Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[brightfame52]

There is much conflict which must be resolved.
The conflict has been caused by man....
who declared that man is totally depraved and UNABLE to come to God...

PeterJens post is very clear....Cornelius was a seeker of God (Acts).
and he h ad not even heard the gospel as yet.

And please note what Peter states here:
Acts 10:34
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


1. God does not show partiality.
2. The man who fears Him and does what is right is welcomed to Him.


In Matthew 7:7 JESUS said that if we seek, we will find, if we knock, it will be answered.

James commands sinners to cleanse their h ands and purify their hears
and he tells them to DRAW NEAR TO GOD...
James 4:8
8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


And you DO have a problem with a conflict if you believe the men that are teaching you...
because God's word states that we ARE TO SEEK GOD....

Matthew 6:33 JESUS said:
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


And many more verses.
Source: https://www.openbible.info/topics/seeking_god

​

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

​

etc.....

I dont see any conflict. Its pretty simple and plain. What does Paul write about man naturally under sin, when it comes to seeking and understanding God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Interesting also is the word seeketh here is the same word that is used with a connection to faith Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So man naturally doesnt have this Faith that seeks God

 

[brightfame52]

I think you miss-understand my point. I accept your interpretation fits, like any interpretation with the jigsaw theology which must create a context. Dispensationalists say for instance all Christs words were for Jews and not believers before the cross, after the cross we are in grace, so free from condemnation and not held accountable for our sin.

Cornelius was not born again, and neither was Job. Only after the Kingdom came to earth through Jesus and the cross did the Holy Spirit fall as we see today. One of our dilemmas is the same as the apostles. How could pagans come into the Kingdom without first being Jews, yet through the Holy Spirit God demonstrated grace and faith were sufficient.

Some think exercising faith and choice means we choose. One reading is God chose everyone through the cross and opened the door that all might come in. Does a farmer choose which seed takes root and which does not? He spreads the seed in the hope as many as possible will germinate and bear much fruit for the Kingdom.

I think in a real sense God predestined us to be saved, all those who respond, who warm to the good news. I do not know how or why or where, but I testify those called respond. I wonder why I fell in love with my wife and how it changed my life. My kids wonder at how I am almost normal, yet came from a strange dysfunctional family. But that is Jesus at work in my heart, to bring life eternal to our mortal souls.

What I am responding to is the sense of disapproval, rather than grace and love. I have found great fellowship when believers share their path rather than their doctrine. God chose us amen, and the love in us shouts Amen to God. That is enough for me.

God bless you

The natural man under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11 nor understands God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul wrote this during NT Times post Cross !

 

[Fastfredy0]

I dont see any conflict. Its pretty simple and plain. What does Paul write about man naturally under sin, when it comes to seeking and understanding God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Interesting also is the word seeketh here is the same word that is used with a connection to faith Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So man naturally doesnt have this Faith that seeks God

Agreed. Our case is built on what God NO ONE CAN do. Their case is built on what they assume man can do because God asks us to seek him. We explain their verses by saying you are making an assumption; there are examples in the Bible where God asks us to do things we can't do. They don't explain our verses save once to say they have more assumption verses than we have specific verses and there is some new, weird hermeneutic they've inverted that:
When you have more verses using assumptions then verses that are precise, then you go with the assumption verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont see any conflict. Its pretty simple and plain. What does Paul write about man naturally under sin, when it comes to seeking and understanding God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Interesting also is the word seeketh here is the same word that is used with a connection to faith Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So man naturally doesnt have this Faith that seeks God

Look what you posted:

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


Please note:

1. Hebrews 11:6 states that "he who comes to God" ----
A person must COME TO GOD.

2. God is a rewarder OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM ----
Man is a seeker of God.

It's difficult to use scripture when it goes against everything you believe.


You also dismiss tens of verses that state that man seeks God.
You CANNOT dismiss verses, but must explain them...ESPECIALLY if there is a conflict.

 

[GodsGrace]

The natural man under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11 nor understands God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul wrote this during NT Times post Cross !

Is there a difference between PRE CROSS
and
POST CROSS??

Didn't God predestine everything before time began?

Did He not know about the cross PRE CROSS??

What exactly did God change His mind about?

 

[brightfame52]

And yet Jesus commanded us to do that very thing.....to seek. To knock.

Jesus was speaking to believers, His disciples when He told them that. Now man by nature, under sin do not seek after God Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

Look what you posted:

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


Please note:

1. Hebrews 11:6 states that "he who comes to God" ----
A person must COME TO GOD.

2. God is a rewarder OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM ----
Man is a seeker of God.

It's difficult to use scripture when it goes against everything you believe.


You also dismiss tens of verses that state that man seeks God.
You CANNOT dismiss verses, but must explain them...ESPECIALLY if there is a conflict.

I know what Heb 11:6 says, I just posted it. The natural man by nature doesnt seek God, thats my point Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

Is there a difference between PRE CROSS
and
POST CROSS??

Didn't God predestine everything before time began?

Did He not know about the cross PRE CROSS??

What exactly did God change His mind about?

I dont understand your point. Man by nature, under sin doesnt seek God. Rom 3:11

Its an OT Doctrine as well, in fact Paul quoted the OT into the NT Ps 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was speaking to believers, His disciples when He told them that. Now man by nature, under sin do not seek after God Rom 3:11

Jesus was NOT speaking to believers, His disciples, when He said SEEK AND YOU SHALL FIND...in Matthew 7:7
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Perhaps you're not aware that Jesus was speaking about the beatitudes
in Matthew chapters 5 to 7.

He had gone on a hilltop where the Sea of Galilae could probably be seen.
He was speaking to a crowd of persons that were there to listen to Him....
As you must know...some persons were not His disciples, but were just there
to listen to what He had to say. Much like those that abandoned Him in John 6:66

See Matthew 8:1....."when He came down from the mountain" the crowds had followed Him.
This was at the end of the beatitudes, the crowd followed Him down the hill.

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont understand your point. Man by nature, under sin doesnt seek God. Rom 3:11

Its an OT Doctrine as well, in fact Paul quoted the OT into the NT Ps 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Right.
And did you bother to read all the verses that plainly stated that
MAN SEEKS GOD and is to do so???

I guess not.
Your hooked on Romans 3:11 because it SEEMS to say what you THINK it says.



If you have nothing further to add....

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont understand your point. Man by nature, under sin doesnt seek God. Rom 3:11

Its an OT Doctrine as well, in fact Paul quoted the OT into the NT Ps 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

You stated that something was POST the Cross.....
What is the difference if something is before the cross or after the cross??
Does God CHANGE after the cross?

In post 123 you stated the following:

The natural man under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11 nor understands God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul wrote this during NT Times post Cross !

(what does the highlighted mean?)

 

[GodsGrace]

I know what Heb 11:6 says, I just posted it. The natural man by nature doesnt seek God, thats my point Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I explained to you what Hebrews 11:6 is stating.

Unfortunately, you prefer John Calvin to Jesus or Paul or any of the N.T. writers.

 

[PeterJens]

The natural man under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11 nor understands God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul wrote this during NT Times post Cross !

I think you are missing the point this is a quote from Psalms 14: 3 and Psalm 53:3
It is all about the nature of man. Paul is emphasising this has been declared for thousands of years, about how far we are from knowing the straight way.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

You stated that something was POST the Cross.....
What is the difference if something is before the cross or after the cross??
Does God CHANGE after the cross?

In post 123 you stated the following:

The natural man under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11 nor understands God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul wrote this during NT Times post Cross !

(what does the highlighted mean?)

People point this out when they are dispensationalists.
I am a dispensationalist, because Jesus declares His kingdom has come, in the form of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the hearts of believers, as Paul says, we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Before the cross, there was the curtain which separated man from the Father, who only the High Priest once a year could enter in. This was such a significant change, hebrews points it out, that now we can enter into the Holy of Holies through the blood of Christ. The morality and approach has not changed, access has. Obeying the law is not from a distance, without understanding but fear, now is rooted in love in the heart to skin, and the fruit showing in all we do.

Unfortunately dispensationalists tend to say morality and love are nice to haves, because we are now saved, no matter the state of our walk, or as one believer in this put it, they put on a good show for non-believers, to help attract them.

For me this is a denial of the cross and entering in, saying having God in our hearts changes nothing. If that was true, why die on the cross at all? If God can make His people by ex-nihilo command, why let the sinful world continue, He can just command heaven to begin, and His Holy people to reign.

It is clearly absurd to hold God can create and command a Holy people into existence, because the fall would have never happened, or the discussion and promise, despite Israel going its own way. The whole problem is love needs to draw, persuade and encourage Gods people to walk as He walks, to love as He loves, to be as He is.

God bless you

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus was NOT speaking to believers, His disciples, when He said SEEK AND YOU SHALL FIND...in Matthew 7:7
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Perhaps you're not aware that Jesus was speaking about the beatitudes
in Matthew chapters 5 to 7.

He had gone on a hilltop where the Sea of Galilae could probably be seen.
He was speaking to a crowd of persons that were there to listen to Him....
As you must know...some persons were not His disciples, but were just there
to listen to what He had to say. Much like those that abandoned Him in John 6:66

See Matthew 8:1....."when He came down from the mountain" the crowds had followed Him.
This was at the end of the beatitudes, the crowd followed Him down the hill.

Okay if you say so. It doesn't change Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

Right.
And did you bother to read all the verses that plainly stated that
MAN SEEKS GOD and is to do so???

I guess not.
Your hooked on Romans 3:11 because it SEEMS to say what you THINK it says.



If you have nothing further to add....

Rom 3:11 makes a plain declaration, none seeks after God or understands.

 

[brightfame52]

I explained to you what Hebrews 11:6 is stating.

Unfortunately, you prefer John Calvin to Jesus or Paul or any of the N.T. writers.

I know what Heb 11:6 is saying. I posted it remember.

 

[brightfame52]

I think you are missing the point this is a quote from Psalms 14: 3 and Psalm 53:3
It is all about the nature of man. Paul is emphasising this has been declared for thousands of years, about how far we are from knowing the straight way.

God bless you

I know what it's about. Man naturally does not seek after God Rom 3:11

 

[PeterJens]

I know what it's about. Man naturally does not seek after God Rom 3:11

Here is the spiritual dilemma. Man separate from God is always suspicious and full of defences and lack of trust. Everyone and everything is a threat. God is most assuredly on the outside and unknown.

Our disposition is to take over, conquer, take control, amass wealth, security, influence.
But another aspect of this is we desire love, appreciation, truth, honesty, friendship, openness, yet it always seems to slip from our grasp. So yes we seek God, or origins, or foundations and direction, yet in our stumbling we often get it wrong.

So many I have met who grew up in one version of faith, to overthrow it, and create another.
Israel were happy to be freed from slavery, only if it was better, and possibly with things they were familiar with.
The idea of being lost, our worst enemy, our own betrayers, is very far from the reality we want to imagine.
To put this in perspective, a believer calls me evil, following satan to share Christs love and His transformation of the heart, its cleansing and reality.

It is the emotional realities within that define us not our beliefs. Our beliefs are doors to help us see the door and find the handle and begin to follow. If our beliefs solidify our hearts as they are in the world, we are lost beyond hope.
I pray and hope you know Jesus and His reality. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

The truth shall set you free

Jesus is about light, seeing the truth of who we are, leaving the chains behind and walking in freedom and love in His Kingdom. My daughter makes fun of me at the meal table, my longish descriptions of things. She decided for once to let me speak. I showed my hurt, and I did feel it. But in forgiveness, I just took the opportunity to share what was needed, which was short and brief.

It is always these points, when we are real that define can we take the risk, can we be as we are, accept the interplay and rise above. I am my daughters father, but also a friend and someone who desires to encourage and help. Her fear is I am only interested in my opinions and ways, and cannot accept space, or her choices. It is a strong feeling she has, and it has taken many years to begin to see this interplay. Turning the other cheek is in part taking the pain, and just pausing, and carrying on. Jesus did this for us, and we need to learn how fragile others are, and in Christ how we are eternally strong. He is life, He is victorious, He is the Lord.

Without the pain, and choosing to take it, how can we prove our real intent to those fragile and scared. And sinners are very scared and do not know what they are facing when they meet people of the Kingdom. Something is there which they would like, but cannot define, an insight that is real yet seems afar off.

As Peter describes walking in this is a choice, putting on brotherly love is not something imposed or automatic, but our calling, the fruit of our agreement and commitment to our King and Lord.

God bless you