Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[PeterJens]

It doesnt change the context of whom it was written in the first place.


Maybe you could answer the question.


When the scripture in Romans 3:11 or Psalm 14 says there is no one who does good, does that include the righteous who are on the earth?

Do you believe David or Moses or Abraham or Jeremiah or Enoch or Job or Noah were righteous; we’re people who sought God and did what was good?



JLB

I have noticed some build their theology on a set of ideas, which they seek to express through a few verses.
When other ideas are raised, rather than try and question the set of ideas, the mantra is just repeated like it solves the issue.

One member wanted to say we are not yoked to Jesus, having to follow Him and do what He did and does do.
So when I quoted Jesus talking about being yoked to Him and learning from Him they denied this was necessary.
I pointed out the opposite was rebellion and sin and the rejection of Jesus and who he was, which is what they were actually saying.

The next day they agreed you needed to be yoked to Jesus. What this demonstrated to me was simply this guy did not know Jesus no matter what he claimed, just a belief system. Being yoked to Jesus is not like being forced to do something, it is learning from the King, a gift so great it is hard to measure or conceive, that they King of Kings is willing to walk with me and teach me His ways as a friend. What grace and what a gift. Anyone who walks in the light knows this reality, so would never deny its existence or value.

I am calvanist in the sense we are truly lost in sin, but armenian in that God has bent down to open the door for everyone to walk in if they are willing to listen and follow.

The real problem is the idea of spiritual birth, and at what point it happens. I would suggest we really do not know, but we grow to know the seed planted in our hearts has grown into a big tree and affects every aspect of our lives.
A gardener would understand this analogy, lol.

God bless you

 

[JLB]

I am calvanist in the sense we are truly lost in sin, but armenian in that God has bent down to open the door for everyone to walk in if they are willing to listen and follow.

If I were to "label" what you are it would simply be a disciple of Jesus Christ.


A child of God.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesnt change the context of whom it was written in the first place.


Maybe you could answer the question.


When the scripture in Romans 3:11 or Psalm 14 says there is no one who does good, does that include the righteous who are on the earth?

Do you believe David or Moses or Abraham or Jeremiah or Enoch or Job or Noah were righteous; we’re people who sought God and did what was good?



JLB

By nature, none are righteous Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now the men you asked about were not righteous by nature, in themselves, their righteousness is like anyone else of Gods Elect, by and through the Obedience of Christ Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm following the man Paul who wrote under the direction of the Spirit of God and he wrote the following Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I'm following Jesus who said:


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


God loved the WORLD...ALL OF HIS CREATION
God offered His only begotten Son
WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish
but will have everlasting life.


By not understanding, and not wishing to understand,
Romans 3:11, you have created a conflict in the bible message.

YOU must reconcile the conflicting message.

And it's not done BY IGNORING IT.
And repeating Romans 3:11 ad nauseam.

 

[JLB]

By nature, none are righteous Rom 3:9-11

Agreed. None are righteous until we are justified by faith.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Now the men you asked about were not righteous by nature, in themselves, their righteousness is like anyone else of Gods Elect, by and through the Obedience of Christ Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

How is the obedience of Jesus Christ and the benefit of righteousness obtained by us?

 

[PeterJens]

I'm following the man Paul who wrote under the direction of the Spirit of God and he wrote the following Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There are some simple principles of heirarchy of ideas.
In the tree of authority and theology, you can state something within one context which only applies there and is limited by other considerations. Take for instance "Do not murder"
It is in the context of normal life where other interactions are without incident.
Taking an innocents life is not allowed.

But then you have war, you have punishment, you have community action and individual personal judgement.
Boundaries and context matter because they provide the principle around which other things are built.

Another concept is grace and mercy. The parable of the merciful King, suggests though mercy was truly given it can be withdrawn. The merciful King gives mercy to the corrupt servant, but when that servant presumes rights over another without mercy, they get the rights to mercy withdrawn.

So likewise man left alone is lost without hope, and it just gets worse the further they go on.
I have seen bitterness destroy a soul, where in the final years they were just this continuous emotional repetition of anger and resentment at everything. It was like this grew to become who they were. On others who poured their life into their job, which brought them status and respect. When they retired they had made themselves nothing as their job was what they were.

God within this lostness brought scripture and His son, to be a light in the darkness, to show the hope of a different way to those who would listen. It is Gods gift that people hear and feel strangely warmed. Jesus implies in the parable of the seed and sower, it is down to the hardness of their souls, whether they are open or not. It is not something God creates, but rather a consequence of their history and walk.

If one holds God actively creates all situations and works like a puppet master, then this is all illusion, a stage show with no options as to the outcome. But this speaks against God delight in man, ie Job choosing to praise Him, freely.
God delighted in such a thing, while Satan hated it. It disproved his assertion that power was everything, and love was the wrong foundation of existence. The Lord in His grace even is graceful enough to ask Satan his opinion.

It is this point that is foundational to creation, the choice to give praise to the King.

God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

I'm following Jesus who said:


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


God loved the WORLD...ALL OF HIS CREATION
God offered His only begotten Son
WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish
but will have everlasting life.


By not understanding, and not wishing to understand,
Romans 3:11, you have created a conflict in the bible message.

YOU must reconcile the conflicting message.

And it's not done BY IGNORING IT.
And repeating Romans 3:11 ad nauseam.

Theres no contradiction between Paul and Jesus. Jesus would agree with Paul that by nature men dont seek after God Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed. None are righteous until we are justified by faith.





JLB

One is Justified by the Blood/obedience of Christ prior to being Justified by Faith Rom 5:9,19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Another subject however.

 

[brightfame52]

How is the obedience of Jesus Christ and the benefit of righteousness obtained by us?

By imputation. God imputes righteousness without works.

 

[brightfame52]

There are some simple principles of heirarchy of ideas.
In the tree of authority and theology, you can state something within one context which only applies there and is limited by other considerations. Take for instance "Do not murder"
It is in the context of normal life where other interactions are without incident.
Taking an innocents life is not allowed.

But then you have war, you have punishment, you have community action and individual personal judgement.
Boundaries and context matter because they provide the principle around which other things are built.

Another concept is grace and mercy. The parable of the merciful King, suggests though mercy was truly given it can be withdrawn. The merciful King gives mercy to the corrupt servant, but when that servant presumes rights over another without mercy, they get the rights to mercy withdrawn.

So likewise man left alone is lost without hope, and it just gets worse the further they go on.
I have seen bitterness destroy a soul, where in the final years they were just this continuous emotional repetition of anger and resentment at everything. It was like this grew to become who they were. On others who poured their life into their job, which brought them status and respect. When they retired they had made themselves nothing as their job was what they were.

God within this lostness brought scripture and His son, to be a light in the darkness, to show the hope of a different way to those who would listen. It is Gods gift that people hear and feel strangely warmed. Jesus implies in the parable of the seed and sower, it is down to the hardness of their souls, whether they are open or not. It is not something God creates, but rather a consequence of their history and walk.

If one holds God actively creates all situations and works like a puppet master, then this is all illusion, a stage show with no options as to the outcome. But this speaks against God delight in man, ie Job choosing to praise Him, freely.
God delighted in such a thing, while Satan hated it. It disproved his assertion that power was everything, and love was the wrong foundation of existence. The Lord in His grace even is graceful enough to ask Satan his opinion.

It is this point that is foundational to creation, the choice to give praise to the King.

God bless you

Sorry u lost me friend.

 

[PeterJens]

Sorry u lost me friend.

A simple idea is the sabbath rest.
Why does this not apply to believers?
Because Jesus is our sabbath rest. Paul put it in terms of ones conscience. We are free to look at the celebrations in scripture as just that, remembering different aspects of God dealing with man, but they are not binding on us.
He was sensitive to brothers and sisters who felt obligated though, and did not want to encourage them to exercise freedom until they were sure they were following faith.

Lostness can be like an idea which describes the building someone is in. They just see the room, but not its foundation or danger outside. No matter how one describes it, the outside effects completely what is relevant within.
So theology is layered and each layer affects the others. It is so complex to get a balance of the whole takes maturity in Christ and a loving walk.

I was blind to these issues, because until they become part of how one sees, they are not there.
So summaried verses become anchors for many, which just declare insights which are important but only that, highlights.

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

Theres no contradiction between Paul and Jesus. Jesus would agree with Paul that by nature men dont seek after God Rom 3:11

Interesting idea....

Jesus said that He came to seek and to save the lost.
Who are the lost?
How are they saved?


Here are the saved and the lost in Jesus' own words:

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


And here Jesus clearly states who it is that is going to heaven:

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Jesus spoke of the Lawless and the disobedient...
These are the persons that will not see heaven....

He NEVER stated anything even closely resembling reformed teachings.

We are born lost....
Jesus came to save the lost....
We become saved by believing in Him and obeying Him.
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[JLB]

One is Justified by the Blood/obedience of Christ prior to being Justified by Faith Rom 5:9,19

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9

This plainly refers to the blood, Jesus Christ shed for us on the cross. We hear of this through the Gospel, in which we believe it and are justified by faith.


If there was is some other justification for us today, besides hearing and believing the Gospel, please share it with us, so we can understand what you mean.



JLB

 

[JLB]

By imputation. God imputes righteousness without works.

Yes, God certainly imputes righteousness apart from the works of the law, which includes circumcision, the very point Paul is making about those whom God imputes righteousness.

A simple read of the context reveals this.


But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:5-12


Remember, Abraham is a model for us today, concerning those who walk in the obedience of faith; justification by faith.


It goes back to what I have been discussing about the law, or principle of faith. Faith must have obedience in order for it to justify; make a person righteous.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:-9


Here is that same reference to Genesis 12, from Hebrews —


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8



The entire book of Romans is contextually about this principle of faith; the obedience of faith.




JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?

I think some people believe all that "seek and ye shall find" stuff, along with "believe" and "have faith" is just poetic language...

There is two types:

For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But whoever practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be made known that his deeds have been accomplished in God.” John 3:20-21 TLV

Atonement in Calvinism (penal substitution) is an absurdity.

Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to that teaching? I would like to talk with them

 

[brightfame52]

A simple idea is the sabbath rest.
Why does this not apply to believers?
Because Jesus is our sabbath rest. Paul put it in terms of ones conscience. We are free to look at the celebrations in scripture as just that, remembering different aspects of God dealing with man, but they are not binding on us.
He was sensitive to brothers and sisters who felt obligated though, and did not want to encourage them to exercise freedom until they were sure they were following faith.

Lostness can be like an idea which describes the building someone is in. They just see the room, but not its foundation or danger outside. No matter how one describes it, the outside effects completely what is relevant within.
So theology is layered and each layer affects the others. It is so complex to get a balance of the whole takes maturity in Christ and a loving walk.

I was blind to these issues, because until they become part of how one sees, they are not there.
So summaried verses become anchors for many, which just declare insights which are important but only that, highlights.

God bless you

Can you please tell me what this has to do with Rom 3:11 and man naturally doesnt seek/understand the true God .

 

[brightfame52]

Interesting idea....

Jesus said that He came to seek and to save the lost.
Who are the lost?
How are they saved?


Here are the saved and the lost in Jesus' own words:

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


And here Jesus clearly states who it is that is going to heaven:

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Jesus spoke of the Lawless and the disobedient...
These are the persons that will not see heaven....

He NEVER stated anything even closely resembling reformed teachings.

We are born lost....
Jesus came to save the lost....
We become saved by believing in Him and obeying Him.
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I see no discrepancy in Christ seeking and saving that which was lost, understanding that naturally they dont seek Him Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9

This plainly refers to the blood, Jesus Christ shed for us on the cross. We hear of this through the Gospel, in which we believe it and are justified by faith.


If there was is some other justification for us today, besides hearing and believing the Gospel, please share it with us, so we can understand what you mean.



JLB

Those Christ died for were Justified by His Blood/Obedience Rom 5:9,19 and sooner or later they are given Faith to realize it and believe it.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, God certainly imputes righteousness apart from the works of the law, which includes circumcision, the very point Paul is making about those whom God imputes righteousness.

A simple read of the context reveals this.


But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
Romans 4:5-12


Remember, Abraham is a model for us today, concerning those who walk in the obedience of faith; justification by faith.


It goes back to what I have been discussing about the law, or principle of faith. Faith must have obedience in order for it to justify; make a person righteous.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:-9


Here is that same reference to Genesis 12, from Hebrews —


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8



The entire book of Romans is contextually about this principle of faith; the obedience of faith.




JLB

He imputes righteousness apart from works, thats inclusive of all works. Rom 4:6

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

The righteousness is imputed in exchange for their sins being imputed to Christ 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Made the righteousness of God in Christ by imputation. He was made sin/sin offering by imputation.