Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

How are they new creations when one of the verses that comes to mind is:

SEEK GOD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND.
Isaiah 55:6

Is it the already saved that are to seek God?
Have they not already found Him?

Isaiah 55 teaches that men are to cast off their wickedness and that they are to TURN TO THE LORD so that He may have mercy on them.
verse 7

This is a command: TURN TO THE LORD.
A command requires that one obey it.

I would also suggest that you read Romans 3:1-2
Who is the THEY being spoken of?
Is it speaking about the nation of Israel or is it speaking about individual salvation?
And who are the WE and THEY in verse 9?

It is stating that both JEWS AND GREEKS (Gentiles) are under the law.
Paul is speaking about the law and how all man is under the Law.
He is NOT speaking about man's inability to seek God.

The O.T. and the N.T. makes it clear that we are TO SEEK GOD.

Paul goes on to say that we are justified by faith. Romans 5:1
He goes on to say that to receive salvation it is necessary to PRESENT OURSELVES to God. Romans 6:16 (not to satan).
Paul states that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart we WILL BE SAVED. (future tense) Romans 10:9

God makes Himself available to all mankind. WHOSOEVER WILL......
We respond YES.
We are then saved.

THIS is the proper order for salvation.

You lost me, dont understand you. Man by nature, under sin, doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

What is it you dont understand about this declaration ?

 

[JLB]

It helps if one reads what actually has been written and not what one things has been written.

Do you disagree with what was written in my post?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is man not really capable of seeking God? NO!​

God seeks individuals (the elect) which causes them to believe and seek him. (Aside: the question is ambiguous)​

Evidence that Man does not seek God (on his own ... without God's selective intervention)
Psalm 14
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the children of men
To see if there are any who understand (act wisely),
Who [truly] seek after God, [longing for His wisdom and guidance].
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one. AMP

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them”

James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. To this the Arminian responds, "Not every good thing is from above, for I am not only able to seek God, I am able to believe in God and we work together to save me."

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds [like seeking God and believing salvificly] which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, [God regenerates us (the cause) and we respond by belief and seeking God (the effect).]

Luke 19:10 “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” [God does the seeking, He doesn't need our help. God is efficacious in that He finds EVERYONE HE SEEKS].

 

[GodsGrace]

You lost me, dont understand you. Man by nature, under sin, doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

What is it you dont understand about this declaration ?

brightfame....

What I don't understand about your declaration is that it amazes
me that faced with so much supportive scripture to the opposite,
you instead like to put your faith into something that cannot possibly
be learned just from reading scripture alone.
That would be that a person cannot choose to be saved...but must
wait and see if he is one of the lucky ones.

Apparently there is a huge conflict in what Paul teaches in his very own
epistles.

How do you reconcile Romans 3:11 with all the verses that teach
that man should absolutely seek God?

One verse cannot make a doctrine...

 

[GodsGrace]

Is man not really capable of seeking God? NO!​

God seeks individuals (the elect) which causes them to believe and seek him. (Aside: the question is ambiguous)​

Evidence that Man does not seek God (on his own ... without God's selective intervention)
Psalm 14
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the children of men
To see if there are any who understand (act wisely),
Who [truly] seek after God, [longing for His wisdom and guidance].
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one. AMP

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them”

James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. To this the Arminian responds, "Not every good thing is from above, for I am not only able to seek God, I am able to believe in God and we work together to save me."

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds [like seeking God and believing salvificly] which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, [God regenerates us (the cause) and we respond by belief and seeking God (the effect).]

Luke 19:10 “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” [God does the seeking, He doesn't need our help. God is efficacious in that He finds EVERYONE HE SEEKS].

Luke 19:10 THE SON OF MAN HAS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST.

Would you say that all mankind is lost?
Jesus came to save that which was lost....
all mankind - that would accept His sacrifice.

1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 2:21
21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


These are the steps to salvation:

1. The Son of Man has come to seek that which was lost --- all of mankind. Luke 19:10

2. God planned this from the beginning of time because He desires that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4

3. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21 who devoted themselves to the teaching
of the Apostles.

4. To be saved, one must repent from his sins. Acts 2:38

5. The person must receive His word and become a disciple as those in......Acts 2:41


How do you understand the above verses?
How does one overlook the true ordo salutis,
and all the scripture to support it?

Please also list your ordo salutis.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do mean empathy. The ability to feel what others feel. It is something we know when a grieving person enters the room or someone who is happy. My daughter is so sensitive to others she tends to repress her feelings in preference to others. This literally makes it hard to cause pain to another, because it causes pain to oneself.

One could argue that empathy implies compassion, because who wants to cause pain to oneself.
It is no surprise men tend to at the extreme are violent without any understanding of the impact they have on others, while women tend towards agreeing with people and avoiding conflict so the group is happy. In the extreme case of this a person loses themself in the feelings of all those around them.

In close personal relationships, it means women are more vulnerable to emotional blackmail, do this or I will get upset, and persuasion to stay in a situation which they should literally walk away from.

One driving force behind love is love for the other person and seeing what is good for them, and being able to pay the price. John talks about love for another, if a brother is hungry, saying God bless you is not good enough. If you have enough wealth to help, love helps. Looking at this expression of need and meeting it, if one is immune to spotting the need or even the benefit of meeting it, then how can love be present.

God bless you

Hi Peter....
I had a feeling that you meant empathy...
you've very understanding.

There's much wisdom in your words...
and I'd go so far as to say that some don't even recognize
the needs of others,,,or worse still, don't care.
I think I mentioned this.

And right...love is caring for the other person so much that
you do what they wish even if you don't want to.
BUT....a big but....it has to go both ways or problems could come up.
IOW...it takes two to tango!

 

[Fastfredy0]

How do you understand the above verses?

I suggest you get John MacArthur's New Testament Commentary to exegete your verses.

Aside: When you refused to define "Libertarian Free Will"; essential to your doctrine of salvation
or support your numerous false statements that Calvinist's believe God creates evil, even after being shown the Reform's Confessions explicitly state GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, I gave up.

 

[JLB]

I suggest you get John MacArthur's New Testament Commentary to exegete your verses.

Is that where you get your doctrine? John MacArthur?

 

[Who Me]

Do you disagree with what was written in my post?

So you really didn't read what I wrote.


I wrote about " non- Christians " being slaves to Satan.
You wrote in reply that Christians are not slaves to sin.

There is a very big difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

I suggest you get John MacArthur's New Testament Commentary to exegete your verses.

Aside: When you refused to define "Libertarian Free Will"; essential to your doctrine of salvation
or support your numerous false statements that Calvinist's believe God creates evil, even after being shown the Reform's Confessions explicitly state GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, I gave up.

First of all, John Macarthur is not my authority on scripture...
I happen to agree with what Jesus taught.

Second...you don't answer to my verses because you CANNOT.
I guess God did not predestine you to explain His word properly.

Thirdly....Calvinists believe God created everything, including evil.
I don't really care what the Reform's Confessions explicitely state.

The reformed confessions...all of them...MAKE NO SENSE.
To say that God creates everything but not evil MAKES NO SENSE.
To say that God predestines every little atom (in your own words) but does not cause man's sin MAKES NO SENSE.

Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism dealing with the question of the control that God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass."

(from the Westminster Confession of Faith)

WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS...means, in plain English...WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS.
Whatsoever means EVERYTHING....
God, in your own WCF or even the BCF, is said to have predestined EVERYTHING THAT COMES TO PASS.
This, of course includes sin and evil acts.
(I posted a REAL calvinist,,,Doug Wilson that clearly states this.
I guess you don't care for Doug Wilson. He speaks what calvinism really is with no fear.)

But,,,somehow or other, in a way THAT MAKES NO SENSE...
God is said in those confessions NOT to be responsible for man's sins.

This is necessary or God would be UNJUST in sending some to hell for no reason.
Voila! He now has a reason. God MAKES MAN SIN....but somehow is not responsible for it...
but man is responsible.

I know...it's a big mystery that man is not allowed to understand.
God is a God of confusion maybe.

And pay attention to this:

Predestination of the elect and non-elect was taught by the Jewish Essene sect,[4] Gnosticism,[5] and Manichaeism.[6] In Christianity, the doctrine that God unilaterally predestines some persons to heaven and some to hell originated with Augustine of Hippo during the Pelagian controversy in 412 AD.[7] Pelagius and his followers taught that people are not born with original sin and can choose to be good or evil. The controversy caused Augustine to radically reinterpret the teachings of the apostle Paul, arguing that faith is a free gift from God rather than something humans can choose.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

Look....calvinism is rooted in gnosticism and manichaeism, of which sect Augustine belonged to for 10 years before coming to Christianity...and he brought his very weird ideas with him.

But it seems calvinists these days just cannot accept calvinism.
They have a problem with DOUBLE PREDESTINATION. They have a problem with God creating evil.
And so they have attempted to explain it away,,,as if their inane explanation would
wash away God's responsibility for those that go to hell.

Accept it...you DO NOT agree with calvinism.
Even YOU cannot accept what it teaches...as most THINKING PERSONS cannot because IT MAKES NO SENSE.

And here is what John Calvin said about predestination:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Source: John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 Chapter 21 Paragraph 5


And here's what GOD'S WORD says about all of the above:
John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Unfortunately for you....
1. You don't believe God loves the whole world...His creation - which He does and is stated.
2. God gave His only Begotten Son to THE WORLD,,,not just to a select few which God could have chosen anyway.
3. WHOEVER,,,whatever person, will believe in His Son, (not those who already believe as calvinists interpret this)....this invitation is open to all...
4. Those persons, believing in Christ, by their own free will (too bad you need MEN to explain free will to you, any child knows what free will is) WILL BE SAVED....of their very own choice, with the help of the Holy Spirit in living for God.
5. God sent His Son to save THE WORLD...not just a few but those who meet God's conditions. Conditional Election.
6. Those that do not believe will be lost...God let's His creatures know exactly what they must do to be saved.

(the other 2 sources above are from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism)

You should read the entire article.
It even explains how Sproul doesn't agree with the term double predestination.
Forget about what GOD thinks of it....
Better to learn from MEN.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame....

What I don't understand about your declaration is that it amazes
me that faced with so much supportive scripture to the opposite,
you instead like to put your faith into something that cannot possibly
be learned just from reading scripture alone.
That would be that a person cannot choose to be saved...but must
wait and see if he is one of the lucky ones.

Apparently there is a huge conflict in what Paul teaches in his very own
epistles.

How do you reconcile Romans 3:11 with all the verses that teach
that man should absolutely seek God?

One verse cannot make a doctrine...

Rom 3:11 isn't my declaration but God's, I merely witness to it. Man by nature under sin does not understand or seek after God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 3:11 isn't my declaration but God's, I merely witness to it. Man by nature under sin does not understand or seek after God

You can quote Romans 3:11 in every post of yours.

The fact remains that you have created a biblical conflict and this is not possible.

You must be able to resolve this dilemma.

Apparently you do not care to....
As you are a follower of men, instead of a
Follower of our Lord.

See my post no. 111.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter....
I had a feeling that you meant empathy...
you've very understanding.

There's much wisdom in your words...
and I'd go so far as to say that some don't even recognize
the needs of others,,,or worse still, don't care.
I think I mentioned this.

And right...love is caring for the other person so much that
you do what they wish even if you don't want to.
BUT....a big but....it has to go both ways or problems could come up.
IOW...it takes two to tango!

Hi Fran,
"It takes two to tango"
I agree when a happy communion is established.
The doctors beside manner always made me wonder.
No matter what the patient responds, you keep composure, state the facts, take the most optimistic outcome and stay congenial.

I know how hard this is when I have spent my life learning to be aware of my emotional reactions and express them.
I realised this is a reality for my private existence, while in the world of sinners, I need to show that which brings them life and helps the situation along.

I call this stepping back, and responding appropriately to a situation, ignoring the history, or showing personal investment in the outcomes.

It takes time to master this approach, because we hope for a good outcome, but know this is not often the case, but worth the effort for the significant situations that occur.

Jesus talked about not throwing pearls before swine. The pearls are the reality of that which is so valuable, but once the enemy know ones vulnerability, they will just destroy you, rather than appreciate anything of value.

I used to think if I opened and shared from the heart with individuals they would obviously brighten up and respond favourably. Unfortunately this was actually rare, often the opportunity was taken to attack and destroy, as a weakness was detected, in the personal to and fro of interactions, rather than meeting someone at a deeper level.

My house group has helped me learn, continuous sharing, taking habits of the everyday, and changing them bears real fruit, sharing comparison approaches to problems in life and our emotional processes, in Jesus starts to bring life and eternity into the everyday. It is a wonder to realise we are the sum of our interactions and their outcomes, most of which are governed by our history and our automatic responses learnt through our lives.

But the good news is, following the straight way does change us and the outcomes to His praise and glory, as well as being something we really appreciate.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

There is no conflict, I believe i stated that already. Man by nature under sin doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now thats man by nature, unregenerate.

So if we see a verse about men seeking God, then they are new creations no longer under the power of sin.

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. Job 1:8

Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 53:3

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.
Acts 10:5

Job and Cornelius are deemed by God as worthy people, seeking Him.
So Paul and David are talking about man left to his own devices without Gods intervention would be lost. But both Job and Cornelius were seeking Gods favour, offering both good deeds and sacrifices for sin, as something worthy before Him, along with repentance.

It is therefore dangerous to take a statement about the nature of man without Gods intervention as a definitive statement as to the corruption of mans heart. We do not live in isolation from God, rather we exist because of God to fulfil His will and purposes. It is useful to isolate mans heart alone is totally lost, but that is not our state in the world. As Paul declares Gods nature is clear to all in His creation, and further in mans conscience, and I would say further still in mans love for his fellow man.

So I would say David and Paul are exaggerating like Jesus did about hating ones family when comparing love for family alongside love for God. So if we compare our good deeds in comparison to Gods actions, they are empty and devoid of value, though in reality God even values them.

Language is a strange thing. It is always summarizes perspectives, emphasising the summary, while often ignoring the boundaries and the detail. Nuance is hard to see, because there are so many factors involved. Just take the understanding of what love language is. We all have different ways, and some things deeply upset us while others are mild, yet to the outside world this appears as just absurd.

God has His own love language. A lot of the discussions often miss this, that there are not nice boundaries or clarity in a way we would like, with defined belief statements that bring security with definition. I have talked to people who say they are totally secure in Jesus because they "believe" Him while walking in sin and disobedience and rebellion.
Emotionally their words have a different context, and its about their identity or ethos, not Jesus. Their theology might be "right", but they have not found love, their thorns and thistles in interaction declare the turmoil and lack of the Holy Spirit within.

I am not here to "win" a point, but to show, there is complexity here, that is about our walk with our Lord Jesus.

God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

You can quote Romans 3:11 in every post of yours.

The fact remains that you have created a biblical conflict and this is not possible.

You must be able to resolve this dilemma.

Apparently you do not care to....
As you are a follower of men, instead of a
Follower of our Lord.

See my post no. 111.

There's no conflict. Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Its pretty plain.

 

[brightfame52]

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. Job 1:8

Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 53:3

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.
Acts 10:5

Job and Cornelius are deemed by God as worthy people, seeking Him.
So Paul and David are talking about man left to his own devices without Gods intervention would be lost. But both Job and Cornelius were seeking Gods favour, offering both good deeds and sacrifices for sin, as something worthy before Him, along with repentance.

It is therefore dangerous to take a statement about the nature of man without Gods intervention as a definitive statement as to the corruption of mans heart. We do not live in isolation from God, rather we exist because of God to fulfil His will and purposes. It is useful to isolate mans heart alone is totally lost, but that is not our state in the world. As Paul declares Gods nature is clear to all in His creation, and further in mans conscience, and I would say further still in mans love for his fellow man.

So I would say David and Paul are exaggerating like Jesus did about hating ones family when comparing love for family alongside love for God. So if we compare our good deeds in comparison to Gods actions, they are empty and devoid of value, though in reality God even values them.

Language is a strange thing. It is always summarizes perspectives, emphasising the summary, while often ignoring the boundaries and the detail. Nuance is hard to see, because there are so many factors involved. Just take the understanding of what love language is. We all have different ways, and some things deeply upset us while others are mild, yet to the outside world this appears as just absurd.

God has His own love language. A lot of the discussions often miss this, that there are not nice boundaries or clarity in a way we would like, with defined belief statements that bring security with definition. I have talked to people who say they are totally secure in Jesus because they "believe" Him while walking in sin and disobedience and rebellion.
Emotionally their words have a different context, and its about their identity or ethos, not Jesus. Their theology might be "right", but they have not found love, their thorns and thistles in interaction declare the turmoil and lack of the Holy Spirit within.

I am not here to "win" a point, but to show, there is complexity here, that is about our walk with our Lord Jesus.

God bless you

I already said several times Paul is Rom 3:11 is speaking about the natural man under sin. Its the unregenerate man that doesnt understand or seek after God.

Now if God gives a person new spiritual life within by the New Birth, then man can and does seek after God, the True God that is,

 

[Fastfredy0]

Human Responsibility to Come to Christ ​	Human Inability to Come to Christ​
1. “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15)	1. “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
2. “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.	2. “How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matthew 12:34)
3. “If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God.” (John 7:17)	3. “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18)
4. “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.” (John. 7:37)	4. “‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus looked at them and said to them, ‘With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26)
5. Acts 2:21 And it shall be that whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [invoking, adoring, and worshiping the Lord—Christ] shall be saved.	5. “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
6. “Repent therefore and be converted” (Acts 3:19)	6. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
7. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31)	7. “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
8. “but now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30)	8. “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (John 8:43)
9. Romans 10:13 For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.	9. “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (John 12:39-40)
10. Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [Resisted because God did not call them or because they chose not to?]	10. Romans 3:11 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.
11. 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.	11. “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” (Romans 5:6)
12. 2 Peter 3:9 but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.	12. “the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)
13. Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The counter argument being: human will is never apart from the divine enablement. God must move the heart of the unsaved. Apart from the divinely wrought inclination to believe no lost person ever wills to come.	13. “So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8)
14. “Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17) I can say, "Whoever becomes a fish can breathe under water." The statement is true, but it does not mean that a person can become a fish anytime he wishes.	14. “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Most "libertarian free willers" have no interpretation for the 13 verses on the right explicitly stating sinners can’t, or aren’t able to come to Christ. They interpret the verses on the left commanding responsibility as though they implied ability. Here’s their logical fallacy:

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.
Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we’re unable to do.)
Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof of the "assumed premise". People assume what they are trying to prove. Scripture gives many examples of God's commands that we are to obey but can't, Thus, the "assumed premise" is just that, an assumption.
Impossible commands we are giving to obey.

1. John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.
2. 2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ
3. Ephesians 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Notice, there are NO SCRIPTURE VERSES that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ independent of God's selection. John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
..... On the right, are 14 verses clearly stating sinners can’t come to Christ. (In addition, the Bible contains verses clearly showing Christians inability to do anything for Christ, without His power: John 15:5; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Hebrews 11:6. If Christians are unable to do anything without God’s ability, then how much more impotent are unregenerate sinners?)

Aside: One's bias often determines what one understands

 

[GodsGrace]

There's no conflict. Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Its pretty plain.

There is much conflict which must be resolved.
The conflict has been caused by man....
who declared that man is totally depraved and UNABLE to come to God...

PeterJens post is very clear....Cornelius was a seeker of God (Acts).
and he h ad not even heard the gospel as yet.

And please note what Peter states here:
Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


1. God does not show partiality.
2. The man who fears Him and does what is right is welcomed to Him.


In Matthew 7:7 JESUS said that if we seek, we will find, if we knock, it will be answered.

James commands sinners to cleanse their h ands and purify their hears
and he tells them to DRAW NEAR TO GOD...
James 4:8
8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


And you DO have a problem with a conflict if you believe the men that are teaching you...
because God's word states that we ARE TO SEEK GOD....

Matthew 6:33 JESUS said:
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


And many more verses.
Source: https://www.openbible.info/topics/seeking_god

​

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

​

etc.....

 

[PeterJens]

I already said several times Paul is Rom 3:11 is speaking about the natural man under sin. Its the unregenerate man that doesnt understand or seek after God.

Now if God gives a person new spiritual life within by the New Birth, then man can and does seek after God, the True God that is,

I think you miss-understand my point. I accept your interpretation fits, like any interpretation with the jigsaw theology which must create a context. Dispensationalists say for instance all Christs words were for Jews and not believers before the cross, after the cross we are in grace, so free from condemnation and not held accountable for our sin.

Cornelius was not born again, and neither was Job. Only after the Kingdom came to earth through Jesus and the cross did the Holy Spirit fall as we see today. One of our dilemmas is the same as the apostles. How could pagans come into the Kingdom without first being Jews, yet through the Holy Spirit God demonstrated grace and faith were sufficient.

Some think exercising faith and choice means we choose. One reading is God chose everyone through the cross and opened the door that all might come in. Does a farmer choose which seed takes root and which does not? He spreads the seed in the hope as many as possible will germinate and bear much fruit for the Kingdom.

I think in a real sense God predestined us to be saved, all those who respond, who warm to the good news. I do not know how or why or where, but I testify those called respond. I wonder why I fell in love with my wife and how it changed my life. My kids wonder at how I am almost normal, yet came from a strange dysfunctional family. But that is Jesus at work in my heart, to bring life eternal to our mortal souls.

What I am responding to is the sense of disapproval, rather than grace and love. I have found great fellowship when believers share their path rather than their doctrine. God chose us amen, and the love in us shouts Amen to God. That is enough for me.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Human Responsibility to Come to Christ​	Human Inability to Come to Christ​
1. “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15)	1. “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
2. “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.	2. “How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matthew 12:34)
3. “If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God.” (John 7:17)	3. “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18)
4. “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.” (John. 7:37)	4. “‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus looked at them and said to them, ‘With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26)
5. Acts 2:21 And it shall be that whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [invoking, adoring, and worshiping the Lord—Christ] shall be saved.	5. “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
6. “Repent therefore and be converted” (Acts 3:19)	6. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
7. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31)	7. “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:65)
8. “but now commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30)	8. “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (John 8:43)
9. Romans 10:13 For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.	9. “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (John 12:39-40)
10. Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [Resisted because God did not call them or because they chose not to?]	10. Romans 3:11 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.
11. 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.	11. “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” (Romans 5:6)
12. 2 Peter 3:9 but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.	12. “the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)
13. Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The counter argument being: human will is never apart from the divine enablement. God must move the heart of the unsaved. Apart from the divinely wrought inclination to believe no lost person ever wills to come.	13. “So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8)
14. “Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17) I can say, "Whoever becomes a fish can breathe under water." The statement is true, but it does not mean that a person can become a fish anytime he wishes.	14. “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Most "libertarian free willers" have no interpretation for the 13 verses on the right explicitly stating sinners can’t, or aren’t able to come to Christ. They interpret the verses on the left commanding responsibility as though they implied ability. Here’s their logical fallacy:

First Premise: God commands sinners to repent, believe & come to Christ.
Assumed Premise: (God would not command what we’re unable to do.)
Conclusion: Therefore, sinners are able to repent, believe & come to Christ.

There is no proof of the "assumed premise". People assume what they are trying to prove. Scripture gives many examples of God's commands that we are to obey but can't, Thus, the "assumed premise" is just that, an assumption.
Impossible commands we are giving to obey.

1. John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth.
2. 2 Corinthians 10:5 and take every thought captive to obey Christ
3. Ephesians 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Notice, there are NO SCRIPTURE VERSES that clearly state sinners can or are able to come to Christ independent of God's selection. John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
..... On the right, are 14 verses clearly stating sinners can’t come to Christ. (In addition, the Bible contains verses clearly showing Christians inability to do anything for Christ, without His power: John 15:5; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Hebrews 11:6. If Christians are unable to do anything without God’s ability, then how much more impotent are unregenerate sinners?)

Aside: One's bias often determines what one understands

A long path is started one step at a time. Only at the end is it complete.
Where along this path is the fulfilment of arriving and the guarantee that which is started will be completed?
Paul was very aware the end is what matters, staying in the faith, fulfilling the promise in Christ.

So much of evangelical church life is based around arriving at the cross and faith, and leaving it there and wondering why others do not come. Paul was focused on presenting the church without blemish, finished, the bride of Christ on His return. Paul knew the first step was just that.

Often it is this reality gets put to one side to maintain people in congregations when true transformation has not taken place, or the wonder of love working through the heart, and so many habits and approaches stay embedded in the world, rather than in the Lord.

God will work to completion His work in His people, but this is not who you think it is.
Just look at all these Spirit lead prophets lost on Trump, or Qanon, or whatever nutcase theory someone invents.
Whatever their faith is, it is not in Jesus.

I know of two pastors, who knew theology deeply yet did not know transforming love in their lives. For me to share love, love from heart to skin was like poison to them. One passed on thinking I was from the devil, the other just in opposition, declaring my love for the basic expression of faith, brain washing. How will they stand before the Lord of all? How much revulsion will rise up within which will destroy their very souls when all is revealed?

We live in the age of Laodecia, self indulgent people with leisure and no love reality. They have lost very few, and things are going well, or maybe financially poorly, but thats ok, as long as the blessing continues. Caring for others is just a nice extra in their house of security and certain futures. Bit of a worry their present is as deluded as their future security.

God bless you