Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

I agree with the VERY FIRST part of your statement that the "BIBLE SAYS" we are to seek God, many places in scripture.

DOES IT SAY WHEN?

But, we are also told to do a lot of other things, or not do a lot of things, like be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, or do not sin, or give your life to Christ, to or love your neighbor as yourself, and yetttt...How many of those things do we "CHOOSE"to do?

The bible says in John 6:44 where Jesus said, "NO ONE can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws them,"
THAT IS THE WHEN,
and even when they are drawn by God, they still have the FREE CHOICE whether to seek Christ or turn away as most do.
Simply stated, man can seek after Christ, once God has called that person, but not before. GOD SAY"S SO !!!

So there is your UNITY and HARMONY in Gods word and NO CONTRADICTIONS.
YOUR WECOME !!
Seasoned by Grace

Great post...very thought out.

But let me ask you this:

WHEN does the Father draw anybody?
Does He draw everybody?

God's grace falls on all?
Yes....God's grace is for all men....
Some accept it and some do not.

IOW,,,,I believe God calls us many times during our lifetime...
not just once and then He disappears.
When I think back on my life now...I kind of see God there all along.



Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
(all people who want it).

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
(Jesus is full of grace and He taught that all could be saved)

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
(Paul accepted God's grace)

Acts 20:24
But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
(the gospel is for everyone who will listen)

and let's not forget:

Matthew 5:45
That ye may be the children of your. Father which is in heaven: for he maketh. his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[GodsGrace]

If man was totally depraved you would have no hope or good works or love in the world.
What any parent realises babies are born loving and being inquisitive. It is their nature, to be optimistic, to feel safe and they will tell the parent when they do not feel safe, and to discover the world without any understanding.

Guilt for rebelling against the Lord by Israel was set when they reached 20 years old.
So guilt and depravity are not that clear cut.

God bless you

Hi Peter,

I couldn't agree with you more.
There are many that do good works that are not even saved....
If man were truly totally depraved this would be impossible.
Of course, the meaning of Total Depravity is changed so as to
bypass this problem...but we cannot change the meaning of words.

Here is what depraved means: Thankfully most persons are NOT depraved...

depraved
adjective

UK

/dɪˈpreɪvd/ US

/dɪˈpreɪvd/

morally bad or evil:
a depraved character/mind
Someone who can kill a child like that must be totally depraved.

source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/depraved

 

[GodsGrace]

All are naturally dead in sin. One must be born again to not be dead in sin.

HOW does one get to be born again?

 

[brightfame52]

Brother, you are very gifted and insightful.


Please use scripture, when you are promoting a certain doctrine. I believe you have much to offer here.


I still don’t understand how you came to the idea that people are first saved, then later on in life they believe in Christ.



Blessings to you, JLB

Sir please be consistent, You just made a comment in the other thread and did not use a scripture. I knew what you were referring to. Heres the comment:

The ones who are righteous are those who practice righteousness.

Also many others make comments without using scripture and nothing is said. So please be consistent all across the board.

In fact I gave a scripture reference at that. Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

You are the one who is teaching we must be saved first before we are saved. This makes no sense. How can one be saved first before coming to Christ. No one can save themselves, but only through the free gift of God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom we believe in can one be saved. Actually when we come to Christ through repentance and accept Him as Lord and Savior are we then become Spiritually born again from above and need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. None of us are saved yet as we have not endured all things yet, but only sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Matthew 24:13; Ephesians 4:30. Jesus taught us in Matthew 24 of those things we need to endure through and also the sign of His coming.

It makes plenty of sense, one must be saved out of Spiritual death before they can exercise a Spiritual fruit such as Faith. Faith that pleases God and believes in Christ is the Gift of God, not of human origin Eph 2:8

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame...
PLEASE reply to my post to you instead of making vague remarks that have no meaning.

It seems to me that it is YOU that is pretending some scripture does not exist.

You posted ONE VERSE that seems to be saying that no man seeks after God.
I not only explained that verse to you, but listed at least 10 or so that state that
man DOES seek God.

I asked you what we do with this "conflict".

I await your reply.

There is no conflict, I believe i stated that already. Man by nature under sin doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now thats man by nature, unregenerate.

So if we see a verse about men seeking God, then they are new creations no longer under the power of sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Please show me a verse in the entire bible that states that we are so dead that we cannot come to God.

Man is born spiritually dead.
We all agree on this.

Please show how man in NOT ABLE to come to God unless he is saved first.

If I am saved first....why do I need to be saved?

John 3:7
7Do not marvel that I said to you 'You must be born again'.

Why I Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again IF
Nicodemus has no control over this? (but he has to wait for God to quicken him, as you put it).



Why do I need to repent?

Matthew 4:17
17....Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Why is Jesus telling us to repent IF He knows that it's not up
to us to repent but up to God Father to "quicken us".
Didn't Jesus know the plan of salvation??

Man is dead in sin spiritually so he cannot come to Christ on his own. He must be given new life Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Please show me a verse in the entire bible that states that we are so dead that we cannot come to God.

Man is born spiritually dead.
We all agree on this.

Please show how man in NOT ABLE to come to God unless he is saved first.

If I am saved first....why do I need to be saved?

John 3:7
7Do not marvel that I said to you 'You must be born again'.

Why I Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again IF
Nicodemus has no control over this? (but he has to wait for God to quicken him, as you put it).



Why do I need to repent?

Matthew 4:17
17....Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Why is Jesus telling us to repent IF He knows that it's not up
to us to repent but up to God Father to "quicken us".
Didn't Jesus know the plan of salvation??

Man by nature, spiritually dead, cannot believe on Christ Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

5 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[brightfame52]

HOW does one get to be born again?

One is Born again by the Spirit through the resurrection of Christ 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Hath begotten us again means New Birth, Regeneration . Its the greek word anagennaō:

1. to produce again, be born again, born anew
2. metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

 

[Fastfredy0]

Spiritual Death Definition
Separation from God. Adam died spiritually when he sinned. Christ died spiritually on the cross per Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Spiritual Death is the separation from God caused by the imputed sin of Adam. The spiritually dead person is insensitive to the things of God. The only remedy is regeneration.

Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. Faith in God is something that is not native to the depraved human heart. Faith is a spiritual grace (Eph. 2:8-9), the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because the unregenerate are spiritually dead-"dead in trespasses and sins" (Romans 5:12)-then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a spiritually dead man cannot believe anything. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8)- but they could if it were possible for the flesh to believe before regeneration. Ask yourself, Can God be "pleased" or satisfied/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? (Aside: Man loves to glorify man)

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened [made alive those whom were spiritually dead … no one can resurrect himself physically of spiritually], who were dead in trespasses and sins. The unsaved are declared to be spiritually dead, and who quickens us (causes us to be reborn), the verse says GOD. 4 But God, being [so very] rich in mercy, because of His great and wonderful love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of our sins, He made us [spiritually] alive. AGAIN, who caused us to go from being 'spiritually dead' to being 'spiritually alive' (reborn).... v4. says it was GOD. (Aside: this is not rocket science)

_______________________________
To the question of the thread:

Is man not really capable of seeking God?​

The bible is clear ... NO ONE SEEKS GOD.
Romans 3:10–12: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

To the rebuttal of Rom 3:10-12, that there are many verses in which God asks us to seek Him; this statement is agreed to.
Unfortunately, the rebuttal argument continues: "God would not ask us to do something we cannot do." This is assumption that cannot be validated by the rebuttal verses. On the other hand, Romans 3:10-12 clearly does invalid the assumption.
.... but just for giggles one can find numerous occasions in which God asks us to do something we cannot do and thus show the rebuttal verses in question cannot be assumed to show man's ability to SEEK GOD.
Example 1: John 11:43 When He [Jesus] had said this, He shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 Out came the man who had been dead, his hands and feet tightly wrapped in burial cloths. If we are to believe that God does not ask us to do something we cannot do, then one must assume that dead Lazarus caused himself to become alive. Ridiculous.
Example 2: Mark 12:30 “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” The idea that anyone can obey this command because God asks us to is ridiculous.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter,

I couldn't agree with you more.
There are many that do good works that are not even saved....
If man were truly totally depraved this would be impossible.
Of course, the meaning of Total Depravity is changed so as to
bypass this problem...but we cannot change the meaning of words.

Here is what depraved means: Thankfully most persons are NOT depraved...

depraved
adjective

UK

/dɪˈpreɪvd/ US

/dɪˈpreɪvd/

morally bad or evil:
a depraved character/mind
Someone who can kill a child like that must be totally depraved.

source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/depraved

Hi Fran,

This brings to mind a problem I have touched on over the last few years.
A psychopath has a brain problem where they have no empathy circuits. It means they cannot empathise with others pain or hurts and will not flinch back or give comfort. They can learn how to recognise it in others but that is where it stops. To me empathy is an important part of connecting with others, though sometimes this connection can be difficult to establish through all the defensive barriers raised.

My daughter last night talked about the dilemma of falling in love and losing that person, the hurt making the value of the relationship dangerous. One individual after losing someone got a puppy, and realised that though loss is hard it is so much less than the wonder of good relationships.

In Christ this is an essential part of our realisation and walk. Sadly some very hurt people are happy to have a loving relationship with the Lord but not others.

It made me wonder if psychopaths can be saved in this empathetic sense, as this is an important aspect of love and reaching out. You could argue they are depraved as they do not have a conscience, and there is not a sensitivity in giving and receiving. My conclusion is of course they can be saved, but they need to learn the cost and value in relationships and make up for their lack of empathy through work, and maybe there will actually be no difference.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Spiritual Death Definition
Separation from God. Adam died spiritually when he sinned. Christ died spiritually on the cross per Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Spiritual Death is the separation from God caused by the imputed sin of Adam. The spiritually dead person is insensitive to the things of God. The only remedy is regeneration.

Faith is not the cause of the new birth, but the consequence of it. This ought not to need arguing. Faith in God is something that is not native to the depraved human heart. Faith is a spiritual grace (Eph. 2:8-9), the fruit of the spiritual nature, and because the unregenerate are spiritually dead-"dead in trespasses and sins" (Romans 5:12)-then it follows that faith from them is impossible, for a spiritually dead man cannot believe anything. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8)- but they could if it were possible for the flesh to believe before regeneration. Ask yourself, Can God be "pleased" or satisfied/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? (Aside: Man loves to glorify man)

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened [made alive those whom were spiritually dead … no one can resurrect himself physically of spiritually], who were dead in trespasses and sins. The unsaved are declared to be spiritually dead, and who quickens us (causes us to be reborn), the verse says GOD. 4 But God, being [so very] rich in mercy, because of His great and wonderful love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of our sins, He made us [spiritually] alive. AGAIN, who caused us to go from being 'spiritually dead' to being 'spiritually alive' (reborn).... v4. says it was GOD. (Aside: this is not rocket science)

_______________________________
To the question of the thread:

Is man not really capable of seeking God?​

The bible is clear ... NO ONE SEEKS GOD.
Romans 3:10–12: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

To the rebuttal of Rom 3:10-12, that there are many verses in which God asks us to seek Him; this statement is agreed to.
Unfortunately, the rebuttal argument continues: "God would not ask us to do something we cannot do." This is assumption that cannot be validated by the rebuttal verses. On the other hand, Romans 3:10-12 clearly does invalid the assumption.
.... but just for giggles one can find numerous occasions in which God asks us to do something we cannot do and thus show the rebuttal verses in question cannot be assumed to show man's ability to SEEK GOD.
Example 1: John 11:43 When He [Jesus] had said this, He shouted with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 Out came the man who had been dead, his hands and feet tightly wrapped in burial cloths. If we are to believe that God does not ask us to do something we cannot do, then one must assume that dead Lazarus caused himself to become alive. Ridiculous.
Example 2: Mark 12:30 “you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” The idea that anyone can obey this command because God asks us to is ridiculous.

no one seeks for God
Paul clearly is not talking about religion, because billions of people are religious.
I think Paul is getting at that by ourselves we would die rather than meet God face to face.
From our own lives, nothing would stand before Him, or add up, or manage to hold together.

Doing good, is something people do, but doing perfection, no one achieves.
There is a problem when talking about that which will stand before the Lord and that which man does for many different motives and reasons.

You can take Jesus's comment about hating others in comparison to God, and then justify hatred towards others.
The hate was a level of heirarchy, that nothing comes above our love for God. In a conflict all others things must stand aside.

Part of the failure of evangelicalism and the aesthetic positions, is they condemn humanity more harshly than God does, who values people so greatly He died for them. We are made in His image, and know what cleansing means and have aspirations to find life, though in ourselves are totally lost. If you just look at our failures there is nothing, but if you look at the good work God is doing in our hearts, praise to Him comes to our lips.

Look at our heroes, David, Samson, Moses, Elijah, all flawed humans, but by the grace of God He brought them through. Look at Peter and Paul, all had their difficulties, but in Him became overcomers.

Our tendency is to security and safety, and God gives us enough, but in Him we lay our lives on the altar.
God bless you

 

[JLB]

Also many others make comments without using scripture and nothing is said. So please be consistent all across the board.

And I will also interact with you and others without using scripture.


When you are wanting to teach a doctrine, especially one that is inconsistent with our SOF, please help us to understand you by posting scripture.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

And I will also interact with you and others without using scripture.


When you are wanting to teach a doctrine, especially one that is inconsistent with our SOF, please help us to understand you by posting scripture.



JLB

I see, you justify some people to do what you get on me about. You should consistently hold the standard for all, but I get it.

 

[Christ_empowered]

the best, most succinct explanation of the situation I've ever read (which...yes, means I'm paraphrasing Sproul, again) is this: -everyone- is commanded to repent, but only some are given the means by which to do so...those who are given the grace to repent are...

those who are predestined as vessels of mercy vs vessels of wrath, which is everybody on the broad road.

this raises the interesting situation of true conversions vs false conversions. fun fact: during the 1st Great Awakening, in the 18th century, Calvinist thought was dominant in Protestant America. this -did not- mean that the great preachers of that era did not spread The Good News...

it simply meant that false conversions were viewed as a distinct possibility. its interesting, because one reads about ministers looking at congregants for signs of real change, real growth ('ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears...') , and also encouraging -everyone- to repent and be saved...

while still believing that salvation is a supernatural act of God, and only -some- of those who heard The Good News would be affected, at all, and of those...

only -some- would become true, genuine Christians ("...many are called, but few are chosen...").

The current "make a decision for Christ" -- style of evangelism actually dates to...wait for it, wait for it...the 2nd Great Awakening, in the 19th century, and it was controversial, at the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Fran,

This brings to mind a problem I have touched on over the last few years.
A psychopath has a brain problem where they have no empathy circuits. It means they cannot empathise with others pain or hurts and will not flinch back or give comfort. They can learn how to recognise it in others but that is where it stops. To me empathy is an important part of connecting with others, though sometimes this connection can be difficult to establish through all the defensive barriers raised.

My daughter last night talked about the dilemma of falling in love and losing that person, the hurt making the value of the relationship dangerous. One individual after losing someone got a puppy, and realised that though loss is hard it is so much less than the wonder of good relationships.

In Christ this is an essential part of our realisation and walk. Sadly some very hurt people are happy to have a loving relationship with the Lord but not others.

It made me wonder if psychopaths can be saved in this empathetic sense, as this is an important aspect of love and reaching out. You could argue they are depraved as they do not have a conscience, and there is not a sensitivity in giving and receiving. My conclusion is of course they can be saved, but they need to learn the cost and value in relationships and make up for their lack of empathy through work, and maybe there will actually be no difference.

God bless you

A couple of comments:

I think you mean compassion and not empathy.
Most person do not have empathy...and I'm not sure it's even a good thing to have.
I've been "blessed" (LOL) with it and I find it rather harmful at times.

But most persons do have compassion for others and this is good.

I have an acquaintance (daughter of a friend) that is asocial.
She knows how to ACT in a social setting and is very friendly and well-like,
but she is totally oblivious to the problems of others and thinks only of herself.
It's a scary thing to behold.

She has a conscience of God...but it ends there.
I've never thought of the fact that these persons may be able to come to know God.
IF that is so,,,we leave them to the mercy of God. He knows the limit of the capability of
each one of us.

As to love and relationships...that's a difficult and long topic.
Fortunately for me, I haven't had much experience in this field.
But I can say that losing someone loved (romantically) or even not
have love returned, is very hurtful.

God made love to be good...but ole' split hooves got involved in that too!

 

[GodsGrace]

I think these images illustrate the difference between what the rest of the Christian world believes verses what Calvinists believe...

Christianity:

Calvinism:

This is just too good Walpole!

I've aid this many times, even quoting Rev 3:20, but actually seeing it just made
me laugh.

Yes Sir.
Jesus is knocking at the door. WE are individually required to open it.

Jesus DOES NOT push the door in !

Thanks for the post...

 

[GodsGrace]

the best, most succinct explanation of the situation I've ever read (which...yes, means I'm paraphrasing Sproul, again) is this: -everyone- is commanded to repent, but only some are given the means by which to do so...those who are given the grace to repent are...

those who are predestined as vessels of mercy vs vessels of wrath, which is everybody on the broad road.

this raises the interesting situation of true conversions vs false conversions. fun fact: during the 1st Great Awakening, in the 18th century, Calvinist thought was dominant in Protestant America. this -did not- mean that the great preachers of that era did not spread The Good News...

it simply meant that false conversions were viewed as a distinct possibility. its interesting, because one reads about ministers looking at congregants for signs of real change, real growth ('ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears...') , and also encouraging -everyone- to repent and be saved...

while still believing that salvation is a supernatural act of God, and only -some- of those who heard The Good News would be affected, at all, and of those...

only -some- would become true, genuine Christians ("...many are called, but few are chosen...").

The current "make a decision for Christ" -- style of evangelism actually dates to...wait for it, wait for it...the 2nd Great Awakening, in the 19th century, and it was controversial, at the time.

CE....I meant to reply to a post of yours in a different thread (I think) but I forgot to.
You had listed why you believe Calvinism to be true and listed steps involved.

What's wrong with these steps?:
1. Man is born without God and a sinner at heart.
2. Man comes to realize that He is a sinner.
3. God invites all to His banquet table.
4. Jesus must be accepted and followed -- we are to be disciples.
5. We repent of our sins...we change our direction.
6. God justifies us and we're on our way to sanctification.

Also, as to the above...
Are you aware that God PURPOSEFULLY takes away the salvation of some?
I mean,,,I sometimes wonder if calvinists really know what calvinism teaches.

Read this:

8. The expression of our Savior, “Many are called, but few are chosen,” (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear—viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

I truly believe that if you understood calvinism, you would leave that faith behind.

 

[PeterJens]

A couple of comments:

I think you mean compassion and not empathy.
Most person do not have empathy...and I'm not sure it's even a good thing to have.
I've been "blessed" (LOL) with it and I find it rather harmful at times.

But most persons do have compassion for others and this is good.

I have an acquaintance (daughter of a friend) that is asocial.
She knows how to ACT in a social setting and is very friendly and well-like,
but she is totally oblivious to the problems of others and thinks only of herself.
It's a scary thing to behold.

She has a conscience of God...but it ends there.
I've never thought of the fact that these persons may be able to come to know God.
IF that is so,,,we leave them to the mercy of God. He knows the limit of the capability of
each one of us.

As to love and relationships...that's a difficult and long topic.
Fortunately for me, I haven't had much experience in this field.
But I can say that losing someone loved (romantically) or even not
have love returned, is very hurtful.

God made love to be good...but ole' split hooves got involved in that too!

I do mean empathy. The ability to feel what others feel. It is something we know when a grieving person enters the room or someone who is happy. My daughter is so sensitive to others she tends to repress her feelings in preference to others. This literally makes it hard to cause pain to another, because it causes pain to oneself.

One could argue that empathy implies compassion, because who wants to cause pain to oneself.
It is no surprise men tend to at the extreme are violent without any understanding of the impact they have on others, while women tend towards agreeing with people and avoiding conflict so the group is happy. In the extreme case of this a person loses themself in the feelings of all those around them.

In close personal relationships, it means women are more vulnerable to emotional blackmail, do this or I will get upset, and persuasion to stay in a situation which they should literally walk away from.

One driving force behind love is love for the other person and seeing what is good for them, and being able to pay the price. John talks about love for another, if a brother is hungry, saying God bless you is not good enough. If you have enough wealth to help, love helps. Looking at this expression of need and meeting it, if one is immune to spotting the need or even the benefit of meeting it, then how can love be present.

God bless you

 

[Who Me]

Christians are warned not to be slaves of sin.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16


Paul is speaking to Christians who are under grace.



Each born again Christian must make the choice to either live according to the sinful desires of their flesh, or living according to the righteous impulses of the Spirit.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

JLB

It helps if one reads what actually has been written and not what one things has been written.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no conflict, I believe i stated that already. Man by nature under sin doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now thats man by nature, unregenerate.

So if we see a verse about men seeking God, then they are new creations no longer under the power of sin.

How are they new creations when one of the verses that comes to mind is:

SEEK GOD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND.
Isaiah 55:6

Is it the already saved that are to seek God?
Have they not already found Him?

Isaiah 55 teaches that men are to cast off their wickedness and that they are to TURN TO THE LORD so that He may have mercy on them.
verse 7

This is a command: TURN TO THE LORD.
A command requires that one obey it.

I would also suggest that you read Romans 3:1-2
Who is the THEY being spoken of?
Is it speaking about the nation of Israel or is it speaking about individual salvation?
And who are the WE and THEY in verse 9?

It is stating that both JEWS AND GREEKS (Gentiles) are under the law.
Paul is speaking about the law and how all man is under the Law.
He is NOT speaking about man's inability to seek God.

The O.T. and the N.T. makes it clear that we are TO SEEK GOD.

Paul goes on to say that we are justified by faith. Romans 5:1
He goes on to say that to receive salvation it is necessary to PRESENT OURSELVES to God. Romans 6:16 (not to satan).
Paul states that if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart we WILL BE SAVED. (future tense) Romans 10:9

God makes Himself available to all mankind. WHOSOEVER WILL......
We respond YES.
We are then saved.

THIS is the proper order for salvation.