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IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

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wondering said:
The bible teaches that man has free will.
Click to expand...
The bible does not teach that. There are a couple verses using the term "free will" and you hi-jack them by stating the definition of the term in the Bible matches your definition of the term.

Libertarian free will is the position a person, even in his fallen nature, is at liberty to freely choose to do good or bad and is not restricted by his sinful nature. In my opinion, Libertarian Free Will is not biblical. https://carm.org/molinism/what-is-libertarian-free-will-and-is-it-biblical/

According to libertarian free will, people can do morally good things such as receiving Christ. But, how is it possible for an unbeliever to exercise his “free will” and do morally good things, including choosing Christ, when the Bible says he has a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), can do no good (Romans 3:10-12), is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)? I am honestly bewildered how any Christian could hold to libertarian free will in light of these scriptures.

Libertarian free will is not biblical since it appears to violate Scripture and excludes God as the standard of what free will really is. Therefore, libertarian free will is a philosophical position imposed upon Scripture.

Even Aminians (you're not an arminian) don't think libertarian free will is in the Bible save for prevenient grace which has minimal scriptural evidence to support it.

SHOW ME THE LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL VERSES ... they should include a definition of 'free will' and not something you impose on the words 'free will' that appear in the bible.

Aside: You won't even define LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL let alone can you find it in the bible. In other words, what you won't tell anyone what it means, that unknown commodity is in the Bible.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
It's no longer what we think anymore.
Now it's about according to.....

You people.....
Anything for an argument.
Remind me, next time I talk to you people, to say "according to".....
Click to expand...
According to Rollo it's "no longer what we think anymore"
 
Fastfredy0 said:
The bible does not teach that. There are a couple verses using the term "free will" and you hi-jack them by stating the definition of the term in the Bible matches your definition of the term.

Libertarian free will is the position a person, even in his fallen nature, is at liberty to freely choose to do good or bad and is not restricted by his sinful nature. In my opinion, Libertarian Free Will is not biblical. https://carm.org/molinism/what-is-libertarian-free-will-and-is-it-biblical/

According to libertarian free will, people can do morally good things such as receiving Christ. But, how is it possible for an unbeliever to exercise his “free will” and do morally good things, including choosing Christ, when the Bible says he has a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), can do no good (Romans 3:10-12), is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)? I am honestly bewildered how any Christian could hold to libertarian free will in light of these scriptures.

Libertarian free will is not biblical since it appears to violate Scripture and excludes God as the standard of what free will really is. Therefore, libertarian free will is a philosophical position imposed upon Scripture.

Even Aminians (you're not an arminian) don't think libertarian free will is in the Bible save for prevenient grace which has minimal scriptural evidence to support it.

SHOW ME THE LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL VERSES ... they should include a definition of 'free will' and not something you impose on the words 'free will' that appear in the bible.

Aside: You won't even define LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL let alone can you find it in the bible. In other words, what you won't tell anyone what it means, that unknown commodity is in the Bible.
Click to expand...

FREE WILL
The biblical ground for free will lies in the fall into sin by Adam and Eve that occurred in their "willfully chosen" disobedience to God. "Freedom" and "free will" can be treated as one because the two terms are commonly used as synonyms.
According to.....Wiki.....
 
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Rollo Tamasi said:
The biblical ground for free will lies in the fall into sin by Adam and Eve that occurred in their "willfully chosen"
Click to expand...
The statement lacks a definition of "free will".
Augustine's definition which concurs with reality and I agree with: One always does what one desires most at the time.
Adam and Eve did what they desired most at the time.

Wikipedia: Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. (I didn't see where freedom and 'free will' was equivalent in wikipedia.)
 
for_his_glory said:
I would like to add to this.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26. Pharaoh is a good example of this.
Click to expand...

FHG,

It's important that Isa 45:7 (ESV) not be created as KJV and NKJV, "I (God) ... create evil." God does not create evil anywhere in the world. The correct translations of this verse are in versions such as:
  • ESV, "I (Yahweh) make well-being and create calamity."
  • NASB, "Causing well-being [or 'peace'] and creating calamity."
  • HCSB, "I make success and create disaster."
  • NET, "the one who brings about peace and creates calamity.
  • "NIV, "I bring prosperity and create disaster."
  • NJB, "I make well-being, and I create disaster."
  • NLT, "I send good times and bad times."
  • NRSV, "I make weal and create woe" [The footnote at "create woe" was: "God created and controls all aspects of creation (light and darkness, order and chaos."
  • Orthodox Jewish Bible, "I make shalom, and create rah,"
  • REB, "author alike of wellbeing and woe."
It's important to note the KJV, in some places translates rah as "calamity" (Psalm 141:5); "distress" (Nehemiah 2:17); "adversity" (Psalm 94:13 and in other verses); "grief" (Nehemiah 2:10 and in other verses); "affliction" (Numbers 11:11 and in other verses); "misery" (Ecclesiastes 8:6); "trouble" (Psalm 41:1 and in other verses) "hurt" (Genesis 26:29 and in other verses); and by other words including "wretchedness", "harm", "ill", "mischief", and "sorrow".

The Hebrew, rah, does not mean "evil" (as we understand it) in the ASV, Douay-Rheims, KJV, and Lex. Hebrew specialist, H C Leupold explained "The Hebrew [of rah] would allow for such a translation [i.e. evil]. But it is not the morally good and the morally evil that are said to lie totally in his power, as far as their physical aspects and consequences are concerned" (Exposition of Isaiah, vol 2, 1971, p. 122).

Oz
 
jasonc said:
yet i can eequally turn the logic against you .

you state that Catholics don't worship idols.

sitting at an icon of mary with my copy of books of prayer to Mary

its lost a requests to be forgiven ,a trait only God has power . the dead unless we know them before can't forgive sins before their lives ended .

m
ok ,so when God created adam he free will but not Mary or Jacob or abraham .God overruled them to suit his plan to save souls ,but won't override my will to do my bidding at all ,or to use a pastor ?he only plans for certaib things and where is it he said i will stop dealing with nations ?

the roman empire ,Greek and others after are in prophecy ,God crushed them all .

yet well that stature

I'm jewish ,not a gentile . your argument argues that we aren't chosen to be .

God works to save isreal his chosen . I bet many jews he choose to save to fulfill that Romans verse.

I am one ,not that im special .most saved jews .my brother arminian has stated that to me and i him.

isreals fate is mine. it dies ,I die .

so he does still do that . its incredulous to state God only plans for three people and forces his will on them and allows them to have limited .our nature to include Adam's whose our originator of our nature had free will per you ,but not Abraham ,Jacob or mary?

this is why im neither . john db is correct
Click to expand...
I just don't know what to say Jason.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
You never define "free will" so I am not going to get too deep into what is not defined.

According to the outcome of Arminian thought (you're not an Arminian) God gave up his freedom of choice in regards to determining who would be his children. The children's freedom to choice (libertarian free will) allows them to decide from indifference, in such a way as to force adoption according to the rules God put in place that He is subject to. (God is no longer free to decide, we are ... God is subject to our indifferent wishes)

Agreed


God and man both can not be free. Either God makes the decision or we do. I say God is free to make all decisions as He determines/ordains all things and you say God is free to make some decisions and He has given away His freedom to choose to man in some decisions.
SO, man "A" is free to kill man "B" who is not a Christian at the time. If man "B" had lived another 5 years he would have come to salvific belief in God. So in effect, man "A" determined man "B" fate in hell. Man "A"s "libertarian free will" cancelled man "B"s libertarian free will. So, although God can give man "libertarian free will", another man's free will can take it away. Oh praise the power of indifferent "libertarian free will".


LOL ... well, as shown above ... there may be another person in the mix with libertarian free will that may nullify the decision. What a mess.


I think we agree that everyone deserves hell. So everyone that goes to hell got what they deserved; they get justice ... there is no one in hell that doesn't belong to be there.
Praise God He didn't give you or I what we deserved/justice; He gave us grace so that no one can boost


I'm a Calvinist. I know why someone is in hell. They sinned and the penalty of sin is death in hell.
Click to expand...
Too much talk...
not enough scripture.

What do these verses mean to you?

Deuteronomy 30:15-19

15“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,


It speaks about the heart turning away from the One true God.
It gives the people a CHOICE to CHOOSE LIFE.

The heart is turning away by choice.
Choosing life is a choice.

A choice is the indication that free will is given to man.
Free will is a will that chooses, for itself with no coercion, what the choice will be.
I could choose either A or B without God coercing me into making that choice.
Please stop saying you don't know my explanation of FREE WILL.
Please explain the above verses.
 
OzSpen said:
FHG,

It's important that Isa 45:7 (ESV) not be created as KJV and NKJV, "I (God) ... create evil." God does not create evil anywhere in the world. The correct translations of this verse are in versions such as:
  • ESV, "I (Yahweh) make well-being and create calamity."
  • NASB, "Causing well-being [or 'peace'] and creating calamity."
  • HCSB, "I make success and create disaster."
  • NET, "the one who brings about peace and creates calamity.
  • "NIV, "I bring prosperity and create disaster."
  • NJB, "I make well-being, and I create disaster."
  • NLT, "I send good times and bad times."
  • NRSV, "I make weal and create woe" [The footnote at "create woe" was: "God created and controls all aspects of creation (light and darkness, order and chaos."
  • Orthodox Jewish Bible, "I make shalom, and create rah,"
  • REB, "author alike of wellbeing and woe."
It's important to note the KJV, in some places translates rah as "calamity" (Psalm 141:5); "distress" (Nehemiah 2:17); "adversity" (Psalm 94:13 and in other verses); "grief" (Nehemiah 2:10 and in other verses); "affliction" (Numbers 11:11 and in other verses); "misery" (Ecclesiastes 8:6); "trouble" (Psalm 41:1 and in other verses) "hurt" (Genesis 26:29 and in other verses); and by other words including "wretchedness", "harm", "ill", "mischief", and "sorrow".

The Hebrew, rah, does not mean "evil" (as we understand it) in the ASV, Douay-Rheims, KJV, and Lex. Hebrew specialist, H C Leupold explained "The Hebrew [of rah] would allow for such a translation [i.e. evil]. But it is not the morally good and the morally evil that are said to lie totally in his power, as far as their physical aspects and consequences are concerned" (Exposition of Isaiah, vol 2, 1971, p. 122).

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Oz,
I think I've heard enough about evil and calamity.
Calamity IS evil.
It certainly is not a good and something must be either good or bad.
No grey areas where God is concerned.

God did NOT create evil or calamity.
The people of the O.T. believed that God caused everything....
even calamity.

But the calamity happens because God withdraws His protecting hand over a nation
and because evil persons bring about evil results.

God is all good and in Him there is no darkness.
Our Calvinist friends state that God CREATED evil and that it's good that evil exists.
That would be the calvinists that are not afraid to say what they really think.
And if anyone does not agree with this,,,they should stop calling themselves a Calvinist.

Doug Wilson is a calvinist. He states that God created evil and has no qualms about it.
Start at about 9.30


 
Fastfredy0 said:
The bible does not teach that. There are a couple verses using the term "free will" and you hi-jack them by stating the definition of the term in the Bible matches your definition of the term.

Libertarian free will is the position a person, even in his fallen nature, is at liberty to freely choose to do good or bad and is not restricted by his sinful nature. In my opinion, Libertarian Free Will is not biblical. https://carm.org/molinism/what-is-libertarian-free-will-and-is-it-biblical/

According to libertarian free will, people can do morally good things such as receiving Christ. But, how is it possible for an unbeliever to exercise his “free will” and do morally good things, including choosing Christ, when the Bible says he has a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), can do no good (Romans 3:10-12), is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)? I am honestly bewildered how any Christian could hold to libertarian free will in light of these scriptures.

Libertarian free will is not biblical since it appears to violate Scripture and excludes God as the standard of what free will really is. Therefore, libertarian free will is a philosophical position imposed upon Scripture.

Even Aminians (you're not an arminian) don't think libertarian free will is in the Bible save for prevenient grace which has minimal scriptural evidence to support it.

SHOW ME THE LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL VERSES ... they should include a definition of 'free will' and not something you impose on the words 'free will' that appear in the bible.

Aside: You won't even define LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL let alone can you find it in the bible. In other words, what you won't tell anyone what it means, that unknown commodity is in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Man has a deceitful heart.
What does that have to do with free will?
An unbeliever can do no good?
I'm thinking of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates...they gave away, and are giving away, millions to improve the world.

Free will is all over the O.T. and the N.T.

What does the following mean to YOU?:

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus states that the Jewish people (most of them) were UNWILLING to come to Him and believe.
If God predetermined everything....did He forget to tell His Son?
Why was Jesus expecting the Jews to come to Him of their own will?
He said the were UNWILLING.

Please explain.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
They mean the same to me. I think technically "predestination" is a subset of "ordain" and pertains to man's salvation only, but I could be wrong. God ordains, plan, predestines, orders, commands everything that happens. All mean the same to me. I think I have been consistent.
Aside: I hate when I forget a "NOT" in front of a verb :sad



I preferred ALLOWED in connection with evil as that does not infer God's "positive" action whereas 'ordain' could be a 'positive' or 'negative/none' action. He did ordain evil. He did allow evil. ALLOW is more explicit.


Agreed. Makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
First you said predestination pertains to man's salvation only.
Then you said God ordains, plans, predestines, order, commands EVERYTHING that happens.
Here's what you stated above:
I think technically "predestination" is a subset of "ordain" and pertains to man's salvation only, but I could be wrong. God ordains, plan, predestines, orders, commands everything that happens.

That God predestines EVERYTHING is in line with Calvin's teachings.
(the NOT before a verb has nothing to do with this)

Then you state that you prefer the word ALLOW in connection with God and evil...God allows evil.
Ordain and Allow are two different thoughts.

Every Christian knows that God ALLOWS evil...
but they do not believe God ORDAINED evil...

Please make up your mind.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Agreed.
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee". He gives two reasons for not venturing to boast of his works before God: first, that if he has any good works, he does not see in them anything of his own; and, secondly, that these works are overwhelmed by a multitude of sins. Whence it is, that the conscience derives from them more fear and alarm than security.



You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined.

You never define free will, so I am not responding to something that is not defined. I define it differently that you.


Also, the other denominations (not including the R.C.s) don't clearly express the doctrine in much detail or agreement .. so hard to study. Be careful, the evil influence of Calvinism might take a hold of you. *smiles*





The devil made me do it in a moment of weakness. God allowed the devil to tempt me. "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips".
Click to expand...
Cop out again.
You won't answer questions about free will because you cannot.
You know very well what true free will is.

Also, why do you quote Augustine.
Who cares what Augustine taught 400 years after Jesus' death and with whom NO OTHER THEOLOGIAN agreed with
or even had his ideas before he came along.

Please quote something from the N.T. which Jesus said that would show that we lack free will.

I THINK Jesus should be our authority.
I THINK Jesus came here to teach us how to become saved.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
You never define "free will" so I am not going to get too deep into what is not defined.

According to the outcome of Arminian thought (you're not an Arminian) God gave up his freedom of choice in regards to determining who would be his children. The children's freedom to choice (libertarian free will) allows them to decide from indifference, in such a way as to force adoption according to the rules God put in place that He is subject to. (God is no longer free to decide, we are ... God is subject to our indifferent wishes)

Agreed


God and man both can not be free. Either God makes the decision or we do. I say God is free to make all decisions as He determines/ordains all things and you say God is free to make some decisions and He has given away His freedom to choose to man in some decisions.
SO, man "A" is free to kill man "B" who is not a Christian at the time. If man "B" had lived another 5 years he would have come to salvific belief in God. So in effect, man "A" determined man "B" fate in hell. Man "A"s "libertarian free will" cancelled man "B"s libertarian free will. So, although God can give man "libertarian free will", another man's free will can take it away. Oh praise the power of indifferent "libertarian free will".


LOL ... well, as shown above ... there may be another person in the mix with libertarian free will that may nullify the decision. What a mess.


I think we agree that everyone deserves hell. So everyone that goes to hell got what they deserved; they get justice ... there is no one in hell that doesn't belong to be there.
Praise God He didn't give you or I what we deserved/justice; He gave us grace so that no one can boost


I'm a Calvinist. I know why someone is in hell. They sinned and the penalty of sin is death in hell.
Click to expand...
Please explain how a person gets into hell in your theology.
 
Walpole said:
Someone should publish a LOA!

(List of acronyms)
Click to expand...
I worked in electrical design for 20+ years and acronyms were used so much they became second nature. I never really cared for them because when used there's an implied assumption that everyone your speaking to knows what you're talking about.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
according to.....
according to.....
according to.....
I hear a lot of that in this thread.

It's no longer what we think anymore.
Now it's about according to.....

You people.....
Anything for an argument.
Remind me, next time I talk to you people, to say "according to".....
Click to expand...
According to....Scripture. Doesn't that hold more weight than according to.....what I think?
 
wondering said:
Too much talk...
not enough scripture.

What do these verses mean to you?

Deuteronomy 30:15-19

15“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,


It speaks about the heart turning away from the One true God.
It gives the people a CHOICE to CHOOSE LIFE.

The heart is turning away by choice.
Choosing life is a choice.

A choice is the indication that free will is given to man.
Free will is a will that chooses, for itself with no coercion, what the choice will be.
I could choose either A or B without God coercing me into making that choice.
Please stop saying you don't know my explanation of FREE WILL.
Please explain the above verses.
Click to expand...

It clearly means that God has mandated through His word and by His Spirit that mankind must choose to obey God or disobey God; it’s our choice.


God desires that we would choose obedience and life rather than disobedience and death.


No amount of man’s commentaries can explain away this eternal truth.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9






JLB
 
OzSpen said:
FHG,

It's important that Isa 45:7 (ESV) not be created as KJV and NKJV, "I (God) ... create evil." God does not create evil anywhere in the world. The correct translations of this verse are in versions such as:
  • ESV, "I (Yahweh) make well-being and create calamity."
  • NASB, "Causing well-being [or 'peace'] and creating calamity."
  • HCSB, "I make success and create disaster."
  • NET, "the one who brings about peace and creates calamity.
  • "NIV, "I bring prosperity and create disaster."
  • NJB, "I make well-being, and I create disaster."
  • NLT, "I send good times and bad times."
  • NRSV, "I make weal and create woe" [The footnote at "create woe" was: "God created and controls all aspects of creation (light and darkness, order and chaos."
  • Orthodox Jewish Bible, "I make shalom, and create rah,"
  • REB, "author alike of wellbeing and woe."
It's important to note the KJV, in some places translates rah as "calamity" (Psalm 141:5); "distress" (Nehemiah 2:17); "adversity" (Psalm 94:13 and in other verses); "grief" (Nehemiah 2:10 and in other verses); "affliction" (Numbers 11:11 and in other verses); "misery" (Ecclesiastes 8:6); "trouble" (Psalm 41:1 and in other verses) "hurt" (Genesis 26:29 and in other verses); and by other words including "wretchedness", "harm", "ill", "mischief", and "sorrow".

The Hebrew, rah, does not mean "evil" (as we understand it) in the ASV, Douay-Rheims, KJV, and Lex. Hebrew specialist, H C Leupold explained "The Hebrew [of rah] would allow for such a translation [i.e. evil]. But it is not the morally good and the morally evil that are said to lie totally in his power, as far as their physical aspects and consequences are concerned" (Exposition of Isaiah, vol 2, 1971, p. 122).

Oz
Click to expand...
I will paste it here instead of you going back to my post #276 as what you present with all the various translations I said the same thing.

#276 I said, The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26. Pharaoh is a good example of this.
 
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