Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[Randy]

If I've understood your point correctly (and I might not have), when someone becomes born again with/by the Holy Spirit, they are not immediately imbued will all spiritual wisdom. It is a continual process, but one that is directed by God who leads them into greater and greater (correct) spiritual knowledge and wisdom, which knowledge and wisdom conforms to, agrees with, and is subjective to, the Gospel of Christ.
The Holy Spirit leads into recognizing true and correct spiritual doctrine in order to serve as a basis for their "choices". Nevertheless, spiritual choices are not what saves someone (if that's what you're alluding to) -- only God can save.
As I'm not exactly sure how you're using the word "choices" I may have misunderstood your point. If so, please let me know - thanks

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

My point is as "Jesus" stated:
Remain in me and I will remain IN you.

That is a choice for obedience. To remain faithful to Jesus and remain in His love.

I would only agree that one born again can not be deceived away from Jesus.

What saves someone is faith in Jesus and obeying His commands. As in doing the Fathers will.
That is a choice made.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Therefore obedience and faith in Jesus are required for salvation.

In regard to the gift given.
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him


You know we are not free to sin.

Are you stating we don't need to be obedient or those in Christ will be obedient?

 

[rogerg]

Don't make it overly difficult, Brother. If someone was predestined as in, they have no choice, that is erroneous. Our life here on earth is all about free will. God does not violate free will and will never force Himself upon anyone. Ye have not because ye ask not...

Must be nice to be able to make yourself judge and jury.

Our life here on earth is all about free will. God does not violate free will and will never force Himself upon anyone. Ye have not because ye ask not...

Really? How would you then understand this?

[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

and

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Heard and learned not of themselves but of the Father

3 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”.../

So clearly the idea is to press in and grow. That, the Lord will reward of you. The Lord will also reward you for not sinning and obeying Him in all He has said.

So there first has to be a "revelation" of Christ. Meaning, that to those to whom it is revealed they are recipients not initiators. And until that occurs, none of the rest is possible.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.../

Well, there it is right there. Did you see the "not of the will of man but of God" part? So, it is NOT by man but by God. Pretty clear, right - man cannot contribute to it in any way.

The way I understand it, there are four levels of relationship with God. Servant, Friend, Sons, Brides. The first three we decide to press in for and the 4th one, the Bride...Jesus decides that one. So it sounds like there is plenty of room for improvement and promotions within the Kingdom of God. It all depends upon our will, our choices.

Everyone is saved in only one way: their sin has been remitted by Christ; everyone receives the same blessing: eternal life.

Should we believe that we must contribute something, anything, to it, then we remain under the curse of law and it is evident that no one is justified before God by works

 

[rogerg]

What saves someone is faith in Jesus and obeying His commands. As in doing the Fathers will.
That is a choice made.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Our faith is a gift from God given because of what Christ accomplished not ourselves:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Nothing can save anyone other than if God has chosen them for salvation. Everything else would be a work on our part for salvation, and we can never be saved by that, otherwise, we make ourselves co-saviors with Christ and by so doing, take away Christ's glory.

 

[Edward]

Must be nice to be able to make yourself judge and jury.


Really? How would you then understand this?

[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

and

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Heard and learned not of themselves but of the Father

So there first has to be a "revelation" of Christ. Meaning, that to those to whom it is revealed they are recipients not initiators. And until that occurs, none of the rest is possible.


Well, there it is right there. Did you see the "not of the will of man but of God" part? So, it is NOT by man but by God. Pretty clear, right - man cannot contribute to it in any way.

Everyone is saved in only one way: their sin has been remitted by Christ; everyone receives the same blessing: eternal life.

Should we believe that we must contribute something, anything, to it, then we remain under the curse of law and it is evident that no one is justified before God by works

Really? So there's not really any free will? Ok for the sake of discussion let's say that is so for the moment...and with that in mind, please tell me what this verse means, ok?

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

You see? I don't get it. If we can't choose to follow God cuz that's only if He draws you, then why is He telling us to choose here, that we may live...??

 

[Randy]

Our faith is a gift from God given because of what Christ accomplished not ourselves:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Nothing can save anyone other than if God has chosen them for salvation. Everything else would be a work on our part for salvation, and we can never be saved by that, otherwise, we make ourselves co-saviors with Christ and by so doing, take away Christ's glory.

Well I also read
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

When I was very young I also believed in Santa Claus. Was that faith from God? Though I never worshiped nor prayed to Santa. I was also steered to Jesus by my Mother. My mother prayed with me and as I grew older I prayed on my own. Jesus responded to my faith in Him. So I don't state I was prechosen. I state as far back as my memory goes I have believed and loved Him.

Jesus would state all are taught by God as in those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him.

I will remain freewill as in choices made.

Who one follows/serves is your choice to make.

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

 

[rogerg]

Really? So there's not really any free will? Ok for the sake of discussion let's say that is so for the moment...and with that in mind, please tell me what this verse means, ok?

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

You see? I don't get it. If we can't choose to follow God cuz that's only if He draws you, then why is He telling us to choose here, that we may live...??

God presented the option, but because of Satan's hold over mankind, they/we are blinded, unable to choose correctly.
Even after having witnessed God's power first hand in the OT, they still chose to ignore Him. The same is true even until today: unless God intervenes (draws us) on an individual basis, our (their) eyes will remain shut and hearts will not understand.
Also, and I think this important, In God's new covenant He informs us that He Himself will change our minds and our hearts - for those whom He has chosen. The rest will remain blind.

[Isa 44:18 KJV]
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; [and] their hearts, that they cannot understand.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[rogerg]

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Disagree. Hearing comes by the word of God not from ourselves. Christ is that word of God, so to be able to hear comes from Him. In other words, Christ gives spiritual ears that can hear which we receive after we become born again.

[Rom 10:17 KJV]
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[Rev 19:13 KJV]
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

[JLB]

Hearing comes by the word of God not from ourselves. Christ is that word of God, so to be able to hear comes from Him. In other words, Christ gives spiritual ears that can hear which we receive after we become born again.

Hearing comes by the word; the Gospel message being preached.

Can you hear a message that isn’t preached?

• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

This is the point Paul is making.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg

499
501

You never answered to my above posts.

Do you have me on ignore?
Do you find it too difficult to reply?

If you have me on ignore, I'd appreciate knowing why since I have never disrespected you.

Thanks

 

[rogerg]

Hearing comes by the word; the Gospel message being preached.

Can you hear a message that isn’t preached?

No it can't, but neither can it be heard without spiritual ears - hearing and seeing that has been blessed by God - both being necessary. In the below, their eyes and ears had been blessed to be able to spiritually see and hear. not all were.
If they aren't, preaching until the end of time will make no difference.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it can't, but neither can it be heard without spiritual ears - hearing and seeing that has been blessed by God - both being necessary. In the below, their eyes and ears had been blessed to be able to spiritually see and hear. not all were.
If they aren't, preaching until the end of time will make no difference.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

If a person has spiritual ears,,,they are already born again and do not need to hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it can't, but neither can it be heard without spiritual ears - hearing and seeing that has been blessed by God - both being necessary. In the below, their eyes and ears had been blessed to be able to spiritually see and hear. not all were.
If they aren't, preaching until the end of time will make no difference.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Blessed merely means FOR THE SERVICE TO GOD.

Eyes that are blessed serve God.
Ears that are blessed serve God.

What do YOU think it means?

 

[GodsGrace]

Disagree. Hearing comes by the word of God not from ourselves. Christ is that word of God, so to be able to hear comes from Him. In other words, Christ gives spiritual ears that can hear which we receive after we become born again.

[Rom 10:17 KJV]
17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[Rev 19:13 KJV]
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Remove the word BY from Romans 10:17
It doesn't translate well into our way of speaking.
This is not 1600.

Faith come by hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:17

THE WORD is Jesus.
The Word is the bible.

Jesus does not go around to different churches so that the congregation can hear THE WORD...as what you have stated means.

 

[rogerg]

If a person has spiritual ears,,,they are already born again and do not need to hear.

Just because we become born again, doesn't mean that we stop seeking to learn about Christ through His doctrine.
Instead, our hunger and thirst for understanding grows, not diminishes. To gain that understanding we need ears that can hear and eyes that can see, spiritually speaking. We are instructed to seek, but it is actually God who is moving within us to do of His good pleasure

 

[crossnote]

... clarification requested.
I do not keep God's commandment "you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. "
.... your statement indicates that I am going to hell

Is it your claim the anyone that doesn't "love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. " goes to hell? Is so, have you kept that commandment?

... clarification requested.

No one can keep those laws perfectly (love the Lord with all your heart etc). The Good News is that Another did keep the law in our stead. His name is Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

What do YOU think it means?

That God has given them the ability to see and hear spiritually.

 

[jaybo]

Remove the word BY from Romans 10:17
It doesn't translate well into our way of speaking.
This is not 1600.

Faith come by hearing the word of God.
Romans 10:17

THE WORD is Jesus.
The Word is the bible.

Jesus does not go around to different churches so that the congregation can hear THE WORD...as what you have stated means.

Romans 10:14-17 (NET 2.1), "How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

I prefer this translation as it removes a lot of the ambiguity of the text meaning and there are about 65,000 translators' notes

Again "... faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

 

[Fastfredy0]

No one can keep those laws perfectly (love the Lord with all your heart etc). The Good News is that Another did keep the law in our stead. His name is Jesus.

Agreed.
Someone wrote saying that we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments. I wanted him to clarify the statement which I knew to be false, but I figured what he meant to say and what he wrote were 2 different ideas.

 

[rogerg]

Again "... faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ."

Since faith comes through the preached word of God, then everyone who is preached to must come to faith without exception since, according to the above, it is the preached word that brings faith.

 

[crossnote]

Agreed.
Someone wrote saying that we are not saved if we don't keep all of God's commandments. I wanted him to clarify the statement which I knew to be false, but I figured what he meant to say and what he wrote were 2 different ideas.

Did they ever come back to clarify themselves?