Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

Don't mind me... just reading this thread to find out who is in what camp.

Welcome to the forum.
How many camps are there?
Could we whittle it down to one????

 

[AChristianStoic]

Welcome to the forum.
How many camps are there?
Could we whittle it down to one????

How many camps are there? The possibilities are endless.

After 2,000 years of our best and brightest debating these questions, I doubt we'll whittle it down any time soon. Sometimes I think God made it that way as part of the test.

 

[GodsGrace]

How many camps are there? The possibilities are endless.

After 2,000 years of our best and brightest debating these questions, I doubt we'll whittle it down any time soon. Sometimes I think God made it that way as part of the test.

Yes. I agree with you.
But how would it be part of the test?
Do you believe that incorrect doctrine could make a person be lost?

 

[AChristianStoic]

Yes. I agree with you.
But how would it be part of the test?
Do you believe that incorrect doctrine could make a person be lost?

No, only on the major stuff.

But on the minor stuff... nothing makes a Christian so uncharitable (or prone to talk nonsense) as a philosophical debate. Iron sharpens iron indeed.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, only on the major stuff.

But on the minor stuff... nothing makes a Christian so uncharitable (or prone to talk nonsense) as a philosophical debate. Iron sharpens iron indeed.

I think we agree.

I don't believe the doctrine (a teaching) a person believes will cause him to be lost if he is following
the commandments of God/Jesus.

It's not our fault if we learn something incorrect and that becomes what we believe.
God will certainly have mercy on us.

 

[JLB]

My wife would disagree.

I don’t remember Jerry Seinfeld being married.

 

[PeterJens]

OK smarty....

Here's the story:

YOU said Jesus gets those that the Father draws to Him...or gives Him.
I replied that Jesus said HE will draw all to Himself.

This is a conflict.
But, as there can be no conflict in the N.T.,,,,
there must surely be an answer.

John 6:44 which YOU posted
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him...."

John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


The big question is: WHO does the Father draw???
JLB answered this for you (us)....
God draws ALL MEN to Himself.
And He's been doing this since the dawn of time...
I refer you to Romans 1:19-20.

God reveals Himself to a man...somehow, it doesn't matter how.
That man has the opportunity to reply to God with a YES or with a NO.
So God has drawn that person...and the person decides what his answer will be.
This will refer to John 6:44

John 12:32 is ALSO correct!
Why? Because when a person hears of the great love Jesus has for us and the great sacrifice He made for us...
Not only the cross,,,but consider that He left heaven to become one of us....have you ever pondered this?

Jesus became as a lowly man....
so that a lowly man could become as Jesus.

So, yes, Jesus will draw all who hear about Him to Himself.
Even those that do not believe consider Him to be a great person.
He split time in half....Before His birth and After His birth.
But, again, it's up to the individual to say YES to Him.

And that, Mr. Seasoned by Grace, is the answer to the conflict.

Jesus is strange. He spoke few sermons, a few sentences in certain situations, yet He declared an outlook that cemented issues to whole societies, believers and non-believers. That is drawing all men to Him.

Love is life foundational and the cross it's greatest example. No one argues with dying for ones enemies. The argument comes will we pay the price. Most will not.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Paying the price.
To become like Jesus is to be despised by sinners as a reminder of what could be. Giving up the world is a real thing, not going ahead with others into self indulgence.

Choice is there, free will. I witnessed to a guy once who believed Jesus but would not pay the price.

But the price is life for death, love for envy and hatred, reality for delusion. If one has eyes to see no comparison at all.

God bless you

 

[Blade]

In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?

Well if no one can come to God unless He first draws them Wow did this with south fast lol. He in all things gets all the glory. The word round the world.. He started it. Just like in each of us.. We came to Him because He started it

 

[Walpole]

Well if no one can come to God unless He first draws them Wow did this with south fast lol. He in all things gets all the glory. The word round the world.. He started it. Just like in each of us.. We came to Him because He started it

Is man not drawn to God by the sheer fact that as a creature created by God, he has God written into his heart, so to speak?

In other words, as soon as man comes into being, he is being drawn by God. For God's very act of creating someone is an expression of His love and thus His desire for that person to spend eternity with Him. Would you agree with this?

 

[PeterJens]

Is man not drawn to God by the sheer fact that as a creature created by God, he has God written into his heart, so to speak?

In other words, as soon as man comes into being, he is being drawn by God. For God's very act of creating someone is an expression of His love and thus His desire for that person to spend eternity with Him. Would you agree with this?

God is our Father, we are born to commune with Him and walk in love. It is this reality you see in children, in innocence and wonder. Joy for joys sake, learning because it is fun. So easily is this corrupted and distorted yet it is still there.

God bless you

 

[Jacob62]

God is our Father, we are born to commune with Him and walk in love. It is this reality you see in children, in innocence and wonder. Joy for joys sake, learning because it is fun. So easily is this corrupted and distorted yet it is still there.

God bless you

Jesus never spoke of innocence and wonder in children.

Why would such a notion be valid? Is that how to follow Jesus? Nope. It is an attempt to add the foolishness of human sentiment onto the Gospel. Whether or not a child has wonderment is irrelevant.

 

[Jacob62]

I think we agree.

I don't believe the doctrine (a teaching) a person believes will cause him to be lost if he is following
the commandments of God/Jesus.

It's not our fault if we learn something incorrect and that becomes what we believe.
God will certainly have mercy on us.

It indeed is our fault if we learn something that is incorrect. That is why mindless chatting and sharing is a sin.

Jesus stated in Matt. 12:36 "Every idle word" will require an account thereof.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus never spoke of innocence and wonder in children.

Why would such a notion be valid? Is that how to follow Jesus? Nope. It is an attempt to add the foolishness of human sentiment onto the Gospel. Whether or not a child has wonderment is irrelevant.

We come to God like children.
You do not know Jesus if you do not know this. Jesus emphasised this so much, without it we cannot enter.

Jesus told off the disciples for stopping children coming to Him. Jesus talks about us as His. Listen who He protects.

God bless you.

I always wonder when anyone tries to be dismissive over something so fundamental. I met a believer who dismissed love, but then a hard heart cannot see the difference as nothing actually gets in.

 

[Jacob62]

We come to God like children.
You do not know Jesus if you do not know this. Jesus emphasised this so much, without it we cannot enter.

Jesus told off the disciples for stopping children coming to Him. Jesus talks about us as His. Listen who He protects.

God bless you.

I always wonder when anyone tries to be dismissive over something so fundamental. I met a believer who dismissed love, but then a hard heart cannot see the difference as nothing actually gets in.

Adding one's intuitive ideas to what Jesus said is a corruption of God's Word.

Jesus cited acceptance and humility as the only childlike features to be emulated. He said nothing about childlike "wonderment."

Learn to read what Scripture actually says, without adding human intuition. Is this a good idea? Yes? If you do not know this, you do not know Jesus, even to presumptuously use the word "We" over those whom you do not represent.

 

[Jacob62]

God is our Father, we are born to commune with Him and walk in love. It is this reality you see in children, in innocence and wonder. Joy for joys sake, learning because it is fun. So easily is this corrupted and distorted yet it is still there.

God bless you.

Give three specific examples of the manner and substance upon which you commune with God. Try not to just evasively circumvent this.

Thanks.

 

[Walpole]

God is our Father, we are born to commune with Him and walk in love. It is this reality you see in children, in innocence and wonder. Joy for joys sake, learning because it is fun. So easily is this corrupted and distorted yet it is still there.

God bless you

Great post.

 

[Walpole]

We come to God like children.
You do not know Jesus if you do not know this. Jesus emphasised this so much, without it we cannot enter.

Jesus told off the disciples for stopping children coming to Him. Jesus talks about us as His. Listen who He protects.

God bless you.

I always wonder when anyone tries to be dismissive over something so fundamental. I met a believer who dismissed love, but then a hard heart cannot see the difference as nothing actually gets in.

Calvinist cannot grasp that God is love. They believe God actually hates people and created some for the sheer pleasure in seeing destroyed. In the Calvinist system, if you are damned, it is because God hated you.

This is why the innocence of children is pointless to them. When Jesus called the children to Himself, to the Calvinist, it may as well had been a 50-year old man sitting in his lap because to the Calvinist, it makes no difference.

 

[Jacob62]

Calvinist cannot grasp that God is love. They believe God actually hates people and created some for the sheer pleasure in seeing destroyed. In the Calvinist system, if you are damned, it is because God hated you.

This is why the innocence of children is pointless to them. When Jesus called the children to Himself, to the Calvinist, it may as well had been a 50-year old man sitting in his lap because to the Calvinist, it makes no difference.

Yes, Calvinist are a sorry lot. I pity them.

Jesus did not instruct anyone to let His example of children inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven mean whatever they want it to mean. He limited the example of children to mean only humility and simple acceptance of Jesus.

Do not read your own thoughts into the text of Scripture.

 

[Walpole]

Yes, Calvinist are a sorry lot. I pity them.

Jesus did not instruct anyone to let His example of children inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven mean whatever they want it to mean. He limited the example of children to mean only humility and simple acceptance of Jesus.

Do not read your own thoughts into the text of Scripture.

What was Jesus' response when His disciples rebuked people for bringing their little children to Jesus?

Matthew 19:13-14 ---> "Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, 'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"

Do not be like the disciples who rebuked Jesus.