explicitly says God Does NOT Create Evil..
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
Aside: Thank you, thank you for not making me listen to entire clip

because I hear these bias in my church . I also see ignorance posted and that's why i speak up .

my pastor preached James 4 at the bible study .he went into our making plans and scheduling and then at dawn God changes it and none happens in his ministry but souls blessed,saved .

I have heard that from the opposite side .it was on Gods sovereignity .seems like God knows what to do .

 

[GodsGrace]

I only used (or tried to) Hilter to show they one should not conflate the bad actions of a person to a group that he might be associated with.
R.C.s not bad because Hilter baptized by R.C.
Calvinists not bad because hyper-Calvinist group is a bunch of 'loons'
... otherwise, I don't care about Hilter save to make a point


My guess is Sproul said God LOVED (not loves) His creation. Maybe I am wrong. God loves everything he created or approves of. Later, because of Adam and Eve (mainly Eve... j/k) He cursed the planet ...so I hesitate to say God still loves the planet ... also, He is going to destroy it ...not a show of love to my books.


I don't want to get into it deeply. I am sure Sproul would exegete the verse by saying God has a Sovereign will and permissive will. Example: The most compelling example of God’s willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son.



Woohoo ... real evidence ... let me listen
Note: I don't count the little girl saying something like "why did God create evil"... doesn't count ... lol
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
30:38ish "not that God brings moral evil" R.C. Sproul (he is mentioning verse the says God created evil and saying not moral evil, but the verse is about calamity like an earthquake
30:59 "Augustine says that God ordain freely and immutably everything that comes to pass. (In a certain sense). ... God ordained there be a devil... God ordained that man would sin ... then Spoul's usual saying .. .Evil is evil and good is good and evil in never good, yet it is good that evil exist or God would never have allowed it.

O.K. ... no where does the clip save God created evil . Granted, God ordained it (allowed it) and he didn't have too. I believe you agree with that .... so, again, Sproul and Calvinists do not believe God created evil. I don't know of any denomination that believes that.
Background info: The understanding of what evil is also helpful. It is NOT a THING and therefore cannot be created. Evil is the lack of a thing. Evil exists, but it is NOT a THING. It is a parasite. It needs a host (man, demon) to exist. It is the lack of conformity to whatever God says is righteous.
Anyways, I am sure you will find somewhere in the clip what you believe is Sproul saying God creates evil even though Sproul in the clip at 30:22 and 30:38 explicitly says God Does NOT Create Evil..
30:22 "we say that God did not create evil" R.C. Sproul
Aside: Thank you, thank you for not making me listen to entire clip

I told you to listen carefully.
With calvinists you have to listen between the lines and read between the lines.
It's up there so others could listen for themselves.

Ordain:

order (something) officially.
"equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"


You love to use the word ORDAIN when it comes to predestination.
Are you changing the meaning now?

God ordained,means that God ordered that evil or sin to exist.

Sproul even said that evil is not good....
but it's good that it exists.

LISTEN CAREFULLY when a calvinist speaks.

 

[Fastfredy0]

After all, He did make us in His image and He certainly has free will.

You never define "free will" so I am not going to get too deep into what is not defined.

According to the outcome of Arminian thought (you're not an Arminian) God gave up his freedom of choice in regards to determining who would be his children. The children's freedom to choice (libertarian free will) allows them to decide from indifference, in such a way as to force adoption according to the rules God put in place that He is subject to. (God is no longer free to decide, we are ... God is subject to our indifferent wishes)

Of course, His will absolutely will not go against His nature.

Agreed

Of course, His will absolutely will not go against His nature...but it is free.
This freedom was passed on to us.

God and man both can not be free. Either God makes the decision or we do. I say God is free to make all decisions as He determines/ordains all things and you say God is free to make some decisions and He has given away His freedom to choose to man in some decisions.
SO, man "A" is free to kill man "B" who is not a Christian at the time. If man "B" had lived another 5 years he would have come to salvific belief in God. So in effect, man "A" determined man "B" fate in hell. Man "A"s "libertarian free will" cancelled man "B"s libertarian free will. So, although God can give man "libertarian free will", another man's free will can take it away. Oh praise the power of indifferent "libertarian free will".

So if you choose A for heaven or B for hell, it will be your choice, and God will be just in sending you to hell if you chose B.

LOL ... well, as shown above ... there may be another person in the mix with libertarian free will that may nullify the decision. What a mess.

n your view of theology,,,,how could God be just in sending anyone to hell unless He either sent everyone there
or gave everyone the same opportunity to become saved??

I think we agree that everyone deserves hell. So everyone that goes to hell got what they deserved; they get justice ... there is no one in hell that doesn't belong to be there.
Praise God He didn't give you or I what we deserved/justice; He gave us grace so that no one can boost

Doing wrong has consequences....in calvinist theology this is not true because those that end up in hell don't even know why.

I'm a Calvinist. I know why someone is in hell. They sinned and the penalty of sin is death in hell.

 

[Fastfredy0]

This sounds to me like we have to do the works ourselves - with the HELP of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.

God is honored when anyone is saved...of their own free will.

You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined.

If God is controlling your desire.....
HOW is that any kind free will??

You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined. I define it differently that you.

I read them so I can know what Calvin taught.

Also, the other denominations (not including the R.C.s) don't clearly express the doctrine in much detail or agreement .. so hard to study. Be careful, the evil influence of Calvinism might take a hold of you. *smiles*

Is He allowing you....
or have you been predestined to tell me I'm right??

The devil made me do it in a moment of weakness. God allowed the devil to tempt me. "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips".

 

[GodsGrace]

and he didnt know that easau wasn't ?you can't logically say he predestined Abraham alone but not anyone else and be consistent

Why can't I say that?
God can do whatever He wants to do.
He could choose some persons for specific jobs...
but not everybody.

The bible teaches that man has free will.
This means that predestination is not taught.
But God could still choose Moses to get the Israelites out of Egypt.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You love to use the word ORDAIN when it comes to predestination.
Are you changing the meaning now?

They mean the same to me. I think technically "predestination" is a subset of "ordain" and pertains to man's salvation only, but I could be wrong. God ordains, plan, predestines, orders, commands everything that happens. All mean the same to me. I think I have been consistent.
Aside: I hate when I forget a "NOT" in front of a verb

God ordained,means that God ordered that evil or sin to exist.

I preferred ALLOWED in connection with evil as that does not infer God's "positive" action whereas 'ordain' could be a 'positive' or 'negative/none' action. He did ordain evil. He did allow evil. ALLOW is more explicit.

Sproul even said that evil is not good....
but it's good that it exists.

Agreed. Makes sense to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.



You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined.

You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined. I define it differently that you.


Also, the other denominations (not including the R.C.s) don't clearly express the doctrine in much detail or agreement .. so hard to study. Be careful, the evil influence of Calvinism might take a hold of you. *smiles*





The devil made me do it in a moment of weakness. God allowed the devil to tempt me. "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips".

It sounds like you're kidding around.
Anyway, it's late here and I have to log off.
Will get to your post tomorrow.
I just wish you'd stop with the cop out that I don't explain what I mean by free will.
It's a cop out FF.
'night.

 

[jasonc]

I told you to listen carefully.
With calvinists you have to listen between the lines and read between the lines.
It's up there so others could listen for themselves.

Ordain:

order (something) officially.
"equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"


You love to use the word ORDAIN when it comes to predestination.
Are you changing the meaning now?

God ordained,means that God ordered that evil or sin to exist.

Sproul even said that evil is not good....
but it's good that it exists.

LISTEN CAREFULLY when a calvinist speaks.

yet i can eequally turn the logic against you .

you state that Catholics don't worship idols.

sitting at an icon of mary with my copy of books of prayer to Mary

its lost a requests to be forgiven ,a trait only God has power . the dead unless we know them before can't forgive sins before their lives ended .

m

Why can't I say that?
God can do whatever He wants to do.
He could choose some persons for specific jobs...
but not everybody.

The bible teaches that man has free will.
This means that predestination is not taught.
But God could still choose Moses to get the Israelites out of Egypt.

ok ,so when God created adam he free will but not Mary or Jacob or abraham .God overruled them to suit his plan to save souls ,but won't override my will to do my bidding at all ,or to use a pastor ?he only plans for certaib things and where is it he said i will stop dealing with nations ?

the roman empire ,Greek and others after are in prophecy ,God crushed them all .

yet well that stature

I'm jewish ,not a gentile . your argument argues that we aren't chosen to be .

God works to save isreal his chosen . I bet many jews he choose to save to fulfill that Romans verse.

I am one ,not that im special .most saved jews .my brother arminian has stated that to me and i him.

isreals fate is mine. it dies ,I die .

so he does still do that . its incredulous to state God only plans for three people and forces his will on them and allows them to have limited .our nature to include Adam's whose our originator of our nature had free will per you ,but not Abraham ,Jacob or mary?

this is why im neither . john db is correct

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

according to.....
according to.....
according to.....
I hear a lot of that in this thread.

It's no longer what we think anymore.
Now it's about according to.....

You people.....
Anything for an argument.
Remind me, next time I talk to you people, to say "according to".....