IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[GodsGrace]

I agree with him.

You do not!!!
You'd have to agree that man is imputed with Adam's sin.
(thus infant baptism in the CC - thanks to Augustine).

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Agreed.

Also, I'd like to add something that for_his_glory states many times:
We are predestined,,,,,
But HOW we will be saved is predestined...
NOT who.

If we examine each passage that speaks of predestination we find that this is true.

Also, yes, I'd say that there is a lot of misunderstanding on the phrase "believe in the Lord and you will be saved".
It's not speaking of a mental belief but a heart belief. Believe means something very specific in the Koine Greek language.
This is overlooked by many that feel that just need to "believe" in Jesus and they will be saved...
Believing also includes obeying and, sooner or later, this has to be understood.

wondering
Over the many decades as I have been studying, digging, and searching out God's word, the more I discover the depth, of His truth, and the complexity of His truth, and the extreme difficulty of what God's salvation is truly about, and I continue to have to make changes in my walk and my faith, as I dig deeper, and grow deeper in not only what I learn, but in what I should do action-wise in serving with my new knowledge, and how I continue to try and control my thinking and focus more and more, as God's word demands more and more.
It's a never-ending battle and grind as I, like some, "grapple" with area's of my life that I still "wrestle" with, as we all should from time to time, as we are convicted.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You do not!!!
You'd have to agree that man is imputed with Adam's sin.
(thus infant baptism in the CC - thanks to Augustine).

Thank you for giving me my opinion/.

You're such a good girl.

 

[for_his_glory]

wondering
Over the many decades as I have been studying, digging, and searching out God's word, the more I discover the depth, of His truth, and the complexity of His truth, and the extreme difficulty of what God's salvation is truly about, and I continue to have to make changes in my walk and my faith, as I dig deeper, and grow deeper in not only what I learn, but in what I should do action-wise in serving with my new knowledge, and how I continue to try and control my thinking and focus more and more, as God's word demands more and more.
It's a never-ending battle and grind as I, like some, "grapple" with area's of my life that I still "wrestle" with, as we all should from time to time, as we are convicted.

It's called maturing as we are ever growing leaving that behind what we thought unto a truth we never realized before. When I look back all those years ago to where I am at in my studies and understandings, man, I was wrong in many areas. Thank you Holy Spirit for teaching me truth and that you have given me Spiritual ears to hear.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Also, yes, I'd say that there is a lot of misunderstanding on the phrase "believe in the Lord and you will be saved".
It's not speaking of a mental belief but a heart belief. Believe means something very specific in the Koine Greek language.
This is overlooked by many that feel that just need to "believe" in Jesus and they will be saved...
Believing also includes obeying and, sooner or later, this has to be understood.

wondering
Your so right about the phrase "Believe in the Lord and be saved," and the word "believe."
There are so many levels of learning about salvation and different word meanings including especially when a person gets into studying the original Greek "koine" language of Christ's day, and that there is so much more "HARMONY" in Gods word in the original language that you'd ever find in the modern scriptures modified over and over until they've gotten to us, and then twisted and modified even more in their interpretation or transliteration.

In studying the word "believe," pisteuo, a Greek word that simply is the very beginning of getting to know anyone, including Christ, and in its context of faith or salvation carries no meaning of being saved anywhere.
At best, it's just a word that describes the very beginning of our relationship with Christ, as in meeting someone but know little to nothing about them.
In fact, in the context of knowing Christ, it means to have questions about who Christ is, and not be certain, because all you have is what someone else has told you about Him, and you have no reason to trust what you've been told.
Simply stated, it's not a word of unquestionable belief, but a word of questioning and being unsure.
There are several words that are progressive from the word believing, that will take you to the full level of believing,
like you'd have with a best friend, a BFF, but this word in its context of salvation will never get you there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for giving me my opinion/.

You're such a good girl.

Your welcome.
Anytime you need to know
what you think, just ask me.
???

 

[jasonc]

You do not!!!
You'd have to agree that man is imputed with Adam's sin.
(thus infant baptism in the CC - thanks to Augustine).

and lutheran churches ,Presbyterians .gasp yes they do it

 

[Christ_empowered]

id say 'no.'

adam's sin separated humanity from God. Jesus came to bridge the gap...for the elect.

'many are called, few are chosen...,' not because the elect are 'super special,' but because it requires an act of God to bring sinners in a sin cursed world to The Lord. and...

per The Westminster confession, the elect are...well, part of the elect...thru no merit or lack thereof on their own part. It is "God's good pleasure," if I recall correctly.

"What is the purpose of life?" "To know God, to love God, to honor and obey God, now and for eternity."

the wheat and the tares exist within the 'visible' church till the harvest time. from day 1, Jesus warned of false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing who would 'deceive the very -elect- , if possible...'

I go for predestination because I've seen it play out, already, 8 years into truly Knowing Jesus. some people are raised in sound churches, play church, live like hell while spouting Scripture to condemn others...

then, one reads about Jesus showing Himself -in dreams- to unbelievers in hostile, Christ-hating nations.

i lean Reformed, its just...the way it is, with me...but I like david wilkerson. so, in one of his many visions, he saw an 'end times remnant' that would consist of people from -all- the established churches and the un-churched, too...

while apostasy grows and persecution becomes more of an issue, even -within the established church-, wilkerson sees this 'remnant' as holding fast to Christ and somehow (keep in mind; this vision is pre-internet) fellowshipping with other genuine believers...

so, its not as if even the Pentecostals -- at least, the old school ones, such as Wilkerson -- are always so focused on man's choices and man's actions and man's will to keep on believing that they don't ever, ever acknowledge that salvation is a divine, supernatural work + process. even my older Pentecostal friend will tell me that God spared me because He "knew you would turn to Him," so there's an admission of at least an element of -foreknowledge- from a cradle to grave Pentecostal.

the deal is...this isn't calvin vs rcc vs sbc vs...on and on...

to me, looking around at Christians, those who stayed, those who strayed, those who matured in Him over time...

(re)affirms Scripture (that's the big thing) and also calvin's take on God's work in saving some, leaving others to their/our natural, unrepentant and unregenerate state (significant for me, but far less important than seeing Scripture illuminated by real world observations and experiences).

--finished--

 

[Fastfredy0]

IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?​

Unfortunately, the question lacks definition. This will lead to a variance of answers and understanding of those answers.
So I will supply my definition.

Man = every Homo sapien born since and including Adam and Eve. (Adam and Eve not being technically born of the flesh)
Choose - They are able make a choice that will ensure their unending future life in heaven or hell.
Free - not restricted by an external force
So we have "will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".

The question, as I have interpreted it, is easily proved in the negative if we have empirical evidence that shows:
1) there is any person (man) that is externally hindered (not free) from a decision (choice) that will determine in a future in heaven or hell.

Empirical Evidence curtisy of Dr. Google:

1. The Death rate in 1800 for people under 5 (assumes age of accountability is 5) was 40%, in 1940 it was 24%, 1990 it was 10%, 2016 it was 4%.
2. From 2010-2014, an estimated 25% of global pregnancies (including spontaneous miscarriages) ended in abortion.
3. The 6 million-plus pregnancies in 1996 in the U.S. resulted in 3.9 million births, 1.3 million induced abortions, and almost a million fetal deaths. This means that 62 percent of pregnancies ended in a live birth, 22 percent ended in abortion, and 16 percent ended in a miscarriage or stillbirth. Another source said that abortions are down to 13% while miscarriages are at 20% for a total of 33%.

So, we have billions of persons who had NO CHOICE to make that will be in heaven or hell. Thus, to the question at hand: "is man free to choose" the answer is a resounding an overwhelmingly demonstrable, NO!

Job 14:5 (New International Version) says this … “ A person’s days are determined; you (God) have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.”
.....from this we conclude that God does determines whether or not the billions of person's eluded to in the empirical data above will spend a future destiny is in heaven or hell.

Aside: No need to consider the 1232 N.A.Indian's "freedom to choose" as substantial and overwhelming evidence has already been provided to answer the question of the thread. According to https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf : More than 2 billion people have never heard the salvation message even today. This relates to Romans 10:17

 

[jasonc]

IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?​

Unfortunately, the question lacks definition. This will lead to a variance of answers and understanding of those answers.
So I will supply my definition.

Man = every Homo sapien born since and including Adam and Eve. (Adam and Eve not being technically born of the flesh)
Choose - They are able make a choice that will ensure their unending future life in heaven or hell.
Free - not restricted by an external force
So we have "will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".

The question, as I have interpreted it, is easily proved in the negative if we have empirical evidence that shows:
1) there is any person (man) that is externally hindered (not free) from a decision (choice) that will determine in a future in heaven or hell.

Empirical Evidence curtisy of Dr. Google:

1. The Death rate in 1800 for people under 5 (assumes age of accountability is 5) was 40%, in 1940 it was 24%, 1990 it was 10%, 2016 it was 4%.
2. From 2010-2014, an estimated 25% of global pregnancies (including spontaneous miscarriages) ended in abortion.
3. The 6 million-plus pregnancies in 1996 in the U.S. resulted in 3.9 million births, 1.3 million induced abortions, and almost a million fetal deaths. This means that 62 percent of pregnancies ended in a live birth, 22 percent ended in abortion, and 16 percent ended in a miscarriage or stillbirth. Another source said that abortions are down to 13% while miscarriages are at 20% for a total of 33%.

So, we have billions of persons who had NO CHOICE to make that will be in heaven or hell. Thus, to the question at hand: "is man free to choose" the answer is a resounding an overwhelmingly demonstrable, NO!

Job 14:5 (New International Version) says this … “ A person’s days are determined; you (God) have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.”
.....from this we conclude that God does determines whether or not the billions of person's eluded to in the empirical data above will spend a future destiny is in heaven or hell.

Aside: No need to consider the 1232 N.A.Indian's "freedom to choose" as substantial and overwhelming evidence has already been provided to answer the question of the thread. According to https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf : More than 2 billion people have never heard the salvation message even today. This relates to Romans 10:17

I dont fully agree with you but we can only serve God or Sin.

that's not freedom .many sinners call themselves free from the laws of God ,but yet bind themselves to a habit ,or some other idol,that owns them .be it a not so bad habit of exercise ,traveling or family ,jobs .

 

[GodsGrace]

and lutheran churches ,Presbyterians .gasp yes they do it

Guess they agreed with Augustine!!

 

[jasonc]

Guess they agreed with Augustine!!

Luther wasnt arminist

 

[Fastfredy0]

More FACTUAL EVIDENCE that we are not FREE to decide to believe.

Definition of FREE ... not restricted/affected by an external force(s)
Definition of Believe/Belief/Faith - the consequences of which lead to a person being in heaven after death according to protestants.

Source: Pew Research Center https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/one-in-five-u-s-adults-were-raised-in-interfaith-homes/


Interesting study.
Among children raised in a SINGLE religion:
Among Protestants 79% of the children were protestant, 3% became R.C. and 18% were unaffiliated
Among R.C.s 16% of the children were protestant, 62% became R.C. and 22% were unaffiliated
Among unaffiliated 28% of the children were protestant, 7% became R.C. and 65% were unaffiliated

Conclusion: Empirical evidence denies that possibility that people are unaffected (FREE) from external forces (parental upbringing) in regards to having salvific faith.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

This topic always gets a lot of discussion on the pros and cons.
Studying the bible and this topic over many years will usually help some people come to a sound conclusion, while others never get there.

Younger people think they know everything with little knowledge until they get to our age .
Not much wisdom in the youth except in their own minds ?.

 

[GodsGrace]

Luther wasnt arminist

Right. He was reformed, believed in predestination and so agreed with Augustine.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
Over the many decades as I have been studying, digging, and searching out God's word, the more I discover the depth, of His truth, and the complexity of His truth, and the extreme difficulty of what God's salvation is truly about, and I continue to have to make changes in my walk and my faith, as I dig deeper, and grow deeper in not only what I learn, but in what I should do action-wise in serving with my new knowledge, and how I continue to try and control my thinking and focus more and more, as God's word demands more and more.
It's a never-ending battle and grind as I, like some, "grapple" with area's of my life that I still "wrestle" with, as we all should from time to time, as we are convicted.

I also like to say that the more I learn the more I find out how little I know.
This is true.
But, as I've said somewhere else on this forum,,,,if we're going to be indulging
in some learning...it might as well be learning about God and His word.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Hey guys.
If you study out what the bible says about predestination instead of quoting past "SCHOLARS", you'll find that we aren't predestined by GOD, we are actually predestined by ourselves and our own choices.

Somewhere along a "CROOKED PATH" in the past, this idea got twisted like a lot of other biblical ideas.

 

[jasonc]

Right. He was reformed, believed in predestination and so agreed with Augustine.

no.Jacobus Arminus and that movement was after Luther .

 

[jasonc]

Hey guys.
If you study out what the bible says about predestination instead of quoting past "SCHOLARS", you'll find that we aren't predestined by GOD, we are actually predestined by ourselves and our own choices.

Somewhere along a "CROOKED PATH" in the past, this idea got twisted like a lot of other biblical ideas.

for I know my,plans for you ..

I know you,before you were born.. i guess he Doesnt already know who will actually repent . we are not infinite ,He is.

 

[GodsGrace]

no.Jacobus Arminus and that movement was after Luther .

I know.
Luther was THE ORIGINAL REFORMER.
But I've forgotten what we were discussing!!
Later.