Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[rogerg]

For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

I don't understand your question. Jesus is speaking to His disciples in the verses you quoted
[Mat 13:10-12 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

That is, Jesus was speaking to those who had already become born again

 

[JLB]

I don't understand your question. Jesus is speaking to His disciples in the verses you quoted
[Mat 13:10-12 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

That is, Jesus was speaking to those who had already become born again

Yes agreed, Jesus was speaking to His 12 disciples.


Does that mean everyone else in the world is blind and therefore by your reasoning; incapable of being saved?



JLB

 

[rogerg]

Does that mean everyone in the world s blind and therefore by your reasoning; incapable of being saved?

Yes. Only those chosen by God from the foundation of the earth for salvation, will be saved. All of the others will not be.
The Bible tells us that many, many more are of unsaved than of the saved. Were it otherwise, no one, from Adam and Eve, until the end of this world, would/could become saved

[Gal 4:27 KJV] 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

 

[JLB]

Yes. Only those chosen by God from the foundation of the earth for salvation, will be saved. All of the others will not be.
The Bible tells us that many, many more are of unsaved than of the saved. Were it otherwise, no one, from Adam and Eve, until the end of this world, would/could become saved

[Gal 4:27 KJV] 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Yes?

If everyone else in the world is blind, besides His 12 disciples that He was speaking to in Matthew 13, and by your reasoning, incapable of being saved, then how did so many other‘s in the Bible get saved; how is it we are saved if only the 12 disciples were the ones ”see” and “hear”?


Contextually, “they” and “them” specifically refer to the ones Jesus spoke in parables to.


Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. Matthew 13:13-17


You do understand that Jesus personally discipled 12 men, and blessed them and taught them His doctrine, and sent them out as apostles, to preach the Gospel, and to teach others what He taught them, right?


Can you see that “they”, and “them“ refers to specific group of people that Jesus was referring to and not “everyone else” in the world, besides His 12 disciples.


IOW, please stop lifting verses out of their context and applying them to whoever you want.







JLB

 

[rogerg]

Yes?

If everyone else in the world is blind, besides His 12 disciples that He was speaking to in Matthew 13, and by your reasoning, incapable of being saved, then how so many other‘s in the Bible get saved; how is it we are saved if only the 12 disciples were the ones ”see” and “hear”?

Sorry, I misunderstood your point. Only those saved (throughout time) are they whose names were written into the Lamb's book of life. They alone will become born again. God alone knows all of those names

 

[jaybo]

I don't understand your question. Jesus is speaking to His disciples in the verses you quoted
[Mat 13:10-12 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

That is, Jesus was speaking to those who had already become born again

The disciples were most definitely not "born again' (born of the Spirit) until it was given to all at the Pentecost.

 

[rogerg]

The disciples were most definitely not "born again' (born of the Spirit) until it was given to all at the Pentecost.

They were born again.
Isn't/wasn't Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit? Did He stop being God at some point during His ministry
so that He did not have power to give spiritual rebirth?
The way people were reborn differed before Pentecost than after it, but they were definitely indwelt by the Holy Ghost before too, and they had been given the same spiritual blessings as those after Pentecost. Don't you think prophets such as David, or Daniel, or Ezekiel were first moved by the Holy Ghost?
Doesn't God tell us that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God?
"all scripture" by inspiration of God with "all" meaning ALL. How did that come about?

Before Pentecost:

[Psa 51:11 KJV]
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Forgot this one:

[1Sa 16:13 KJV]
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

[Isa 63:11 KJV] 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?

[Luk 10:18-19 KJV]
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Luk 10:20 KJV]
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Jhn 17:9-11 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

"keep through thine own name": the Holy Spirit

 

[rogerg]

You do understand that Jesus personally discipled 12 men, and blessed them and taught them His doctrine, and sent them out as apostles, to preach the Gospel, and to teach others what He taught them, right?


Can you see that “they”, and “them“ refers to specific group of people that Jesus was referring to and not “everyone else” in the world, besides His 12 disciples.


IOW, please stop lifting verses out of their context and applying them to whoever you want.

You know, after reading your reply again I see it needs further critique. Several things come to mind:
1) The Bible addresses only two groups of people: those who were chosen by God to salvation and those who
weren't. Everyone falls into one or the other.
2) Everyone in the Bible who is saved is saved in the same way: God saves them. People beyond the twelve apostles
became saved too, however no one is capable of saving themselves.
3) Those God elected to salvation become saved and born again based upon when He so chooses for them.
Obtaining salvation is a spiritual event not a human or earthly one. It can occur at any point during their lives.
4) Jesus (God, the Holy Spirt) spoke (wrote) in parables and allegory throughout the entire Bible, not just during a
particular conversation or during His ministry on this earth - the Bible is one integrated book (I thought you knew
that). That is, for the most part, God wrote the Bible using allegory and parables. Unless we look for and find
them in it, we will never really be able to plumb its depths.
5) Jesus taught more than 12 apostles. Have you never heard of His sermons (or discourses)? Anyway, the point
you're trying to make is extremely obscure, vague and seemingly, very illogical
6) Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit who teaches/instills spiritual truth/faith within those He saves not man
7) IOW maybe you think that due to a lack of biblical understanding on your part ?

 

[JLB]

The Bible addresses only two groups of people: those who were chosen by God to salvation

Ok, so let’s start there.


Please show me the scriptures that teach us about God choosing people for salvation.


Remember the theme of this thread topic is…

Is obeying the Lord and His commandments required for salvation?

At this point, why don’t you answer that question.


Here is my answer with scripture.

Yes.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[rogerg]

Please show me the scriptures that teach us about God choosing people for salvation.

Here are just some of the more obvious verses that informs us of election. I can provide more if you'd like,

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Is obeying the Lord and His commandments required for salvation?

No and only disobedient people are saved which, before becoming saved, we all were. Our actions
in no way dictate, our salvation - it's a free gift given to those whom He has chosen.

Yes.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

In other words, Christ is the author of eternal salvation - it is not addressing its application but that He is its author
(see Heb 12:2 below). Those who "obey" are those who obey the Gospel of Christ. To be of those, you must first have been called (see 2Th 2:14 below). If you don't obey the gospel of Christ, then, at least up to that point, you haven't been called or saved

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[2Th 2:14 KJV] 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Rom 1:16 KJV]
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Just as suggestion, but it is never a good idea not to base an entire doctrine on just one verse. In the Bible, we have been admonished that no verse of prophecy is of any private interpretation

 

[Hopeful]

Here are just some of the more obvious verses that informs us of election. I can provide more if you'd like,

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


No and only disobedient people are saved which, before becoming saved, we all were. Our actions
in no way dictate, our salvation - it's a free gift given to those whom He has chosen.



In other words, Christ is the author of eternal salvation - it is not addressing its application but that He is its author
(see Heb 12:2 below). Those who "obey" are those who obey the Gospel of Christ. To be of those, you must first have been called (see 2Th 2:14 below). If you don't obey the gospel of Christ, then, at least up to that point, you haven't been called or saved

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[1Pe 1:2 KJV] 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[2Th 2:14 KJV] 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Rom 1:16 KJV]
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Just as suggestion, but it is never a good idea not to base an entire doctrine on just one verse. In the Bible, we have been admonished that no verse of prophecy is of any private interpretation

Do you really think those who hate God, (those who serve sin), will be saved?

 

[rogerg]

Do you really think those who hate God, (those who serve sin), will be saved?

Everyone, before they're saved/born again, serves sin because they reject Christ
and trust in their earning of salvation, thereby setting Christ at naught and calling
God a liar. Nevertheless, in spite of all that, and as a testament to God's mercy which
is beyond our understanding, He chose to save some of us - but not because we have
have done anything to deserve it. All any of us can say to God for it should we receive it
are three words: thank you, Father.

Should have included that the answer to your question is definitely yes,
for those He chose to save, but not everyone.

Hope that makes sense

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone, before they're saved/born again, serves sin because they reject Christ
and trust in their earning of salvation, thereby setting Christ at naught and calling
God a liar. Nevertheless, in spite of all that, and as a testament to God's mercy which
is beyond our understanding, He chose to save some of us - but not because we have
have done anything to deserve it. All any of us can say to God for it should we receive it
are three words: thank you, Father.

Should have included that the answer to your question is definitely yes,
for those He chose to save, but not everyone.

Hope that makes sense

I do so wish those of the reformed faith would stop calling God merciful.
It's a contradiction in terms to put the words Merciful God and the teaching of Calvin in the same sentence.

Why did God make us?
To predestine most of us to eternal torment?
How is that merciful?

And why do we DESERVE eternal torment?
We're only doing what God predestined us to do.
How is that just?


And, carpet bombing us with verses won't cut it.
Try one at a time so we could discuss it and show you the error of your ways.
Calvinism is not biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are just some of the more obvious verses that informs us of election. I can provide more if you'd like,

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Where does 1 Peter 1:2 state that God chose us before the beginning of time?

It says that we are elect (chosen) according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God.

Verse 3 states that we are born again through the resurrection of Jesus.

Verse 4 states we are born again to a living hope.....to obtain an inheritance that will not fade away.

Verse 5 THROUGH OUR FAITH, God is protecting the believers.

The reward for trusting Jesus will be the salvation of our souls. Verse 8.

Please explain why we will be rewarded for trusting Jesus IF it is God that predestines us to trust Him....
God rewards us for doing what He forces us to do?

Some day you'll understand that calvinism makes no sense.

Romans 8:28-29 also speaks of the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God.
Nowhere does it state we are predestined to be saved.....
but only HOW we will be saved. Not WHO.

God KNEW who would accept His offer of salvation....
He did not predestine it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Only those chosen by God from the foundation of the earth for salvation, will be saved. All of the others will not be.
The Bible tells us that many, many more are of unsaved than of the saved. Were it otherwise, no one, from Adam and Eve, until the end of this world, would/could become saved

[Gal 4:27 KJV] 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

And Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Jesus commands us to enter through the narrow gate...
and He states that there are few WHO FIND IT.

The gate MUST BE FOUND.
If it were predestined by God ....
Jesus would not command us to enter through the narrow gate...
and to FIND IT.



THEN Jesus tells us exactly WHO will enter into the kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Those who do the will of the Father will enter into the Kingdom of heaven....
Those who practice lawlessness will NOT enter into the Kingdom of heaven...

Does it say that God CHOSE who would enter into the Kingdom of heaven?
Or does it state that if we obey God we WILL enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

 

[rogerg]

t's a contradiction in terms to put the words Merciful God and the teaching of Calvin in the same sentence.

It isn't correct to say that God is merciful because saves those who don't deserve it ?
What would we be left with if it was otherwise? If it was up to us to chose Jesus, then
no one would and what happens to those who are unable to do so due to no fault of their own? Should
they suffer judgement? Or do you think everyone will be saved?
No, God is perfectly just and the only one capable of choosing who
is to inherit eternal life. After all, He is the one who made the payment for sin through His offering.
That gives Him the right to choose whom He desires.

Why did God make us?
To predestine most of us to eternal torment?
How is that merciful?

Are you saying everyone will be saved?

And why do we DESERVE eternal torment?
We're only doing what God predestined us to do.
How is that just?

He doesn't predestinate those who aren't saved. Adam, Eve and Satan caused God's judgment to be levied against mankind. God gave fair warning to Adam and Eve not to violate His commandment.
We should all be under God's judgment. Everyone commits sin from the womb.
You don't get to sit in judgment of God, wondering. It's arrogant for you to think you can because you don't like it.

[Psa 58:3 HNV]
3 The wicked go astray from the womb. They are wayward as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

[1Co 15:20-21 KJV]
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

And, carpet bombing us with verses won't cut it.
Try one at a time so we could discuss it and show you the error of your ways.

That's ridiculous. The discussion wasn't with you so you're in no position to judge my reply.
I'm under no responsibility to you. You have no authority nor prerogative to tell me what I can say nor how I say it.
If you don't like what I've written, then don't read it - it's that simple.

 

[rogerg]

Where does 1 Peter 1:2 state that God chose us before the beginning of time?

It says that we are elect (chosen) according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God.

Verse 3 states that we are born again through the resurrection of Jesus.

Verse 4 states we are born again to a living hope.....to obtain an inheritance that will not fade away.

Verse 5 THROUGH OUR FAITH, God is protecting the believers.

The reward for trusting Jesus will be the salvation of our souls. Verse 8.

Please explain why we will be rewarded for trusting Jesus IF it is God that predestines us to trust Him....
God rewards us for doing what He forces us to do?

Some day you'll understand that calvinism makes no sense.

Romans 8:28-29 also speaks of the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God.
Nowhere does it state we are predestined to be saved.....
but only HOW we will be saved. Not WHO.

God KNEW who would accept His offer of salvation....
He did not predestine it.

I'm putting you on ignore

 

[GodsGrace]

It isn't correct to say that God is merciful because saves those who don't deserve it ?
What would we be left with if it was otherwise? If it was up to us to chose Jesus, then
no one would and what happens to those who are unable to do so due to no fault of their own? Should
they suffer judgement? Or do you think everyone will be saved?
No, God is perfectly just and the only one capable of choosing who
is to inherit eternal life. After all, He is the one who made the payment for sin through His offering.
That gives Him the right to choose whom He desires.


Are you saying everyone will be saved?


He doesn't predestinate those who aren't saved. Adam, Eve and Satan caused God's judgment to be levied against mankind. God gave fair warning to Adam and Eve not to violate His commandment.
We should all be under God's judgment. Everyone commits sin from the womb.
You don't get to sit in judgment of God, wondering. It's arrogant for you to think you can because you don't like it.

[Psa 58:3 HNV]
3 The wicked go astray from the womb. They are wayward as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

[1Co 15:20-21 KJV]
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.


That's ridiculous. The discussion wasn't with you so you're in no position to judge my reply.
I'm under no responsibility to you. You have no authority nor prerogative to tell me what I can say nor how I say it.
If you don't like what I've written, then don't read it - it's that simple.

The discussion wasn't with me?
This is an open thread.
If you want a private conversation with someone you could PM them.

I can judge your replies,,,at least I don't say your posts are ridiculous, as you have done above.

As to asking if I think everyone will be saved,,,,that's an old trick and a waste of our time.

Actually, it is calvinism that teaches either a weak God or universalism.

How?

The bible teaches that God desires all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

Is He too weak to save everyone?
Can't He even accomplish what He desires?

Then we learn from Calvinism that God forces upon us His IRRESISTABLE grace.

So, maybe it's not irresistable?
IOW,,,God's grace Can be resisted.

OR
Maybe everyone will be saved...
If God gets what He wants....
Everyone to be saved.

Maybe you could explain Matthew 7 which I posted?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm putting you on ignore

Why?

 

[Hopeful]

Everyone, before they're saved/born again, serves sin because they reject Christ
and trust in their earning of salvation, thereby setting Christ at naught and calling
God a liar. Nevertheless, in spite of all that, and as a testament to God's mercy which
is beyond our understanding, He chose to save some of us - but not because we have
have done anything to deserve it. All any of us can say to God for it should we receive it
are three words: thank you, Father.

Should have included that the answer to your question is definitely yes,
for those He chose to save, but not everyone.

Hope that makes sense

Yes it makes sense, but I was referring to actions taken after acceptance of Christ.
Don't they quit serving/committing sin, (hating God...Matt 6:24), after they come to believe?

Do you think you are one of the few "chosen"?

As nobody knows if they are "called" or not, wouldn't it behoove us to remain obedient to Him till our vessel dies and we face God on the day of judgement?