Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

I see no discrepancy in Christ seeking and saving that which was lost, understanding that naturally they dont seek Him Rom 3:11

Oh for goodness sakes brightfame.
You didn't even bother to answer any of my questions.
Are you UNABLE to??

Why don't you explain to us here :

1. WHO ARE THE LOST?
2. HOW DO THEY GET SAVED?

What's the problem with the following verses that are said by JESUS?
Do you not agree with them?

Matthew 7:24-27
Matthew 7:21
John 3:16
John 3:36

How about exegeting the above?
Or don't you know how?

 

[GodsGrace]

Those Christ died for were Justified by His Blood/Obedience Rom 5:9,19 and sooner or later they are given Faith to realize it and believe it.

So faith has to be given before believing is possible?

Where does it state this in scripture?

Do you not agree with BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED....

Believing comes first...
salvation (faith) comes second....not the other way around.

Acts 16:30
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

 

[GodsGrace]

He imputes righteousness apart from works, thats inclusive of all works. Rom 4:6

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

The righteousness is imputed in exchange for their sins being imputed to Christ 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Made the righteousness of God in Christ by imputation. He was made sin/sin offering by imputation.

Who is the US in your above verse?

 

[JLB]

Those Christ died for were Justified by His Blood/Obedience Rom 5:9,19 and sooner or later they are given Faith to realize it and believe it.

They way we are justified (made righteous) by His blood, is through believing and obeying the Gospel message.


Not some “other” way, apart from the Gospel, such as the “Spirit sovereignly saves us or “sovereignly justifies us“ before we hear the Gospel and believe it. This is downright unbiblical.




Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9


“Justified by His blood” is the message of the Gospel, that we must first believe, in order to be saved; born again, regenerated, and or “made alive in Christ”.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

There is two types:

For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But whoever practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be made known that his deeds have been accomplished in God.” John 3:20-21 TLV

Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to that teaching? I would like to talk with them

Penal Substitution came about at the time of the reformation.
This shows a wrathful God that wants satisfaction...much like throwing people into volcanoes to subdue the gods.

Before the reformation, there were other atonement theories that made a lot of sense.
There are at least 7 theories that I know of...
Perhaps you could google this and find out something about the atonement?

The very first theory to be recognized by the Early Church was the
Moral Influence Theory
The Christus Victor and Ransom Theory are also very old and make a lot of sense.

You could start here:

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[brightfame52]

Oh for goodness sakes brightfame.
You didn't even bother to answer any of my questions.
Are you UNABLE to??

Why don't you explain to us here :

1. WHO ARE THE LOST?
2. HOW DO THEY GET SAVED?

What's the problem with the following verses that are said by JESUS?
Do you not agree with them?

Matthew 7:24-27
Matthew 7:21
John 3:16
John 3:36

How about exegeting the above?
Or don't you know how?

Its not necessary to answer a bunch of questions, just simply believe what the scripture says because its not going to change, which is man naturally under sin doesnt seek after God nor understand God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

So faith has to be given before believing is possible?

Where does it state this in scripture?

Do you not agree with BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED....

Believing comes first...
salvation (faith) comes second....not the other way around.

Acts 16:30
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Yes Faith is the Gift of God, its given to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[brightfame52]

Who is the US in your above verse?

1 Cor 1:1

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

 

[brightfame52]

They way we are justified (made righteous) by His blood, is through believing and obeying the Gospel message.


Not some “other” way, apart from the Gospel, such as the “Spirit sovereignly saves us or “sovereignly justifies us“ before we hear the Gospel and believe it. This is downright unbiblical.




Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9


“Justified by His blood” is the message of the Gospel, that we must first believe, in order to be saved; born again, regenerated, and or “made alive in Christ”.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



JLB

They were made righteous by the obedience of one Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[JLB]

They were made righteous by the obedience of one Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

What do we need to do, to appropriate His righteousness?

• Believe the Gospel?
• Nothing: The Holy Spirit does it for us sovereignly?

JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Penal Substitution came about at the time of the reformation.
This shows a wrathful God that wants satisfaction...much like throwing people into volcanoes to subdue the gods.

Before the reformation, there were other atonement theories that made a lot of sense.
There are at least 7 theories that I know of...
Perhaps you could google this and find out something about the atonement?

The very first theory to be recognized by the Early Church was the
Moral Influence Theory
The Christus Victor and Ransom Theory are also very old and make a lot of sense.

You could start here:

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

I'm not asking for that, I am looking for a church that I can talk with. Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to the PSA doctrine?

 

[JLB]

I'm not asking for that, I am looking for a church that I can talk with. Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to the PSA doctrine?

What is PSA doctrine?


I follow the doctrine of Christ.





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Can you please tell me what this has to do with Rom 3:11 and man naturally doesnt seek/understand the true God .

You remind me of a high school student, who believes what they know defines everything.
The difficulty with the totally depraved theological position is humanism, and caring communities which have no input from christian faith. It is also clear that young children have a real sense of caring and guilt when things go wrong.

There is an ironic reality within calvanism. If everything is defined by God beforehand, why have any interactions with people or try and persuade them one way or the other. If the outcome has predetermined and the level of argument etc or sharing makes no difference why even argue the position. By participating and arguing or discussing anything means fundamentally one believes we have choice and need to learn how to make good decisions.

It is like the atheist who believes there is not purpose to life, yet will participate in relationships and work as if it has a purpose. This actually means their belief system helps them undermine others positions, but they validate themselves through their belief in the value of relationships and work, even though verbally they deny this.

Determinist materialists who claim there is no free will, equally claim they are just part of system which they cannot influence or direct. They will though participate in mass public discussions and believe spreading nihilism has a purpose because chaos is so superior to love and responsibility to our fellow man. What really drives them is their anger at others positions and how they feel about them.

So my point is simple. Without grace man would be lost, God is the prime mover. But we still have free will and can choose how we walk, which is what Jesus calls us to. If you agree with this, Amen, if not, God bless you

 

[Serving Zion]

What is PSA doctrine?


I follow the doctrine of Christ.





JLB

It is called the "Penalty Substitution Atonement" doctrine because it teaches that the penalty for our sin is substituted by the punishment of Jesus "in our place". It does a wonderful job of turning the character of God into an irrational tyrant and the proponents of the doctrine flee to the extremes of folly when they are pressed to justify their views in light of common sense.

If you read the article that wondering has given, it shows quite well how the development of the doctrine has evolved over time. It says that Anselm is mostly responsible for having introduced the view that God cannot forgive without some sort of satisfaction for the debt accrued by a sinner, and that is the view that is inconsistent with the character of God (eg: Proverbs 17:15, 1 Corinthians 13:5-6). That's why I am looking for a church that has not committed itself to that doctrine (Proverbs 28:4-5).

 

[JLB]

It is called the "Penalty Substitution Atonement" doctrine because it teaches that the penalty for our sin is substituted by the punishment of Jesus "in our place". It does a wonderful job of turning the character of God into an irrational tyrant and the proponents of the doctrine flee to the extremes of folly when they are pressed to justify their views in light of common sense.

If you read the article that wondering has given, it shows quite well how the development of the doctrine has evolved over time. It says that Anselm is mostly responsible for having introduced the view that God cannot forgive without some sort of satisfaction for the debt accrued by a sinner, and that is the view that is inconsistent with the character of God (eg: Proverbs 17:15, 1 Corinthians 13:5-6). That's why I am looking for a church that has not committed itself to that doctrine (Proverbs 28:4-5).

How would you reconcile this with the Old Testament type of the scape goat?


Personally, I don’t use the term “atonement” in association with the sacrifice of Jesus.

Atonement in the Old Testament means to “cover over”, as pitch on a roof covers.


The blood of Jesus cleanses us of of sin, in which our sins are taken away.


For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4


Im not saying I disagree with you, just discussing this PSA doctrine.


I don’t really trust any of these man made doctrines.





JLB

 

[Walpole]

As has been pointed out, Romans 3:11 is QUOTING David’s Psalm 14. The words, “As it is written…” in verse 10 should have clued you in. In Psalm 14, which St. Paul again is quoting, David states it is the fool who says there is no God, who does not do good and does not seek.

If St. Paul was not quoting David but instead meant in absolute terms that man does not seek God (as implied by the Calvinists), he would be contradicting his very own teaching, as just one chapter prior he says this to the Romans...

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." - Romans 2:7

Not only would he be contradicting his own words and the words of Scripture, but he would be contradicting our very nature. We are creatures made in the image and likeness of our Creator. Hence man has an intellect and a will. He can thus know and love. Man is therefore a creature attuned to seeking causes and ends, and since God is necessarily the cause and the end of man, it is natural that man would seek Him. From the beginning, man has sought God, even those who were not privileged with receiving His revelation, i.e. the Greek philosophers. It is only when man acts contrary to his nature and his reason is clouded by his sin does God seem hard to find.


As for the Scriptures, there are too many to list which affirm man seeks God. Both the Old Testament and New are full of them. It should also be noted the Jews, to whom God first revealed Himself, do not believe man is totally depraved and thus incapable of seeking God.

Here are a few verses encouraging man to seek God...

“But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.” - Deuteronomy 4:29

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.” - Proverbs 8:17:

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.” - Jeremiah 29:13

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” - Matthew 6:33

“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.’” - Acts 17: 26-28


Now I would like to use the example of the pagan gentile Cornelius as described by St. Luke to put the death knell into the Calvinist position.

Acts 10
1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 “Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6 he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” 7 When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8 and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa…

24 On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27 As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29“That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.” 30 Cornelius said, “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 ‘Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.’ 33 “So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Did you catch that?

• Cornelius is NOT a believer of Jesus Christ (that happens later)
• Cornelius is NOT regenerated (that happens later)
• Cornelius has NOT even heard the Gospel (that happens later)
• Cornelius has NOT received the Holy Spirit (that happens later)
• Cornelius tries to worship St. Peter

Yet Cornelius seeks God, is righteous, and God is pleased by his prayers and almsgiving to the poor!

St. Luke continues:

Acts 10
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

---> You can't get welcomed (or accepted depending on your translation) unless you are a stranger to it. You can't get welcomed (accepted) if you are elect prior in time!

 

[Walpole]

I'm not asking for that, I am looking for a church that I can talk with. Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to the PSA doctrine?

Please read this post...

---> https://christianforums.net/Fellows...lly-capable-of-seeking-god.85385/post-1606874

 

[Walpole]

There is two types:

For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But whoever practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be made known that his deeds have been accomplished in God.” John 3:20-21 TLV

Do you know the name of any denomination that does not hold to that teaching? I would like to talk with them

Penal substitution is a Protestant belief. Catholics and Orthodox do not hold it.

The problem with this Calvinist doctrine is Christological (and hence anti-Trinitarian) at its root. If God poured out his wrath on Christ, then He is divided against himself (e.g. hating his own Word). Only an Arian or Nestorian understanding of Christ would even make this acceptable.

The Christian understanding of the passion is it is the greatest act of love, not wrath. Calvin's doctrine, with God pouring out his wrath and rage on his naughty Son, stands in stark contrast to the Christian understanding of the act of Christ offering of Himself to the Father out of love.

---> "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:18)

---> "...and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

---> "...how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God." (Heb 9:14)

 

[Walpole]

ETA: from post #237

We see Cornelius doing what Calvinism claims is impossible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Seems to be evidence of @brightpoint's view point. The people did not seek God of their own volition and as a consequence would have been destroyed. But, It was God that sought them by sending Jonah. God did the seeking. Maybe you believe they would repented on their own if Jonah had not come??? ... this would compliment your thesis, that men seek God ...but this scripture does not support that.

Aside: whether this story of Ninivah was repentance leading to salvation is not stated in scripture.
Aside 2: men do seek God, but only when God causes them to.
Cold in texas...no electricity for 17 hours now

God always makes the first move.
God reveals Himself to man.
God breathed His spirit into Adam....
We have the breath of God within us...
Some call it the God-shaped hole that only God can fill.
Men instinctively know there is a higher being than themselves,,,,
this even before the bible is read.

Did you ever consider that Jesus was sought after?
He did not go to every person to cure them....
they came looking for Him....
If Jesus represents God...can we not say that He followed the ways of God (Father)?

Jesus was sought to change water into wine even before His time came...
John 2:1-11

A Royal Official begged Jesus to cure his dying son.
John 4:46-47

Jesus was told that Peter's mother was ill --- He went to cure her.
Mark 1:30-31

Jesus cured a leper who sought Him and begged to be healed.
Mark 1:40-45

A centurion sought Jesus to cure his servant.
Matthew 8:5-13

Jesus cures the paralitic that was brought to Him by the friends.
Matthew 9:1-8

A synagogue leader sought Jesus to bring his daughter back to life.
Matthew 9:18-26

A woman with an issue of blood sought Jesus and touched Him and was healed.
Luke 8:43-48


There are many more examples like this.
People are very able to seek Jesus...
Jesus is God.
People are very able to seek God...
It is in man's heart to seek....
Jesus said that if we seek, we will find.
Matthew 7:7
"...seek and you will find...."