Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is man not really capable of seeking God?

is there at least an element of foreknowledge in the RCC or arminianism?
I don't know about Jacob Arminius CE.
I'm not catholic but I do know the doctrine.

Here is what the CC believes about predestination,,,and, l must say, it is
what every other denomination believes except the reformed.

Predestination does exist in the bible.
God did predestine. He knew Adam would fail because GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING...He is omniscient.
God sees the past, present and future all at the same time...He knows everything that will happen.

His KNOWING what will happen does not mean that He CAUSES it to happen.
Some find this difficult to understand.

So, getting back to Adam....
Since God knew that Adam would sin and fail....He PREDESTINED HOW persons would be saved.
This is by all the ways that you know.
The sacrificial death of Jesus and that those that believe in Him will be saved and by obedience
to God's commands.

So the predestination,,,if you read very carefully, is always about HOW salvation will happen..
and not WHO will be saved.

Also, we need to say that God always makes the first move.
HE reveals Himself to us...
and we can respond of our own free will.

If you pick a predestination verse, we could go over it.

For instance, Ephesians 1:4-5 is very popular.
It says
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


One has to pay attention to what it says...it does not support the calvinist teachings.
God chose us In Jesus, to be In Jesus, before the foundation of the world (Genesis 3:15)
God chose us to be holy and blameless before Him.
In love God PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus....
He predestined us through Jesus to be His sons.....
He did not predestine WHO would be a son but only that the person would be a son THROUGH JESUS.

This is so simple to see that it staggers me that anyone could accept calvinism from verses such as the above.

I love you as a brother in Christ no matter what you believe...
but believing what is correct is so beautiful and edifying...
the whole bible makes much more sense.

Did you ever read John Calvin's Institutes?
It's pretty scary stuff.

The WCF says the same,,,but says it in a nicer way...
but it means the same. (for instance re election and predestination).
 
No confusion at all, man naturally doesnt seek after God. Rom 3:11, neither understands God.
So your answer to Nineveh is just to repeat your interpretation of man and their state, when Nineveh declares lost man can understand the prophets judgement call, repent and be forgiven. Jesus goes even further to suggest Jonah was Jesus speaking to sinners who understood and acted.

The important steps were the message, the condemnation of sin, the warning of judgement which was responded to by repentance and mourning in sackcloth and ashes. Where is the born again step, the in filling by the Holy Spirit and then the spiritual reconciliation? If it is not there your theology does not stand up.

God bless you

I do not expect you to agree or to answer this point, because this is the definition of cognitive disonance, a leap that goes beyond the logic, and holds the position without change. I debated with one member on a forum who denied his statement the post before his denial, which was absurd, but it must have made sense to him. Jesus described the teachers of the law like this, blind teachers, who failed at the simplest consistency of their position before God, yet God waited for the fruit of their lives to be fulfilled. That is His intention, to let things play out, and to ask the people of God to see and show love, nothing more, nothing less.

God bless you
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
I know Paul quoted from the OT. Know this about the OT 2 Tim 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yes. amen.

All scripture is inspired by God.


So now we can discuss what the scripture that Paul quoted from and that I quoted as well, instructs us.


Can you see Paul has quoted from the Old Testament?

Can we discuss the context of Psalm 14, the scripture Paul quoted from.


When the scripture in Romans 3:11 or Psalm 14 says there is no one who does good, does that include the righteous who are on the earth?

Do you believe David or Moses or Abraham or Jeremiah or Enoch or Job or Noah were righteous; we’re people who sought God and did what was good?


The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,

And do not call on the LORD?
There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
Psalm 14:1-5




Does Romans 3:11 include everyone on earth today?





JLB



JLB
 
Apparently there is a big conflict that you do not see.

If Romans 3:11 is correct, then the conflict is oustandingly big because the following
verses are in the same bible that quotes Romans 3:11 -
And Romans 3:11 is one...following are many.

The following state that we CAN and are REQUIRED to seek God.
This conflicts with your verse....Romans 3:11


Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Isaiah 55:6-7

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Lamentations 3:25

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

James 4:8

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

I still dont see no conflict. Man naturally under sin doesnt seek after God, nor understands God Rom 3:11
 
So your answer to Nineveh is just to repeat your interpretation of man and their state, when Nineveh declares lost man can understand the prophets judgement call, repent and be forgiven. Jesus goes even further to suggest Jonah was Jesus speaking to sinners who understood and acted.

The important steps were the message, the condemnation of sin, the warning of judgement which was responded to by repentance and mourning in sackcloth and ashes. Where is the born again step, the in filling by the Holy Spirit and then the spiritual reconciliation? If it is not there your theology does not stand up.

God bless you

I do not expect you to agree or to answer this point, because this is the definition of cognitive disonance, a leap that goes beyond the logic, and holds the position without change. I debated with one member on a forum who denied his statement the post before his denial, which was absurd, but it must have made sense to him. Jesus described the teachers of the law like this, blind teachers, who failed at the simplest consistency of their position before God, yet God waited for the fruit of their lives to be fulfilled. That is His intention, to let things play out, and to ask the people of God to see and show love, nothing more, nothing less.

God bless you
I have the slighteset idea what you are talking about friend. Its plain as day that men naturally to dont seek after God Rom 3:11
 
Yes. amen.

All scripture is inspired by God.


So now we can discuss what the scripture that Paul quoted from and that I quoted as well, instructs us.






JLB
Paul didnt quote the entire context from which he derived the scripture Rom 3:11 from, because he was led to only quote what was relevant for the point he was getting accross. So if you want to discuss those contexts, go right ahead, but Paul didnt do that, and neither am i.

Now if you want to discuss Rom 3:11 and its context, im willing. Let me know
 
I have the slighteset idea what you are talking about friend. Its plain as day that men naturally to dont seek after God Rom 3:11
Let me ask you a simple question. In Nineveh, where the people born again, following God or sinners about to be judged?

If sinners about to be judged, how did they repent and obtain forgiveness for their sin?

If you cannot answer these questions in your theology, what value is it?
Jesus pointed to Jonah as the example of His ministry.

The fact I have raised this question 3 times and you have not answered says you do not have an answer. Do you know Jesus then?

If you believe man does not seek after God at all, only when God anoints them, when does this anointing occur? And if only those who are born again respond, what about those that fall away? Is there no choice in your theology, that only the elect who stay faithful are the called?
Some I have discussed this with suggest those who appear to respond and then fall away were never called in the first place. The problem with this is neither the believer nor their friends will know until the end. All these fake called look like the elect, in this model.

This leads to witch hunts for the fake, to expel them, which Jesus actually rejects. He knew Judas and his intentions, but kept it quiet. So equally the betrayers will always be present and it does not matter because everything is within Gods will and purposes.

God bless you
 
I have the slighteset idea what you are talking about friend. Its plain as day that men naturally to dont seek after God Rom 3:11
This response saying you do not understand at all what I am saying reminds me of myself before I got into looking at theology and belief in the light and from different perspectives.

I am beginning to believe only with the Holy Spirit can any believer begin to touch on the infinite nature of the gospel and Gods revelation. But if I can encourage others to seek and find, God promises to give us knowledge in Him, Amen.

God bless you
 
Let me ask you a simple question. In Nineveh, where the people born again, following God or sinners about to be judged?

If sinners about to be judged, how did they repent and obtain forgiveness for their sin?

If you cannot answer these questions in your theology, what value is it?
Jesus pointed to Jonah as the example of His ministry.

The fact I have raised this question 3 times and you have not answered says you do not have an answer. Do you know Jesus then?

If you believe man does not seek after God at all, only when God anoints them, when does this anointing occur? And if only those who are born again respond, what about those that fall away? Is there no choice in your theology, that only the elect who stay faithful are the called?
Some I have discussed this with suggest those who appear to respond and then fall away were never called in the first place. The problem with this is neither the believer nor their friends will know until the end. All these fake called look like the elect, in this model.

This leads to witch hunts for the fake, to expel them, which Jesus actually rejects. He knew Judas and his intentions, but kept it quiet. So equally the betrayers will always be present and it does not matter because everything is within Gods will and purposes.

God bless you
I see no relevance. Man by nature doesnt seek after God nor understand God.
 
This response saying you do not understand at all what I am saying reminds me of myself before I got into looking at theology and belief in the light and from different perspectives.

I am beginning to believe only with the Holy Spirit can any believer begin to touch on the infinite nature of the gospel and Gods revelation. But if I can encourage others to seek and find, God promises to give us knowledge in Him, Amen.

God bless you
Only after a person is born again will they seek the True God for Salvation.
 
I see no relevance. Man by nature doesnt seek after God nor understand God.
So a group of sinners listening to God's warning and repenting is not relevent to do people desire to seek God.

Your claim no one desires to seek God unless they are born again but this is plainly false if Nineveh sought God and received forgiveness without being born again. Can you admit this is true, or are you so dismissive, your interpretation dominates everything.

The principle has to be ones interpretation meets all of scripture or it falls. God is the definer of truth not us, we just work to understand it. God bless you
 
Hierarchy thought

Scripture cannot lie so whatever it says is true. Some think every word has only one meaning so once found that's it.

Problem here is emphasis and summaries. Jesus says I am the truth......so all truth is in Jesus's word and body. Or is it all truth flows from Him, like a river flowing from a mountain, it's about origins causes not definition. E = mc2 is not in scripture but that does not make it false.

Taking any phrase and locking it away shows fear not truth. Truth overcomes, ascends, transcends things and limits, it's our partial views that are flawed.

God bless you

 
I still dont see no conflict. Man naturally under sin doesnt seek after God, nor understands God Rom 3:11
Some men are blind...
following other blind men.
Jesus warned against this:
Luke 6:39
39And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
 
Your claim no one desires to seek God unless they are born again but this is plainly false if Nineveh sought God and received forgiveness without being born again
Seems to be evidence of @brightpoint's view point. The people did not seek God of their own volition and as a consequence would have been destroyed. But, It was God that sought them by sending Jonah. God did the seeking. Maybe you believe they would repented on their own if Jonah had not come??? ... this would compliment your thesis, that men seek God ...but this scripture does not support that.

Aside: whether this story of Ninivah was repentance leading to salvation is not stated in scripture.
Aside 2: men do seek God, but only when God causes them to.
Cold in texas...no electricity for 17 hours now
 
Seems to be evidence of @brightpoint's view point. The people did not seek God of their own volition and as a consequence would have been destroyed. But, It was God that sought them by sending Jonah. God did the seeking. Maybe you believe they would repented on their own if Jonah had not come??? ... this would compliment your thesis, that men seek God ...but this scripture does not support that.

Aside: whether this story of Ninivah was repentance leading to salvation is not stated in scripture.
Aside 2: men do seek God, but only when God causes them to.
Cold in texas...no electricity for 17 hours now
Here is the problem about these discussions. If sinners are incapable of having a conscience, of doing good things, of repenting, or knowing the straight path unless they are born again, any example of this behaviour separate from redemption shows sinners can be discussed with. Now clearly Fredy, you accept sinners can respond to Gods messages, and repent.

Salvation was not part of Jonahs message, just judgement. Salvation becomes a live subject with the coming of the Kingdom. The idea of salvation was being an Israelite.
They discussed the idea of having your sins forgiven, which is necessary before the coming of the Kingdom. So John the Baptist preaches a baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Linked to salvation was being able to approach the Father, the Almighty, but only the cleansed could, those holy and purified. Jesus put himself as the source of this purification, and the doorway into communion.

All these concepts are linked and they are linked to searching, finding and seeking.
Jesus even describes the Kingdom of heaven being like a man who finds a jewel in a field, sells everything to buy the field and is happy. This story puts the emphasis on the believer valuing what they have found, and giving their all to pursue it.

That is not the story of the depraved and lost incapable of understanding or desiring to find God and His ways. I know my own depravation and inability of myself to find God, but by His grace He leads the way, that I very much have to follow.

God bless you
 
So a group of sinners listening to God's warning and repenting is not relevent to do people desire to seek God.

Your claim no one desires to seek God unless they are born again but this is plainly false if Nineveh sought God and received forgiveness without being born again. Can you admit this is true, or are you so dismissive, your interpretation dominates everything.

The principle has to be ones interpretation meets all of scripture or it falls. God is the definer of truth not us, we just work to understand it. God bless you
Naturally scripture says that sinners don't seek after God or understands God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
Some men are blind...
following other blind men.
Jesus warned against this:
Luke 6:39
39And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
I'm following the man Paul who wrote under the direction of the Spirit of God and he wrote the following Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
Naturally scripture says that sinners don't seek after God or understands God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
This is an interesting scripture. If God did not draw, no one would come, if God did not bring revelation, none would understand.

Put this all into context. The good samaritan was not a Jew, but he showed love to the man beaten by theives.
David describes his heart seeking after God

7 You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound.
8 I will lie down and sleep in peace, for you alone, O LORD, make me dwell in safety.
Psalm 19:7-8

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
Psalm 139:17-19

Was David born again? Could people before Jesus dwell in the Holy Spirit like we can?
If the apostles are right, the answer is no. It was a different type of relationship.

An equal insight into the reality of Jesus, is people who reject Jesus walk into death, because they reject the source of all life. In a sense we live in purgatory, a place between heaven and hell, where shadows of both exist and the heart of man can grasp some of the contradictions that exist.

Free will is the gift God gave us through the knowledge of good and evil, but without the Lord, will we always end up choosing evil, thinking the evil we do do, is only small and cannot affect the rest, little seeing it corrupts everything.

God bless you
 
Paul didnt quote the entire context from which he derived the scripture Rom 3:11 from, because he was led to only quote what was relevant for the point he was getting accross. So if you want to discuss those contexts, go right ahead, but Paul didnt do that, and neither am i.

Now if you want to discuss Rom 3:11 and its context, im willing. Let me know

It doesnt change the context of whom it was written in the first place.


Maybe you could answer the question.


When the scripture in Romans 3:11 or Psalm 14 says there is no one who does good, does that include the righteous who are on the earth?

Do you believe David or Moses or Abraham or Jeremiah or Enoch or Job or Noah were righteous; we’re people who sought God and did what was good?



JLB
 
Last edited:
Back
Top