IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[for_his_glory]

Romans 7:7-25
7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.



The Conflict of Two Natures

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


I agree that our behavior has to be by our own choice....
IF it were NOT....WHY would Paul carry on this way?
Should he not have known that he had no control over his actions due to predestination??

God never predestined the man, but from the beginning only predestined His plan of salvation through His only begotten Son Christ Jesus. Since God created all of us then only predestined those who would be His own would make Him a respecter of person and we know God is no respecter of person, Acts 10:34-35; Romans 2:11-16.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And herein lies the crux of the problem!

Those that believe we have lost our true free will also believe we are still
responsible for our sins.

How could this be?
If God predestines us to sin....how does He then hold us responsible for sinning
IF He is a just God?

I agree with you.

The only way God can be a just God is if He judges us on what we have freely done.

1 John 2:1; "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Do you have Jesus today?
Just confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your hear that he rose from the grave, and you will be saved.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Can someone compel us to do what we otherwise would not?
Maybe under threat of death?
First, I can't think of anything that someone might compel me to do....
this doesn't mean that it can't happen - I just can't think of it right now.

Also, when discussing free will, I'm referring to God giving us free will
or not giving us free will. As you know, calvinists believe in a different type
of free will than other Christians do - which is not really free will.

This will be what this thread is about. (or whatever comes up, such as your post).

When I was a little boy, the fear of abandonment was driven deep within me. I tried (ultimately in vain) to please my depraved step family. The bullying by my older step-brother was extreme and I searched for a way to stop him. I was also bullied by a big kid at school. I liked to make comic strips and in my free time, I had created a little strip I called James Bomb. One day at school Harold was starting to bully the other smaller kids and I knew my turn was next. I quickly renamed/redrew my comic into Super Harold. He found this amusing and stopped bullying me. I then tried to begin to find ways to amuse my half-brother to see if this tactic would work on him. I eventually found that cynical/vile/pessimistic/sarcastic comments about others seemed to be his pacifier. For the most part the bullying ceased. Deep inside I despised him, but for the sake of "family" I felt it was my job to keep him entertained. I did this for decades. I grew to realize I was just a coward. I made extreme racial comments while in his presence, yet had friends who were minorities when I was away from him. I knew better yet felt compelled to practice this absolutely dysfunctional "relationship" until I found I could no longer sustain that which is in complete contradiction to my inner beliefs. Cowardice is my name. I am told I will be held accountable for each idle word and I spoke thousands.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Thanks Walpole.

I'm so happy that Christianity makes sense!
God made us in His image and that included free will.
As far as I can tell, it was not taken away after the fall.

Indeed, if we are not truly free, we cannot have a moral universe...
morality does not exist.

This is why predestination is not taught in the N.T.
Free will and predestination (determinism) do not go hand in hand and
instead are in conflict.

But, as you may know, our St. Augustine (400 A.D.) came up with this
idea and John Calvin wrote much of what he wrote based on Augustine's
doctrine.

I can't, offhand, think of another prominent Christian that agreed with him,
both then and now.

But do you believe God has fore-knowledge of our ultimate choices/destination?

 

[for_his_glory]

There will always be a battle among Christians of whose religion is the best and teaches truth, or at least they think they teach truth for how would they know unless they are truly hearing that of what the Holy Spirit teaches of the doctrines of Christ and not the doctrines and theories of man. What matters when it comes down to man's doctrines (doctrines of lies and deceit) over that of the doctrines of Christ this will and has been causing a great falling away from truth as many do not seek truth, but would rather be taught by others. God does not recognize any organized religion, but only knows those who have a personal relationship with Him and His Son Christ Jesus. God is more concerned about the matters of the heart and what dwells within it.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

How can one be unspotted from the world if they argue over another persons religious choice and puts them down for the choices they make. We are to build up and edify one another, not tearing down those who have a different belief then another does. It's up to each one of us individually to search out truth for our self as the Holy Spirit will always confirm that of truth or error in what we hear others teach us. We all need to learn how to test the spirits that are out there so we will not be deceived into believing lies, 1 John 4:1-7; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

*one body, that being the body of Christ in unison with His word, not man's doctrines and theories
*one Spirit being the very Spirit of God in who teaches us all things, apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach us nothing
*One Lord, (Deity), one faith, (Deity), one baptism, (Deity) Father, Son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit
* One deity that is where our faith is found in and has already taught and given all we need to learn as He is above all as we hear and obey His commands, not man's.

Man is free to choose and to thy own self be true.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am told I will be held accountable for each idle word and I spoke thousands.

What is in the past stays in the past as being a Spiritually born-again child of God He remembers our past sins no more as we have been made new again within our spirit and no longer held accountable of past sins as through repentance God has forgiven us.

 

[jasonc]

unity in essentials ,not uniformity .

there's is no church or person who will agree on every verse .

my views on the trinity coming an anti trinitarian view make me see that closely .

 

[GodsGrace]

unity in essentials ,not uniformity .

there's is no church or person who will agree on every verse .

my views on the trinity coming an anti trinitarian view make me see that closely .

Jason,,,
I'd say that changing the character of God is different from how we understand one verse.

Don't you see how calvinism changes the character of God?

 

[GodsGrace]

But do you believe God has fore-knowledge of our ultimate choices/destination?

Yes...I believe God is omniscient - He knows all, past, present and future.
Time is just one for Him.
And so God has foreknowledge of all....
It's just that having foreknowledge of an event does now mean one has caused that event to take place.
God has foreknowledge, but He does not predestine everything about every man, as Calvin believed.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,,,
I'd say that changing the character of God is different from how we understand one verse.

Don't you see how calvinism changes the character of God?

and charismatics don't
and cessiansits don't ?

an admin I know here positss this if you says speaking in tongues is off the devil ,then you are unsavable ,because its blaspheming the Holy Ghost

i have heard a few Baptists and church members say that and yet God says to me they are mine .

and the reverse of that is also been told ,you are lost if you don't pray in the Holy Ghost


I can pray in that. can you ,have seen visions,prophecied?interpreted tongues ?

those churches that allow it and properly have a deeper view on God ,He is more personable then this that don't .that isn't to say my church or those that don't believe that aren't teaching that or it isn't felt .just different .

have you been in church ,drunk in the Spirit ?lain out .or had that loud worship four hours typical to black churches .

yes to all my earliest time in church was that .

it has issues but yet as my brother who is not charismatic said ,God used that .he was saved in that as I may have led him to repent but he attended churches like it before repenting

 

[jasonc]

and charismatics don't
and cessiansits don't ?

an admin I know here positss this if you says speaking in tongues is off the devil ,then you are unsavable ,because its blaspheming the Holy Ghost

i have heard a few Baptists and church members say that and yet God says to me they are mine .

and the reverse of that is also been told ,you are lost if you don't pray in the Holy Ghost


I can pray in that. can you ,have seen visions,prophecied?interpreted tongues ?

those churches that allow it and properly have a deeper view on God ,He is more personable then this that don't .that isn't to say my church or those that don't believe that aren't teaching that or it isn't felt .just different .

have you been in church ,drunk in the Spirit ?lain out .or had that loud worship four hours typical to black churches .

yes to all my earliest time in church was that .

it has issues but yet as my brother who is not charismatic said ,God used that .he was saved in that as I may have led him to repent but he attended churches like it before repenting

last Saturday my church had a 25th anniversary ,because a visitor who comes a lot was offended by the fact a sister church of pentacostal type was there and the female pastor was there and spoke ,he got offended ,I got involved and bothered by that .I am able to debate by views ,I choose not to and directed him to the elders and informed the pastor ,since then the pastor resolved it .

I nearly left the church .I prayed .this man calls people who aren't in their mind fully ,mental health wise ,demonic possessed and drawn in by that church ,yet as much as I disagree he isn't lost .

he uses his retirement time to always reach the lost !

 

[GodsGrace]

and charismatics don't
and cessiansits don't ?

an admin I know here positss this if you says speaking in tongues is off the devil ,then you are unsavable ,because its blaspheming the Holy Ghost

i have heard a few Baptists and church members say that and yet God says to me they are mine .

and the reverse of that is also been told ,you are lost if you don't pray in the Holy Ghost


I can pray in that. can you ,have seen visions,prophecied?interpreted tongues ?

those churches that allow it and properly have a deeper view on God ,He is more personable then this that don't .that isn't to say my church or those that don't believe that aren't teaching that or it isn't felt .just different .

have you been in church ,drunk in the Spirit ?lain out .or had that loud worship four hours typical to black churches .

yes to all my earliest time in church was that .

it has issues but yet as my brother who is not charismatic said ,God used that .he was saved in that as I may have led him to repent but he attended churches like it before repenting

Charismatics do not change the nature of God.
Speaking in tongues does not change the nature of God.
If we don't pray in the Holy Ghost it does not change the nature of God.
Being drunk in the spirit does not change the nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 2:1; "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Do you have Jesus today?
Just confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your hear that he rose from the grave, and you will be saved.

I think you misunderstood my post about sinning .....
?

I was saying that it's confusing how calvinists believe that God
predestinates everything and so sin must also be predestinated....
Yet, they teach that man is responsible for sin...not God.
This makes no sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

When I was a little boy, the fear of abandonment was driven deep within me. I tried (ultimately in vain) to please my depraved step family. The bullying by my older step-brother was extreme and I searched for a way to stop him. I was also bullied by a big kid at school. I liked to make comic strips and in my free time, I had created a little strip I called James Bomb. One day at school Harold was starting to bully the other smaller kids and I knew my turn was next. I quickly renamed/redrew my comic into Super Harold. He found this amusing and stopped bullying me. I then tried to begin to find ways to amuse my half-brother to see if this tactic would work on him. I eventually found that cynical/vile/pessimistic/sarcastic comments about others seemed to be his pacifier. For the most part the bullying ceased. Deep inside I despised him, but for the sake of "family" I felt it was my job to keep him entertained. I did this for decades. I grew to realize I was just a coward. I made extreme racial comments while in his presence, yet had friends who were minorities when I was away from him. I knew better yet felt compelled to practice this absolutely dysfunctional "relationship" until I found I could no longer sustain that which is in complete contradiction to my inner beliefs. Cowardice is my name. I am told I will be held accountable for each idle word and I spoke thousands.

I know you had a really bad childhood.
I praise God that you're a saved person...
it could have turned out very differently.

As to the above,,,,
Thanks for giving an example of how we
could be coerced into doing things we normally
would not do.

 

[jasonc]

Charismatics do not change the nature of God.
Speaking in tongues does not change the nature of God.
If we don't pray in the Holy Ghost it does not change the nature of God.
Being drunk in the spirit does not change the nature of God.

it does ,you
dont see God the same.do you really think that God will have mass where its like that in worship and now at this time each time at 0600 ,0700,and 0800 and 1200 and 1800 its time to kneel on the alter ?

no nothing of the sort ,yet how you perceive or its presented God in worship is how you see it.to those who have not been a charismatic the concept of dancing before the lord is strange and foreign and shouting and clapping ,running .yet I highly doubt you will ritually kneel like a catholic with a rrosary at said times .

in anal about my views on the trinity ,I hate book and movie about God being presented In persons as female ,yet It said its not meant to be theology but a cs Lewis type to reach the lost .

I strongly disagree with that bit I know churches who use it .they are trinitarian ,poor disciple ship so please ,yes that will make the Holy Ghost female .


clearly you have not been in charismatic circles ,God is viewed a bit more personable ,you cant post those Gnostic type things,they do ,its just experienced in that worship setting .

it can be out there or not and I don't always see it being biblical but at times it is and well you have to be involved .

you are hung up on that .i guess if the reformed serve a different God then the arminist then well since the 13 colonies were a cult .

I consider it a minor heresy .let God decide and do his saving besides you are shocked about the things I posted .

I Now Better Understand the 'Good German', by Dennis Prager

As my listeners and readers can hopefully attest, I have been on a lifelong quest to understand human nature and human behavior. I am sad to report that I have learned more in the last few years, particularly in 2020, than in any equivalent period of time.

www.creators.com

I read that and felt well man is always depraved ,just needs the chance to show it
these are things i see ,we have snitches here .I know of them .I refuse to snitch on gatherings .I won't .its not me concern .especially given how ravages California is with covid and how harsh the orders are .yet the highest in cases .

I,dont fear death ,it may come today,but we'll so could have that round over me head a few times and artillery landing near me and only seconds after i left .

God is in control .you seem to ignore how depraved even ole christain America is .

Tulsa race massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

there is more then just that .yet well it was more "Christian "then .

hmmm .

I'm,hardly a blm type but racial division in churches and the past is something I find here .God was not worshipped or presented as the God of all races by some .black only churches existed because they weren't welcome to the white ones!

I have posted a photo of one ,here

https://jasoncran.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F640249524442595328

built in 1908 and donated by a white family to the church ,its minister traveled from Georgia and was beaten for ministering by the kkk.he was not welcomed ,the blacks received him.so yes let's just ignore depravity of men .

we are that depraved ,Arminism does by that ,you don't

 

[Hopeful]

Romans 7:7-25
7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.



The Conflict of Two Natures

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


I agree that our behavior has to be by our own choice....
IF it were NOT....WHY would Paul carry on this way?
Should he not have known that he had no control over his actions due to predestination??

Rom 7 isn't a conflict of two natures, but a recollection of a past nature and then it's subsequent destruction before living with a divine nature.
Verse 23's "law of sin" is of the past, as Paul writes of his freedom from it in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus "hath made me free from the law of sin" and death."
Verse 24's "body of this death" was written of in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the "body of sin might be destroyed", that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And then the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[GodsGrace]

it does ,you
dont see God the same.do you really think that God will have mass where its like that in worship and now at this time each time at 0600 ,0700,and 0800 and 1200 and 1800 its time to kneel on the alter ?

no nothing of the sort ,yet how you perceive or its presented God in worship is how you see it.to those who have not been a charismatic the concept of dancing before the lord is strange and foreign and shouting and clapping ,running .yet I highly doubt you will ritually kneel like a catholic with a rrosary at said times .

in anal about my views on the trinity ,I hate book and movie about God being presented In persons as female ,yet It said its not meant to be theology but a cs Lewis type to reach the lost .

I strongly disagree with that bit I know churches who use it .they are trinitarian ,poor disciple ship so please ,yes that will make the Holy Ghost female .


clearly you have not been in charismatic circles ,God is viewed a bit more personable ,you cant post those Gnostic type things,they do ,its just experienced in that worship setting .

it can be out there or not and I don't always see it being biblical but at times it is and well you have to be involved .

you are hung up on that .i guess if the reformed serve a different God then the arminist then well since the 13 colonies were a cult .

I consider it a minor heresy .let God decide and do his saving besides you are shocked about the things I posted .

I Now Better Understand the 'Good German', by Dennis Prager

As my listeners and readers can hopefully attest, I have been on a lifelong quest to understand human nature and human behavior. I am sad to report that I have learned more in the last few years, particularly in 2020, than in any equivalent period of time.

www.creators.com

I read that and felt well man is always depraved ,just needs the chance to show it
these are things i see ,we have snitches here .I know of them .I refuse to snitch on gatherings .I won't .its not me concern .especially given how ravages California is with covid and how harsh the orders are .yet the highest in cases .

I,dont fear death ,it may come today,but we'll so could have that round over me head a few times and artillery landing near me and only seconds after i left .

God is in control .you seem to ignore how depraved even ole christain America is .

Tulsa race massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

there is more then just that .yet well it was more "Christian "then .

hmmm .

I'm,hardly a blm type but racial division in churches and the past is something I find here .God was not worshipped or presented as the God of all races by some .black only churches existed because they weren't welcome to the white ones!

I have posted a photo of one ,here

https://jasoncran.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F640249524442595328

built in 1908 and donated by a white family to the church ,its minister traveled from Georgia and was beaten for ministering by the kkk.he was not welcomed ,the blacks received him.so yes let's just ignore depravity of men .

we are that depraved ,Arminism does by that ,you don't

Too much here Jason.
I can hardly believe some of what you've posted to me.
However, I will answer this today when I have more time.

 

[jasonc]

Too much here Jason.
I can hardly believe some of what you've posted to me.
However, I will answer this today when I have more time.

it's seldom discussed in schools ,the seminole account is from a stare historic archive ,she lived,in what is now my county ,but is mostly mentioned by the former county historical society ,the black church is a museum dedicated to local black history and much of that I know .the schools did mention it at times and well where that sits I went to the schools by it and also blacks there talked about it .

never got why,the schools whose names are for Gifford or clemanss actually don't mention why .

 

[JLB]

Rom 7 isn't a conflict of two natures, but a recollection of a past nature and then it's subsequent destruction before living with a divine nature.
Verse 23's "law of sin" is of the past, as Paul writes of his freedom from it in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus "hath made me free from the law of sin" and death."
Verse 24's "body of this death" was written of in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the "body of sin might be destroyed", that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And then the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Paul teaches about the present reality of sin and it’s desire to bring us into the bondage of slavery to its lustful desires that each born again Christian must overcome. This is the theme of the book of Romans, especially chapters 6-8.


Each born again Christian must first understand this ever present truth and choose to fight and overcome these temptations by the power of the Holy Spirit.


To sum up the conflict and potential outcome of this struggle to reign in dominion over sin that dwells in our flesh, Paul writes —


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Eternal life or eternal damnation are the the two possible outcomes of this conflict.


The person who understands this will ultimately become fruitful in every good work.


The person who doesn’t will continue to fight the truth and those who present it.



But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Matthew 13:23

• he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it...

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 7 isn't a conflict of two natures, but a recollection of a past nature and then it's subsequent destruction before living with a divine nature.
Verse 23's "law of sin" is of the past, as Paul writes of his freedom from it in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus "hath made me free from the law of sin" and death."
Verse 24's "body of this death" was written of in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the "body of sin might be destroyed", that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And then the next verse..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

I agree with all Paul says.
This thread is about free will and whether or not man has a will that is free from coercion.

God call us to be a holy people.
The question is: Are we holy, set apart, because we wish to be in order to serve God...
OR Does God force us, by predestination, to behave as HE wants us to?

Is our will our own...or does God force HIS will on us?