Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[Walpole]

God always makes the first move.
God reveals Himself to man.
God breathed His spirit into Adam....
We have the breath of God within us...
Some call it the God-shaped hole that only God can fill.
Men instinctively know there is a higher being than themselves,,,,
this even before the bible is read.

Did you ever consider that Jesus was sought after?
He did not go to every person to cure them....
they came looking for Him....
If Jesus represents God...can we not say that He followed the ways of God (Father)?

Jesus was sought to change water into wine even before His time came...
John 2:1-11

A Royal Official begged Jesus to cure his dying son.
John 4:46-47

Jesus was told that Peter's mother was ill --- He went to cure her.
Mark 1:30-31

Jesus cured a leper who sought Him and begged to be healed.
Mark 1:40-45

A centurion sought Jesus to cure his servant.
Matthew 8:5-13

Jesus cures the paralitic that was brought to Him by the friends.
Matthew 9:1-8

A synagogue leader sought Jesus to bring his daughter back to life.
Matthew 9:18-26

A woman with an issue of blood sought Jesus and touched Him and was healed.
Luke 8:43-48


There are many more examples like this.
People are very able to seek Jesus...
Jesus is God.
People are very able to seek God...
It is in man's heart to seek....
Jesus said that if we seek, we will find.
Matthew 7:7
"...seek and you will find...."

Great post!

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not asking for that, I am looking for a church that I can talk with. Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to the PSA doctrine?

Yes, I do.
It's the Catholic Church.

The CC is a very solid church....
I do not accept all their doctrine and so I cannot call myself a Catholic.
OTOH,,,I very much like a lot of their teaching and can accept some of its authority
on scripture. Although not everyone there agrees on everything...they are much more
united than we Protestants that divide and have created a myriad of denominations.

Pick one...speak to one of the priests...make sure you like him.
When I moved to Italy, I did this and found an extremely nice priest
with which I could speak to about anything...and he wasn't the only one.
Each of them knew of my Protestant beliefs and yet still accepted me as
a lover of Jesus.

The rest is up to you.


P.S. If you read the article,,,you'll find that there is another atonement theory,
the Satisfaction Theory, that is a little like the Penal Substitution, but it does not
involve the wrath of God, but the justice of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yet Cornelius seeks God, is righteous, and God is pleased by his prayers and almsgiving to the poor!

Agreed, Cornelius did seek God. But why; what was the CAUSE. I can put a match under your finger and you will move it away. Yes, you did move your finger, but I was the CAUSE. Was it because God caused Cornelius to seek Him because He was chosen by God (Reformed view point) ... or Cornelius did via "free will" (whatever that is, most people wouldn't even define it)

IMO you must go to other scriptures to find the cause of salvation, rather than state the effect and substitute a cause that fits your understanding as you have done with the story of Cornelius.

Consider the following conversions / selections

• Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen,
• Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
• All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,
• Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
• Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
• Romans 10:24 “I was found of them that sought Me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not for Me.” He speaks this with reference to the Gentiles
• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men)
• 1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God” ... God's will, not man's
• Jacob I love and Esau I hated (before they were born God selected )

When babies die, are they too the CAUSE of their eternal destiny?????
Define FREE WILL

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed, Cornelius did seek God. But why; what was the CAUSE. I can put a match under your finger and you will move it away. Yes, you did move your finger, but I was the CAUSE. Was it because God caused Cornelius to seek Him because He was chosen by God (Reformed view point) ... or Cornelius did via "free will" (whatever that is, most people wouldn't even define it)

IMO you must go to other scriptures to find the cause of salvation, rather than state the effect and substitute a cause that fits your understanding as you have done with the story of Cornelius.

Consider the following conversions / selections

• Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen,
• Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
• All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,
• Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
• Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
• Romans 10:24 “I was found of them that sought Me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not for Me.” He speaks this with reference to the Gentiles
• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men)
• 1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God” ... God's will, not man's
• Jacob I love and Esau I hated (before they were born God selected )

When babies die, are they too the CAUSE of their eternal destiny?????
Define FREE WILL

I wrote you a whole page on free will that was deleted due to derailment of O.P.
I'm too tired to rewrite all my thoughts.

I leave you to Walpole but I would love to understand your last paragrpah.
What does a baby that dies have to do with anything?

Being a calvinist, you should know that the baby will go where God wants him to go....right?

Was this baby not predestined before time began?

Which brings up an interesting point.....

If a person dies BEFORE God regenerates them so they could believe....
do they go to heaven?

How does that work out?
They were predestined BEFORE TIME BEGAN, right?
So they would necessarily have to go to heaven even if THEY ARE NOT BORN AGAIN...

Calvinism sure is mixed up.....
Please explain the above to those of us that can't understand it....

 

[Fastfredy0]

What does a baby that dies have to do with anything?

The topic is:

Is man not really capable of seeking God?​

Since babies, the aborted, anyone classified as within the 'age of accountability' fits the definition of MAN which is the part of the topic at hand ... I think we should not ignore 25% - 50% of the population of men. (25% - 50% rough est. from father Google)

Having shown babies are relevant to the question I pose the observations:

1. 25% - 50% of the population is NOT CAPABLE of SEEKING God. I don't think there is an argument against this premise ... would love to hear one though for the entertainment value
2. Assuming #1 to be true, it is interesting that we all agree that God selects is significant proportion of humanity to go to hell/heaven; yet some of us (not me) think God uses a different criteria for others.

Now, for those who have reached the age of accountability .... 2 billion have not heard the gospel according to https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf
Faith cometh by hearing and since faith is a prerequisite for salvation, those 2 billion are doomed to hell assuming they don't hear the gospel. Odds were even worse in the past. So, these people too ARE NOT CAPABLE OF SEEKING THE GOSPEL in any practical sense.

So, I think I've given empirical evidence to show most people ARE NOT CAPABLE OF SEEKING THE GOSPEL.

Unless others wish to dispute these claims, the discussion is over for let's say 60-80% of mankind ... (admittedly, the 60-80% is an estimate)

Calvinism sure is mixed up.....

*giggles* you're Arminian bias is showing ... this was predestined to be. *smiles*

 

[Walpole]

Agreed, Cornelius did seek God. But why; what was the CAUSE. I can put a match under your finger and you will move it away. Yes, you did move your finger, but I was the CAUSE. Was it because God caused Cornelius to seek Him because He was chosen by God (Reformed view point) ... or Cornelius did via "free will" (whatever that is, most people wouldn't even define it)

IMO you must go to other scriptures to find the cause of salvation, rather than state the effect and substitute a cause that fits your understanding as you have done with the story of Cornelius.

Consider the following conversions / selections

• Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen,
• Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.
• All of Israel will be saved in the future. This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,
• Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
• Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
• Romans 10:24 “I was found of them that sought Me not, I was made manifest unto them that asked not for Me.” He speaks this with reference to the Gentiles
• Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men)
• 1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God” ... God's will, not man's
• Jacob I love and Esau I hated (before they were born God selected )

When babies die, are they too the CAUSE of their eternal destiny?????
Define FREE WILL

Cornelius is unregenerate! He does not believe in Jesus. He has not heard the Gospel. He wants to worship St. Peter. Yet he pleases God. He is righteous!

Acts 10
22They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.”

Cornelius wasn't dragged. He wasn't an unwilling person as Calvinist theology would have you believe. We clearly see St. Peter teaching CONTRARY to Calvinism when he explains what happened with Cornelius in the very next chapter.

---> Cornelius did that which Calvinism claims is impossible.


Not sure what the non-sequitur about babies is about.


As for free will, it is the power to choose to do good or to choose to do evil.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Cornelius is unregenerate! He does not believe in Jesus. He has not heard the Gospel. He wants to worship St. Peter. Yet he pleases God. He is righteous!

Apparently, you missed the theme of my post. I will try one more time.
The question: Is man not really capable of seeking God?
Your answer: Yes, Cornelius did of his own free will
My response: The Cornelius story does not state the cause of Cornelius attitude or seeking. It could be 'free will' as you assume, or God as I assume.
..... then I gave 6ish examples where Scripture shows God was the cause that you ignored

.... there, as simple as I can state it. Where in the Cornelius story did it say God was NOT the cause of Cornelius seeking GOD, where? Why are my examples not valid for showing God caused those I listed to seek him?

Not sure what the non-sequitur about babies is about.

See post #246

As for free will, it is the power to choose to do good or to choose to do evil.

We all believe that ... lol. When it come to believing salvifically it is NOT possible not to chose. The definition has no practical meaning. Put some 'meat' on it.
Where did this power to believe salvifically come from (what is the CAUSE)????
Is there an internal roulette wheel in your head? Your decision was an effect. What was/is the cause of that effect??

 

[Serving Zion]

How would you reconcile this with the Old Testament type of the scape goat?

I wouldn't even try to do that, and why should I?

"For whenever the priesthood is altered, out of necessity an alteration of law also takes place."
(Hebrews 7:12 TLV)

and

"for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
(Hebrews 10:4 TLV)

"For on the one hand, a former requirement is set aside because of its weakness and ineffectiveness—for Torah made nothing perfect. But on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Moreover, it was not without a sworn oath. (Others indeed have become kohanim without a sworn oath, but He with an oath—sworn by the One who said to Him, “Adonai has sworn and will not change His mind, ‘You are a kohen forever.’”) How much more then has Yeshua become the guarantee of a better covenant."
(Hebrews 7:18-22 TLV)

I don’t really trust any of these man made doctrines

I still haven't found any one of them that perfectly puts it, though some of them bear a resemblance to the proper scriptural teching. At the basis of them all is the question: "Why did Jesus have to die?" and yet none of them acknowledge the plain answer, that is found in Matthew 21:38-39. It's all because of their intellectual dishonesty (the cross is foolishness to them), that they can't bear to think that God had insufficient power to stop the crucifixion when the answer of man's tyranny points toward that conclusion. But that's the reality of it, and one has to wonder why God chose to let Jesus go and keep a world full of depravity... that's why they theorise and postulate and have to construct big complicated systems leading to infant baptisms etc.

 

[Serving Zion]

Please read this post...

---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...lly-capable-of-seeking-god.85385/post-1606874

Ah, I see, you are suggesting that the Catholic Church doesn't teach PSA. Well I might have to go and enquire about that, because I have always seen that PSA is the underlying reason for the doctrine that teaches Inherited Sin. I really don't think I'm going to find sensible answers though when I start talking to them about that, but let's see. My past experiences of the Catholic church has been rather disheartening.

 

[JLB]

As has been pointed out, Romans 3:11 is QUOTING David’s Psalm 14. The words, “As it is written…” in verse 10 should have clued you in. In Psalm 14, which St. Paul again is quoting, David states it is the fool who says there is no God, who does not do good and does not seek.

If St. Paul was not quoting David but instead meant in absolute terms that man does not seek God (as implied by the Calvinists), he would be contradicting his very own teaching, as just one chapter prior he says this to the Romans...

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." - Romans 2:7

Not only would he be contradicting his own words and the words of Scripture, but he would be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him. From the beginning, man has sought God, even those who were not privileged with receiving His revelation, i.e. the Greek philosophers. It is only when man acts contrary to his nature and his reason is clouded by his sin does God seem hard to find.


As for the Scriptures, there are too many to list which affirm man seeks God. Both the Old Testament and New are full of them. It should also be noted the Jews, to whom God first revealed Himself, do not believe man is totally depraved and thus incapable of seeking God.

Here are a few verses encouraging man to seek God...

“But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.” - Deuteronomy 4:29

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.” - Proverbs 8:17:

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” - Jeremiah 29:13

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” - Matthew 6:33

“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.’” - Acts 17: 26-28


Now I would like to use the example of the pagan gentile Cornelius as described by St. Luke to put the death knell into the Calvinist position.

Acts 10
1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 “Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6 he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” 7 When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8 and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa…

24 On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29“That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.” 30 Cornelius said, “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 ‘Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.’ 33 “So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Did you catch that?

• Cornelius is NOT a believer of Jesus Christ (that happens later)
• Cornelius is NOT regenerated (that happens later)
• Cornelius has NOT even heard the Gospel (that happens later)
• Cornelius has NOT received the Holy Spirit (that happens later)
• Cornelius tries to worship St. Peter

Yet Cornelius seeks God, is righteous, and God is pleased by his prayers and almsgiving to the poor!

St. Luke continues:

Acts 10
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

---> You can't get welcomed (or accepted depending on your translation) unless you are a stranger to it. You can't get welcomed (accepted) if you are elect prior in time!

Good post.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I wouldn't even try to do that, and why should I?

"For whenever the priesthood is altered, out of necessity an alteration of law also takes place."
(Hebrews 7:12 TLV)

and

"for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
(Hebrews 10:4 TLV)

"For on the one hand, a former requirement is set aside because of its weakness and ineffectiveness—for Torah made nothing perfect. But on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Moreover, it was not without a sworn oath. (Others indeed have become kohanim without a sworn oath, but He with an oath—sworn by the One who said to Him, “Adonai has sworn and will not change His mind, ‘You are a kohen forever.’”) How much more then has Yeshua become the guarantee of a better covenant."
(Hebrews 7:18-22 TLV)

I not saying we should reconcile the law of Moses, so that it somehow has the same purpose as the the cross.

Im definitely with you on this.


I was suggesting the goat that was sacrificed for the sins of the people, would “pay the price”, the punishment that was due for their sins, in that their punishment, which was death, would be upon the innocent animal rather than the people who were actually guilty, thus foreshadowing Christ and His sacrifice for ur sins.


The penalty for our sins was laid upon Him.





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

It is called the "Penalty Substitution Atonement" doctrine because it teaches that the penalty for our sin is substituted by the punishment of Jesus "in our place". It does a wonderful job of turning the character of God into an irrational tyrant and the proponents of the doctrine flee to the extremes of folly when they are pressed to justify their views in light of common sense.

If you read the article that wondering has given, it shows quite well how the development of the doctrine has evolved over time. It says that Anselm is mostly responsible for having introduced the view that God cannot forgive without some sort of satisfaction for the debt accrued by a sinner, and that is the view that is inconsistent with the character of God (eg: Proverbs 17:15, 1 Corinthians 13:5-6). That's why I am looking for a church that has not committed itself to that doctrine (Proverbs 28:4-5).

After reading the summary of Christian theories on Christs work it brought into focus where I have come to.
Jesus had to die, to take the worst that could be done to Him and to say to the Father, "forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"
Jesus could forgive sins, by saying your sins are forgiven. He delegated this authority to the apostles.

By Jesus taking the worst man could throw at Him and forgiving them, if we can accept we also are part of that crowd, we too are forgiven. By being part of the crowd we accept we need to walk the way of Jesus which He demonstrated, in reality there is no other way.

Our calling is to walk as Jesus walked. From heart to skin, love, clarity, openness, purity and truth, is Gods way.
The group we walk with, just need to be willing to learn to speak in these ways. The problem transcends our circumstances or those around us, it is the light shinning from within that matters.

It is clear until people have open hearts and are prepared to deal with their direction in life and how they love and care for others, all the theology in the world adds up to nothing. These forums declare often how at a simple level, accepting Jesus asks us to be open, is not accepted as the beginning place of walking with Jesus, or even walking with Jesus is bring a believer. I spent one year, about, pointing out to a church leader on a forum their venom mouth and closed heart testified of something very different about the reality of Christ in their lives. In the end they did repent, but I do not know to what degree. It seems often these realities matter more than theology. Without the right heart things will never be clear.

God bless you

 

[JLB]

I still haven't found any one of them that perfectly puts it, though some of them bear a resemblance to the proper scriptural teching.

Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

What do we need to do, to appropriate His righteousness?

• Believe the Gospel?
• Nothing: The Holy Spirit does it for us sovereignly?

JLB

I already stated that those who have been made righteous by the obedience of one Rom 5:19 will sooner or later be given Faith to apprehend it, hence Rom 5;1

 

[JLB]

I already stated that those who have been made righteous by the obedience of one Rom 5:19 will sooner or later be given Faith to apprehend it, hence Rom 5;1

I read what you stated.


Which is why I asked you the question in the first place.

You stated “sooner or later those who have been made righteous” will be given faith to apprehend it.


How can someone be righteous and not know it; how does this righteousness come about without their interaction or involvement of hearing and believing the Gospel?





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

How can someone be righteous and not know it;

Easily. The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born. One doesnt have to be born for Christ to have died for their sins. If Christ died for ones sins, they have righteousness imputed to them 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So a person that Christ died for, doesnt know they have righteousness imputed to them, but they will know once God gives them Faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

After reading the summary of Christian theories on Christs work it brought into focus where I have come to.
Jesus had to die, to take the worst that could be done to Him and to say to the Father, "forgive them for they do not know what they are doing"
Jesus could forgive sins, by saying your sins are forgiven. He delegated this authority to the apostles.

By Jesus taking the worst man could throw at Him and forgiving them, if we can accept we also are part of that crowd, we too are forgiven. By being part of the crowd we accept we need to walk the way of Jesus which He demonstrated, in reality there is no other way.

Our calling is to walk as Jesus walked. From heart to skin, love, clarity, openness, purity and truth, is Gods way.
The group we walk with, just need to be willing to learn to speak in these ways. The problem transcends our circumstances or those around us, it is the light shinning from within that matters.

It is clear until people have open hearts and are prepared to deal with their direction in life and how they love and care for others, all the theology in the world adds up to nothing. These forums declare often how at a simple level, accepting Jesus asks us to be open, is not accepted as the beginning place of walking with Jesus, or even walking with Jesus is bring a believer. I spent one year, about, pointing out to a church leader on a forum their venom mouth and closed heart testified of something very different about the reality of Christ in their lives. In the end they did repent, but I do not know to what degree. It seems often these realities matter more than theology. Without the right heart things will never be clear.

God bless you

Here we go with a small derail..but it can't be helped....

You state above that Jesus passed the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles.
Do you realize that this is the reason the CC offers confession to a priest?
It is based on this idea.... John 20:23
Comment?

 

[GodsGrace]

jlb



Easily. The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born. One doesnt have to be born for Christ to have died for their sins. If Christ died for ones sins, they have righteousness imputed to them 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So a person that Christ died for, doesnt know they have righteousness imputed to them, but they will know once God gives them Faith.

But then,,,,according to you....
they would be saved even at birth BEFORE receiving this faith....

And how could that be if it's FAITH that saves us??

Ephesians 2:8-9
IT IS BY GRACE...THROUGH THE INSTRUMENT OF FAITH THAT WE HAVE BEEN SAVED....


Something is wrong with this concept of yours.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You state above that Jesus passed the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles.
Do you realize that this is the reason the CC offers confession to a priest?
It is based on this idea.... John 20:23
Comment?

Interesting ... the verse always gave me pause ... didn't seem to fit with other scriptures (Matt. 9:2-7; Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21-26)
Tom Constable says concerning John 20:23 ... The second part of each conditional clause in this verse is in the passive voice and the perfect tense in the Greek text. The passive voice indicates that someone has already done the forgiving or retaining. That person must be God,

Greek is Greek to me (bad pun) ... but his Greek explanation would make John 20:23 fit with Matt. 9:2-7; Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21-26 so I want to trust Constable's explanation.

.... on the other hand, I could become a priest and absolve Wondering of her sins on the condition that she did penance and treated me nicely and became 'reformed' ... hmmm ... which way to go .. tough one

 

[JLB]

Easily. The Death/Obedience of Christ made many righteous before they were born.

Why would someone need to be righteous who had never been born; who had never had the opportunity to sin?