Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[GodsGrace]

Okay if you say so. It doesn't change Rom 3:11

It does show that maybe you're understanding other verses incorrectly too.

You can't take one verse and ignore tens of others that say the opposite.

Romans 3:11 states that there is none righteous.
Paul was saying that when we're born we are all born with the sin nature (depravity) and are lost.
There is none righteous means that with our own effort, we cannot be saved...we cannot be saved by works.
This is what Paul is communicating in Romans...how we are saved by grace.

Many times we see a post that states that our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Isaiah 64:6 OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...when we try to be righteous on our own.

IOW....we are saved by faith and not by righteousness.
Ephesians 2:8-9 It is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH....and not by works....

Also, we can know Paul is saying the above because immediately after
Romans 3:11 where he says that there is none righteous,,,he states that some men were called
righteous...Abraham; Romans 4:2

We are made righteous -- justified --- by our faith in Jesus, not by works.
Romans 3:26
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Our righteousness is from Christ Jesus...we are justified by HIM and not by our own works.

In the same way that Abraham was righteous by faith (justified)
it is also said that Job was an upright and righteous man... (righteous means right with God)...
Job 1:1
1There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

I'd like to say that the calvinist beliefs cause many problems in scripture...
it causes many conflicts which should not be there.

You should consider all this before devoting your life to a faith system that is wrought with problems.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know what Heb 11:6 is saying. I posted it remember.

No brightfame....

You do not address the problems calvinism creates...
you just keep repeating the same verse over and over.

It means you have nothing else to offer.
Please read my above post carefully...
it's what all other Christians believe except for the reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

People point this out when they are dispensationalists.
I am a dispensationalist, because Jesus declares His kingdom has come, in the form of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the hearts of believers, as Paul says, we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Before the cross, there was the curtain which separated man from the Father, who only the High Priest once a year could enter in. This was such a significant change, hebrews points it out, that now we can enter into the Holy of Holies through the blood of Christ. The morality and approach has not changed, access has. Obeying the law is not from a distance, without understanding but fear, now is rooted in love in the heart to skin, and the fruit showing in all we do.

Unfortunately dispensationalists tend to say morality and love are nice to haves, because we are now saved, no matter the state of our walk, or as one believer in this put it, they put on a good show for non-believers, to help attract them.

For me this is a denial of the cross and entering in, saying having God in our hearts changes nothing. If that was true, why die on the cross at all? If God can make His people by ex-nihilo command, why let the sinful world continue, He can just command heaven to begin, and His Holy people to reign.

It is clearly absurd to hold God can create and command a Holy people into existence, because the fall would have never happened, or the discussion and promise, despite Israel going its own way. The whole problem is love needs to draw, persuade and encourage Gods people to walk as He walks, to love as He loves, to be as He is.

God bless you

I've heard of this word DISPENSATIONALISM but am not sure what it means.
I happen to agree with all you've said above about the Kingdom of God being brought
to the world and about the difference between the O.T., which also required obedience...
and the N.T. which makes it possible for the reasons you've stated.

So does that make me a dispensationalist?
(so many titles!).

What does a non-dispensationalist believe?
What you've posted sounds like traditional Christianity to me.

 

[brightfame52]

Here is the spiritual dilemma. Man separate from God is always suspicious and full of defences and lack of trust. Everyone and everything is a threat. God is most assuredly on the outside and unknown.

Our disposition is to take over, conquer, take control, amass wealth, security, influence.
But another aspect of this is we desire love, appreciation, truth, honesty, friendship, openness, yet it always seems to slip from our grasp. So yes we seek God, or origins, or foundations and direction, yet in our stumbling we often get it wrong.

So many I have met who grew up in one version of faith, to overthrow it, and create another.
Israel were happy to be freed from slavery, only if it was better, and possibly with things they were familiar with.
The idea of being lost, our worst enemy, our own betrayers, is very far from the reality we want to imagine.
To put this in perspective, a believer calls me evil, following satan to share Christs love and His transformation of the heart, its cleansing and reality.

It is the emotional realities within that define us not our beliefs. Our beliefs are doors to help us see the door and find the handle and begin to follow. If our beliefs solidify our hearts as they are in the world, we are lost beyond hope.
I pray and hope you know Jesus and His reality. God bless you

Whats the point of all this ? It simply doesnt overturn Rom 3:11 wherein man naturally doesnt seek after God, not the True God of scripture. Man may seek after a god, but just not the True God.

 

[brightfame52]

It does show that maybe you're understanding other verses incorrectly too.

You can't take one verse and ignore tens of others that say the opposite.

Romans 3:11 states that there is none righteous.
Paul was saying that when we're born we are all born with the sin nature (depravity) and are lost.
There is none righteous means that with our own effort, we cannot be saved...we cannot be saved by works.
This is what Paul is communicating in Romans...how we are saved by grace.

Many times we see a post that states that our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Isaiah 64:6 OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...when we try to be righteous on our own.

IOW....we are saved by faith and not by righteousness.
Ephesians 2:8-9 It is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH....and not by works....

Also, we can know Paul is saying the above because immediately after
Romans 3:11 where he says that there is none righteous,,,he states that some men were called
righteous...Abraham; Romans 4:2

We are made righteous -- justified --- by our faith in Jesus, not by works.
Romans 3:26
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Our righteousness is from Christ Jesus...we are justified by HIM and not by our own works.

In the same way that Abraham was righteous by faith (justified)
it is also said that Job was an upright and righteous man... (righteous means right with God)...
Job 1:1
1There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

I'd like to say that the calvinist beliefs cause many problems in scripture...
it causes many conflicts which should not be there.

You should consider all this before devoting your life to a faith system that is wrought with problems.

It doesnt change anything. Man by nature doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

No brightfame....

You do not address the problems calvinism creates...
you just keep repeating the same verse over and over.

It means you have nothing else to offer.
Please read my above post carefully...
it's what all other Christians believe except for the reformed.

The same verse is relevant over and over. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understands. Rom 3:11

 

[PeterJens]

I've heard of this word DISPENSATIONALISM but am not sure what it means.
I happen to agree with all you've said above about the Kingdom of God being brought
to the world and about the difference between the O.T., which also required obedience...
and the N.T. which makes it possible for the reasons you've stated.

So does that make me a dispensationalist?
(so many titles!).

What does a non-dispensationalist believe?
What you've posted sounds like traditional Christianity to me.

Dispensationalists talk about the ages of salvation.
Each dispensation has in their view a different way of salvation.
So you have Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus.

They take each timeframe and put together a different set of rules and concepts around what is acceptable behaviour, normally culminating in the the period of grace, where there is just acceptance without moral obligation.

What becomes clear is excusing the present day need to follow Jesus, just to believe, whatever they mean by this.
In our discussions with these folk, it appears the status quo is ok, so that defines their benchmark.

Their end time theology becomes odd, because the Jews can rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices which are acceptable to God without Jesus, which is clearly absurd, and this denies the splitting of the curtain, and in effect is declaring for the Jews the curtain remains.

The emotional message is simple, and any obligation put on people in evil. You could suggest this is the equivalent of atheist view of morality is a cultural external imposition and has no value in itself, even if biologically morality is about good social cohesion.

You can see this weird theology worked out justifying the settlements in the West bank and depossessing of christians of their property without complaint or the obvious discrimination against palistinians who have lived in the land for hundreds of years, by new commers on the basis of the claim of being Israelies who have inherited the land.

You will find Mossad hate Jews who dislike Israels behaviour and are not zionists, who it appears are actually in the minority in the whole of the Jewish diaspora.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

I've heard of this word DISPENSATIONALISM but am not sure what it means.
I happen to agree with all you've said above about the Kingdom of God being brought
to the world and about the difference between the O.T., which also required obedience...
and the N.T. which makes it possible for the reasons you've stated.

So does that make me a dispensationalist?
(so many titles!).

What does a non-dispensationalist believe?
What you've posted sounds like traditional Christianity to me.

In the sense dispensational salvation changes the method or means of salvation to times and groups in history, we are not dispensationalist, but in acknowledging the unique change after the coming of the Holy Spirit, our relationship is much deeper and profound.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Whats the point of all this ? It simply doesnt overturn Rom 3:11 wherein man naturally doesnt seek after God, not the True God of scripture. Man may seek after a god, but just not the True God.

I am not saying mans heart is not in rebellion against the Lord, I disagree with the term totally depraved.
If you have a married couple who are estranged and antagonistic to each other, declaring this is the state of affairs, is just that. It does not mean it cannot change and avenues be built to bring about reconciliation.

The parable of the prodigal son is such a journey, away from God into the pleasures of the world and final valuing the truth that lies in God. In the prodigal son, it is the son who comes to the realisation of where he is and what he would receive from his father, which far exceeds his current state. It is the son, who picks himself up and seeks out the father.

Or the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom. They are waiting, in charge of what they are doing and ready for the time. Everything is about God doing all that is required, but the believer needs to see and respond, listen and act. Passivity is not acceptable.

If I was to describe a non-swimmer, and their inability to swim, it does not stop them from learning and desiring to conquer their inability. Faith comes by hearing the word, without preaching there will be no faith and no stepping forward. Extreme calvanism denies this reality, and would rather be silent than share.

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

Dispensationalists talk about the ages of salvation.
Each dispensation has in their view a different way of salvation.
So you have Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus.

They take each timeframe and put together a different set of rules and concepts around what is acceptable behaviour, normally culminating in the the period of grace, where there is just acceptance without moral obligation.

What becomes clear is excusing the present day need to follow Jesus, just to believe, whatever they mean by this.
In our discussions with these folk, it appears the status quo is ok, so that defines their benchmark.

Their end time theology becomes odd, because the Jews can rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices which are acceptable to God without Jesus, which is clearly absurd, and this denies the splitting of the curtain, and in effect is declaring for the Jews the curtain remains.

The emotional message is simple, and any obligation put on people in evil. You could suggest this is the equivalent of atheist view of morality is a cultural external imposition and has no value in itself, even if biologically morality is about good social cohesion.

You can see this weird theology worked out justifying the settlements in the West bank and depossessing of christians of their property without complaint or the obvious discrimination against palistinians who have lived in the land for hundreds of years, by new commers on the basis of the claim of being Israelies who have inherited the land.

You will find Mossad hate Jews who dislike Israels behaviour and are not zionists, who it appears are actually in the minority in the whole of the Jewish diaspora.

God bless you

I believe that man was always saved by faith...
even before there was a bible put together.
I also believe we are supposed to obey God...
how could it be otherwise?

So, yes, I don't think the rules were different.
Sometimes, in the O.T., God said that He didn't even want
sacrifices, but it spoke many times of our heart and how it needs
to be renewed.

Sacrifices in the future age make no sense...I agree.
And JUST "BELIEVING" in the sense that many understand this word
...is just not enough.

So, now it sounds like you do not agree with this dispensationalism.
Man certainly does come up with many different ideas!

 

[brightfame52]

I am not saying mans heart is not in rebellion against the Lord, I disagree with the term totally depraved.
If you have a married couple who are estranged and antagonistic to each other, declaring this is the state of affairs, is just that. It does not mean it cannot change and avenues be built to bring about reconciliation.

The parable of the prodigal son is such a journey, away from God into the pleasures of the world and final valuing the truth that lies in God. In the prodigal son, it is the son who comes to the realisation of where he is and what he would receive from his father, which far exceeds his current state. It is the son, who picks himself up and seeks out the father.

Or the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom. They are waiting, in charge of what they are doing and ready for the time. Everything is about God doing all that is required, but the believer needs to see and respond, listen and act. Passivity is not acceptable.

If I was to describe a non-swimmer, and their inability to swim, it does not stop them from learning and desiring to conquer their inability. Faith comes by hearing the word, without preaching there will be no faith and no stepping forward. Extreme calvanism denies this reality, and would rather be silent than share.

God bless you

Man is also spiritually dead to God , dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5 alienated from God Eph 4:18


Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Man must be born again before he can spiritually act towards God. The natural man is in total inability towards God. Doesnt seek God nor understand God Rom 3:11

 

[GodsGrace]

Man is also spiritually dead to God , dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5 alienated from God Eph 4:18


Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Man must be born again before he can spiritually act towards God. The natural man is in total inability towards God. Doesnt seek God nor understand God Rom 3:11

You just repeat what you've been brainwashed into believing instead of answering the other member's post.

Man is not so depraved that he cannot look up to God.

If you believe man is so dead.....then why EVANGELIZE??
Is God unable to regenrate a man all on His very own?
God needs OUR help to call a person to salvation?

And regeneration before salvation...
One must be saved before he could be saved.
Gotta love that one.

Look at the steps here:

Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Acts 2:21
21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Acts 2:41
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


1. BELIEVE
2. BE SAVED

1. CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD
2. BE SAVED

1. RECEIVE HIS WORD
2. BE BAPTIZED
3. BE SAVED

Note that all of the above are COMMANDS:
God COMMANDS US to do the above.
HE does NOT do this for us.

Could you show a verse that supports your idea that it is GOD that saves
us first in order for us to be saved?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Doesnt seek God nor understand God Rom 3:11

Has anyone exegeted Romans 3:10 for you yet??? Maybe I have missed the explanation of the apparent contradiction:
Premise 1) People do seek God
Premise 2) Romans 3:10 says NO ONE SEEKS God.

Psalm 14:2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Has anyone exegeted Romans 3:10 for you yet??? Maybe I have missed the explanation of the apparent contradiction:
Premise 1) People do seek God
Premise 2) Romans 3:10 says NO ONE SEEKS God.

Psalm 14:2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

I did.
But apparently you have me on ignore.

 

[GodsGrace]

The same verse is relevant over and over. Man naturally doesnt seek after God, nor understands. Rom 3:11

Let's try this and return to kindergarten time:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


God loved the WORLD...ALL OF HIS CREATION
God offered His only begotten Son
WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish
but will have everlasting life.

Quite a difference from what you believe and is not found in the bible:
Book 3 Chapter 21 Paragraph 5
Institutes of the Christian Religion

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

 

[brightfame52]

You just repeat what you've been brainwashed into believing instead of answering the other member's post.

Man is not so depraved that he cannot look up to God.

If you believe man is so dead.....then why EVANGELIZE??
Is God unable to regenrate a man all on His very own?
God needs OUR help to call a person to salvation?

And regeneration before salvation...
One must be saved before he could be saved.
Gotta love that one.

Look at the steps here:

Acts 16:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Acts 2:21
21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Acts 2:41
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


1. BELIEVE
2. BE SAVED

1. CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD
2. BE SAVED

1. RECEIVE HIS WORD
2. BE BAPTIZED
3. BE SAVED

Note that all of the above are COMMANDS:
God COMMANDS US to do the above.
HE does NOT do this for us.

Could you show a verse that supports your idea that it is GOD that saves
us first in order for us to be saved?

Evangelism is for the ones God has regenerated, made alive. Its not for the dead in sin. Man naturally doesnt understand God Rom 3:11 neither can he receive and understand the Spiritual things of God 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know[understand] them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[brightfame52]

Has anyone exegeted Romans 3:10 for you yet??? Maybe I have missed the explanation of the apparent contradiction:
Premise 1) People do seek God
Premise 2) Romans 3:10 says NO ONE SEEKS God.

Psalm 14:2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Whats your point ? Men naturally dont seek after God Rom 3:11

Let's try this and return to kindergarten time:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


God loved the WORLD...ALL OF HIS CREATION
God offered His only begotten Son
WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish
but will have everlasting life.

Quite a difference from what you believe and is not found in the bible:
Book 3 Chapter 21 Paragraph 5
Institutes of the Christian Religion

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

So what does this have to do with men naturally dont seek God ? Rom 3:11

 

[GodsGrace]

Evangelism is for the ones God has regenerated, made alive. Its not for the dead in sin. Man naturally doesnt understand God Rom 3:11 neither can he receive and understand the Spiritual things of God 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know[understand] them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Why would a regenerated man need evangelization?

Evangelize means trying to convince someone about becoming Christian...
Why would one do this for someone already Chrisitain.

Definition of evangelize​

transitive verb
1: to preach the gospel to
2: to convert to Christianity


The unregenerated man does not understand spiritual things.
This means someone that is not born again...

The question is:
HOW DOES ONE BECOME BORN AGAIN....

By seeking God:
JESUS said: SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND...KNOCK AND IT WILL BE OPENED
Matthew 7:7


Paul stated that WE MUST DRAW NEAR TO GOD.
Hebrews 11:6

 

[GodsGrace]

So what does this have to do with men naturally dont seek God ? Rom 3:11

This:


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


God loved the WORLD...ALL OF HIS CREATION
God offered His only begotten Son
WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish
but will have everlasting life.

Quite a difference from what you believe and is not found in the bible:
Book 3 Chapter 21 Paragraph 5
Institutes of the Christian Religion

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

 

[JLB]

Whats the point of all this ? It simply doesnt overturn Rom 3:11 wherein man naturally doesnt seek after God, not the True God of scripture. Man may seek after a god, but just not the True God.

Overturn Romans 3:11? No one said anything about “overt-turning” Romans 3:11.


As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:10-11



The phrase “as it is written” tells us Paul s quoting from the Old Testament.


The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
Psalm 14:1-3



The context is the fool says in his heart...


Now look at verse 4-5


Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the LORD?
There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous.
Psalm 14:4-5


The context of “none who do good” and “none who seek me” refers to the fool who are workers of iniquity and not God’s people.





JLB