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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

Is obeying the Lord required for salvation?


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JLB

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Sorry, I misunderstood your point. Only those saved (throughout time) are they whose names were written into the Lamb's book of life. They alone will become born again. God alone knows all of those names

Ths is a completely other point for discussion.


Contextually, “they” and “them” specifically refer to the ones Jesus spoke in parables to.


Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Matthew 13:13-17


Can you see that “they”, and “them“ refers to specific group of people that Jesus was referring to and not “people throughout time” but contextually whom Jesus actually spoke to in parables when He walked the earth.


IOW, the ones who are blind and deaf contextually refer to those Jesus spoke in parables to.


You are trying make those who are blind and deaf and do not understand apply all people’s who are not saved up until the present, because God chose them to be damned, when it only applies to those Jesus spoke in parables to.


Another classic example of taking scripture out of context to fit the Calvinist narrative.


Please stop doing this.




JLB
 

rogerg

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You are trying make those who are blind and deaf and do not understand apply all people’s who are not saved up until the present, because God chose them to be damned, when it only applies to those Jesus spoke in parables to.

Didn't we already go through this or am I remembering something else? Anyway, no, that is not what I said (if I understand your post correctly). What I said was for anyone to gain spiritual understanding (not be spiritually blind and deaf) they must become born again from/by the Holy Spirit, by which they're given a renewed mind. In a prior reply I stated that everyone whose name has been written into the Lamb's book of life, at some point during their lives, will be born again and receive that renewed mind. I went on that regardless of who has been saved to any given point in time, if someone's name is in that book, then they eventually will become born again. So, until the end of time comes, no one but God knows whose names are in it. But those saved come to realize they're in it Millions, and millions of millions, of people are in it, but the number is sill less than the number of those who aren't - I've paraphrased myself and probably didn't use the exact same language or phrasing that I had previously, but effectively it's the same point.
 
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rogerg

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Contextually, “they” and “them” specifically refer to the ones Jesus spoke in parables to.
Can you see that “they”, and “them“ refers to specific group of people that Jesus was referring to and not “people throughout time” but contextually whom Jesus actually spoke to in parables when He walked the earth.


IOW, the ones who are blind and deaf contextually refer to those Jesus spoke in parables to.

Disagree. The whole Bible was written by God using parables and allegory, so it applies to everyone. As I also mentioned previously, the Bible only concerns itself with two groups: those who will be saved, and those who won't be. Everyone falls into one or the other whether they like it or not. Jesus's point was to those would not become saved throughout time. Why? Because their names were not written into the Lamb's book of life, and so they will remain guilty of the sin of Adam (see Rom 5:12 below). God does not owe it to anyone to save them.

[Mat 13:34 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Mat 13:35 KJV]
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Gal 4:22-24 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


You are trying make those who are blind and deaf and do not understand apply all people’s who are not saved up until the present, because God chose them to be damned, when it only applies to those Jesus spoke in parables to.

God did not chose them to be damned. Their judgment is as a result of Adam's, Eve's and Satan's violation of God's command. God gave them warning not to violate His command but they ignored Him and did so anyway.

[Rom 5:12 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The "one man" above is Adam. By him, death (spiritual death) passed to all men.
Therefore, and to put it into perspective, of ourselves, no man ever born deserves not to die spiritually - even those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life. That anyone becomes saved is only due to the graciousness and mercy of God. That reality is almost impossible for unsaved man to truly comprehend because they're under and blinded by the law of Satan. Believing him god, they also wrongly believe that his law is God's law. The substance of the law of sin and death is that man should work for their salvation and attempt to justify themselves before God. Even if it's only attempted in the slightest degree it's still sin. Luckily for those saved, that sin has been forgiven.

Please stop doing this.
No way will I not stop saying that Christ alone is the Savior and that we're not - that is my sole rationale. All of my posts start from, and end with Christ as their basis.
 

JLB

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What I said was for anyone to gain spiritual understanding (not be spiritually blind and deaf) they must become born again from/by the Holy Spirit, by which they're given a renewed mind.

I agree with this, except… the renewing or restoration of the mind is a process, by which we become involved.


Of course this begins to take place after we are born again.


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


Transformation takes place in relation to our mind being renewed, in which we are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.


This requires us to be set apart, or consecrated from the world unto God. Fasting, praying, studying to show ourselves approved unto God.

Spiritual growth and maturity are a process.



Where we seem to disagree, is you believe being born again and being saved by believing the Gospel occur at different times nd are different events in our life. (Correct me if I misunderstand you)


I believe we are born again, saved, regenerated when we hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the Gospel truth.






JLB
 

rogerg

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Transformation takes place in relation to our mind being renewed, in which we are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.

I'm not sure I would say it in that way but I'll think about it further.
This requires us to be set apart, or consecrated from the world unto God. Fasting, praying, studying to show ourselves approved unto God.

I don't understand what you mean by "set apart or consecrated from the world"? Please clarify.
My understanding is that God moves within us to will and to do of His good pleasure, and the Holy Spirit leads us into truth. With those in mind, I think God uses our prayers and studying as vehicles for our edification.

Where we seem to disagree, is you believe being born again and being saved by believing the Gospel occur at different times nd are different events in our life. (Correct me if I misunderstand you)


I believe we are born again, saved, regenerated when we hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the Gospel truth.
Yes, we disagree in those things. I believe what you've mentioned is a result of being born again not its cause. I think you believe the reverse. I think the "hearing" that is at issue is spiritual hearing, not physical hearing. To hear spiritually, one must first be born again -- given ears that can hear. Please observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Gal 5:23 KJV]
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

As the above instructs us, faith (among other things) comes to us as the fruit of the Spirit. So therefore, until and unless one first becomes indwelt by the Spirit (born again), it is impossible to obtain that faith. And even by your standard (as I understand it), faith is a prerequisite to everything else associated to salvation; that is, you believe faith in Christ must first be established by each person of themselves, by which they become saved, and from which, all other attributes follow.

I believe we are born again, saved, regenerated when we hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the Gospel truth.
Well a lot of people "hear the Gospel" and yet remain unsaved. Please notice that even those who actually walked with Christ, saw Him and His miracles first hand, yet were unable to believe. Why was that? Please observe:

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Again, to hear and to believe must first be given by the Holy Spirit. As shown by the above, not all receive it.

If I've misunderstood your point of view, please let me know.
 

wondering

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Yes it makes sense, but I was referring to actions taken after acceptance of Christ.
Don't they quit serving/committing sin, (hating God...Matt 6:24), after they come to believe?

Do you think you are one of the few "chosen"?

As nobody knows if they are "called" or not, wouldn't it behoove us to remain obedient to Him till our vessel dies and we face God on the day of judgement?
Many are called but few are chosen.
All are called because God has revealed Himself to mankind and because He desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of Him.

The few that are chosen will be chosen if they are wearing the proper attire, which is Jesus, as Jesus explains in the parable of the Wedding Banquet.

Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
It's up to the person to give an answer.
 

JLB

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I don't understand what you mean by "set apart or consecrated from the world"? Please clarify.

Separating, or consecrating ourselves unto God as holy, being separate or set apart from the world; from ungodly people and activities.


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


This is a choice that each born again, Christian must make, each day.


  • I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God,

  • And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,

Renewing our mind is contingent upon us obeying the admonition to “not be conformed to this world”.


When we put godly sights and sounds into our mind it STIMULATES the mind to dwell of holy godly things, producing godly thoughts.


Watching ungodly things and listening to unholy things poisenes our mind with the things of this world, so that our mind dwells on these unrighteous worldly impulses, producing ungodly thoughts, which leads to sinful words and actions.




JLB
 

wondering

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rogerg

You repeatedly say that you believe Jesus saves and we do not save ourselves..
As if some of us think we could.

How do YOU think "we" can save ourselves??
What do you mean by this?

we = those of us that believe in free will.
 

JLB

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How do YOU think "we" can save ourselves??
What do you mean by this?

I think we can cooperate with the Lord by obeying His Gospel, then once we are saved we take heed (obey) His teachings, so we are walking in love.


Paul says it this way --

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

  • in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


We all know what happens to those Christians who hate their brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB
 

wondering

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I think we can cooperate with the Lord by obeying His Gospel, then once we are saved we take heed (obey) His teachings, so we are walking in love.


Paul says it this way --

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

  • in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


We all know what happens to those Christians who hate their brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB
Agree.

This comes to mind:
John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
 

wondering

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In other words, you believe faith brings salvation. I believe salvation brings faith
Can it be almost simultaneously?

When I looked for God, He replied to my need and spoke to my heart.

Did I have faith already?
Why seek help from someone you do not trust?
Faith includes trust.

Was I saved already?
We're told that if we call on the name of the Lord we will be saved.

Maybe it's all one action.
 

wondering

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Question is, who do you believe it is initiated by? Yourself, or God?
If yourself, then in effect, you are trusting in yourself for salvation - by your actions.
God is the initiator.
I've posted Romans 1:19 many times.
God reveals Himself...
Jesus, who is God , draws all to Himself.

So we know about God.
Then we respond at some point in time.

Isn't it the response we give that makes the difference?
 

rogerg

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sn't it the response we give that makes the difference?
what do you mean by "makes the difference". If someone obtains faith from God as a gift(free), then our
desire and actions henceforth would be to grow in it full steam ahead, pedal to the metal- we will have no desire whatsoever to do otherwise - but it is really God who is leading us. The thought of any other alternative, or in following any other gospel, will become absurd to us because we will know they are counterfeit.
 

wondering

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what do you mean by "makes the difference". If someone obtains faith from God as a gift(free), then our
desire and actions henceforth would be to grow in it full steam ahead, pedal to the metal- we will have no desire whatsoever to do otherwise - but it is really God who is leading us. The thought of any other alternative, or in following any other gospel, will become absurd to us because we will know they are counterfeit.
I mean that our response to God makes the difference as to the state of our salvation.
God freely gives us salvation if we respond Yes to His calling. Choose this day whom you will serve. Jesus wanted to save His brethren in Jerusalem but they were not willing.

We have to be willing to receive the free gift of salvation.

After salvation we do what you said...the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding and obedience.

As Jesus said in John, we can do nothing without Him.

Tomorrow. 1.20 am here
 

rogerg

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I mean that our response to God makes the difference as to the state of our salvation.
God freely gives us salvation if we respond Yes to His calling. Choose this day whom you will serve. Jesus wanted to save His brethren in Jerusalem but they were not willing.

We have to be willing to receive the free gift of salvation.

After salvation we do what you said...the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding and obedience.

As Jesus said in John, we can do nothing without Him.
As you would expect from our previous conversations, I completely disagree with and reject what you've posted
 

kiwidan

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Does anyone know how many commandments Jesus gave in the NT. I think Jesus told his followers they should do more than the law given to moses. Lol. Are they commandments or more lets say guidelines. But i say unto you pray for your enemies, as example, he didnt say a new command i give you.

If im to follow Jesus example and everything he said perfectly to be saved then im doomed.
 
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wondering

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As you would expect from our previous conversations, I completely disagree with and reject what you've posted
What do you disagree with?
Everything I posted is straight out of scripture.

I'll post it again:

I mean that our response to God makes the difference as to the state of our salvation.
Romans 10:9
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Acts 16:31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,





God freely gives us salvation if we respond Yes to His calling. Choose this day whom you will serve. Jesus wanted to save His brethren in Jerusalem but they were not willing.
Deuteronomy 30:19
...choose life in order that you may live...

Joshua 24:15
Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...

1 Peter 5:2
shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, according to the will of God.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

1 Chronicles 29:9
Then the people rejoiced because they had given willingly, for with a whole heart they had offered freely to the Lord.

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Matthew 23:37
I wanted to gather your children together......., but you were unwilling.



We have to be willing to receive the free gift of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,




After salvation we do what you said...the Holy Spirit guides us into understanding and obedience.
John 14:15

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?




As Jesus said in John, we can do nothing without Him.

John 15:5
...apart from Me, you can do nothing."

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.



(thought I'd try a little carpet bombing myself - there's much more of course).
 

wondering

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Does anyone know how many commandments Jesus gave in the NT. I think Jesus told his followers they should do more than the law given to moses. Lol. Are they commandments or more lets say guidelines. But i say unto you pray for your enemies, as example, he didnt say a new command i give you.

If im to follow Jesus example and everything he said perfectly to be saved then im doomed.
Everything Jesus said to do is a commandment.

However, the OFFICIAL commandments were two:
Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus said a New Command I Give You because if you follow the Two Great Commandments, you are, in effect, following all 10.

We should do more than the law states because we are to do with the heart and not by rote - or action ONLY.
God looks for a good heart that is willing to obey Him as best as possible.

No one who does his best and is sorry for his sins will be doomed.
John 3:16
 
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