Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[JLB]

I thought you were contradicting yourself with the above two statements. I assume you are saying Judas was born again and then lost his salvation.
Puts a strange twist of song: "Safe in the Arms of Jesus".

Judas was one of His sheep.

He became lost.

Very simple.


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the others in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the others in the age to come.

?????? so Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, is leaving hell to reign with Christ in the age to come? Strange bedfellow to be honored and reign with the King. WOW!

or,

seeing you used the words "WAS PREDESTINED" (of an outcome or course of events determined in advance by divine will); perhaps what God predestines doesn't necessarily happen? The immutable, all knowing God either changed His mind or was surprised and had to change his plan (predestination)?

 

[Hopeful]

Judas was one of His sheep.

He became lost.

Very simple.


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the others in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel JLB

It may have been appropriate at the time the words were spoken, but after Judas turned on the Lord they were annulled.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The one with pedigree going all the way back to Christ.

A self-appointed pedigree that does not stand up to historical scrutiny save by the scrutiny of those that have a vested self-interest.

Definition of Church: The Bible never uses the term visible church or invisible church. But the idea of the visible church versus the invisible church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God. Gotquestions (I like this site as it saves me a lot of typing).

Roman Catholic Doctrine:
When you understand the the mass (in the Mass, "the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner"), the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ (Google) … yeah, right ... this is the infallible, true church.

If you ever want to take over religion you claim to be the infallible representative of God and sole source of scriptural interpretation and able to place tradition on a par with scripture.

 

[crossnote]

If the Church Christ founded apostatized, then the gates of hell prevailed against it and Christ lied.

If a Church claims to be the Church Christ founded, and then apostatizes, it's claims are proven to be bogus.

 

[Walpole]

A self-appointed pedigree that does not stand up to historical scrutiny save by the scrutiny of those that have a vested self-interest.

Definition of Church: The Bible never uses the term visible church or invisible church. But the idea of the visible church versus the invisible church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God. Gotquestions (I like this site as it saves me a lot of typing).

Roman Catholic Doctrine:
When you understand the the mass (in the Mass, "the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner"), the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ (Google) … yeah, right ... this is the infallible, true church.

If you ever want to take over religion you claim to be the infallible representative of God and sole source of scriptural interpretation and able to Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from eaplace tradition on a par with scripture.

Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first.

If I asked you for the same information on your church, from each century, could you provide it? Of course not because you do not have a pedigree going back to the Apostles themselves and from them, to Christ.

Only one Church has the pedigree.

 

[Walpole]

If a Church claims to be the Church Christ founded, and then apostatizes, it's claims are proven to be bogus.

Agreed. It’s a sure sign it is not the Church of Christ.

 

[crossnote]

Funny, I just went onto the Vatican website to browse the Pope's homilies and Wednesday audience catechesis to see if what you say is true. I don't see much of anything on the environment. Here are his speeches from just this year alone...

Homilies ---> https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/homilies/2021.index.html#homilies

Wednesday audiences ---> https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2021.index.html


What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God's Word"?

Pope might make environmental destruction a sin​

RELIGION: Pope might make environmental destruction a sin

In weighing whether to add "sins against ecology" to the Catholic Church's official teachings, Pope Francis is bolstering not only his climate credentials, said religious experts, but also his approach to environmental justice.

www.eenews.net

His Encyclical Letter

Laudato si' (24 May 2015) | Francis

Encyclical Letter Laudato si' of the Holy Father Francis on care for our common home (24 May 2015)

www.vatican.va

​

 

[JLB]

It may have been appropriate at the time the words were spoken, but after Judas turned on the Lord they were annulled.

Agreed.


My point is just because a person is predestined doesn’t mean they are continually saved forever no matter how they live their lives.


Everyone must chose to obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[crossnote]

Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic.

Isn't then 'Roman' Catholic an oxymoron?

I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first.

Impressive, I can provide the same going back 2000 years earlier

If I asked you for the same information on your church, from each century, could you provide it? Of course not because you do not have a pedigree going back to the Apostles themselves and from them, to Christ.

God's Spirit is eternal. That's pedigree enough for me.

Only one Church has the pedigree.

Yes His Body of believers called out from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (Rev 5:9)

 

[Hopeful]

Agreed.


My point is just because a person is predestined doesn’t mean they are continually saved forever no matter how they live their lives.


Everyone must chose to obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9
JLB

We are on the same track here.

 

[rogerg]

Judas was one of His sheep.

He became lost.

Very simple.


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the others in the age to come.

Very simple NOT. It's truly astounding that you would actually believe Judas was one of Christ's sheep - Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas wasn't and that he would betray Him. It is not that "he became lost" (incredible), it is that he was never chosen.
We can unquestionably know this because Jesus in verse 65, the very next verse, said that "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM". In addition to certain of the others, He was also referring to Judas.
If someone is predestinated to salvation by God, nothing, including the person himself, can stop that from happening:

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[Jhn 6:66 KJV]
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Jhn 6:70-71 KJV]
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Randy]

Yes, we have, and I posted the below to you then too. This is it for me

[Mat 13:34-35 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

[Luk 8:10 KJV]
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

"unto you": all of His disciples - any follower of Christ
"others": all those not of His disciples

After Jesus had risen everything was plain to all who were willing to listen.

REV 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

The apostles and many others in Christ kept the Lords commands and gave instructions on living a Godly life in Christ and rebuked wickedness.

Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

A change of heart
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

The disobedient do not know Jesus
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

 

[JLB]

Very simple NOT. It's truly astounding that you would actually believe Judas was one of Christ's sheep

I only brought up the fact because I was agreeing with you.

Here is your statement from post 675.

But the ones he had already given to know the mysteries at that particular moment, were saved/born again.

This stemmed from your usage of the passage in Matthew 13:10-13.


And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Matthew 13:10-13


Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ, in which he followed the Lord for 31/2 years and then became an Apostle.

Judas was sent out with the other Apostles to preach the Gospel to the lost, and empowered by the Spirit to heal the sick and cast our demons, raise the dead and cleanse the lepers.


He was destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Judas then became a traitor; a guide for those who arrested Jesus.


Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


Judas was the the one thing, a follower of Christ, an Apostle, then he became another thing; a traitor, in which he departed from Christ, therefore he did not endure to the end.



Likewise, Saul of Tarsus as a persecutor and hater of the Church, in which he hunted down Christians to have them murdered like Stephen, then he became an Apostle of Jesus Christ; he was one thing, then he became the other; Paul remained faithful to the end, unlike Judas.








JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first.

There is a saying ... the victor writes the history books. Up till the reformation the R.C. church was the victor. The history of the first 300 years is unclear save in the eyes of the R.C. church. But this is irrelevant in my eyes. The church was and is and always will be the 'invisible church' which is defined as all believers.

If I asked you for the same information on your church, from each century, could you provide it? Of course not because you do not have a pedigree going back to the Apostles themselves and from them, to Christ.

I worship the God of Scripture, not the God of Scripture and Tradition. I don't care what man's institutions come up with in regards to theology unless it is formed from the foundation of scripture alone.

Only one Church has the pedigree.

As you define 'pedigree', to this I agree. The R.C.s have a pedigree, though the first 300 years is an imaginary pedigree. (Granted, I have not studied the first 300 years and I am going on the few scraps I've heard about it. It is of no doctrinal importance to me).

 

[Walpole]

Isn't then 'Roman' Catholic an oxymoron?

Yes, it is. It was a term given to the Roman Church by the Anglicans, in an attempt to distinguish the difference between the "Church of England" and the Catholic Church.

Impressive, I can provide the same going back 2000 years earlier

Please prove it. Give me the names of bishops, leaders or preachers from your church, in each century, beginning with the first century and continuing to today. If I wanted to visit an archaeological site such as a church, domus ecclesiae, baptistry or meeting halls from your church from say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted to visit the tombs of martyrs and saints of your church from say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted to see ancient liturgical texts, Scriptures and Psalters from your church dating to say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted read about councils your church held in say the fourth century, where can you direct me?

God's Spirit is eternal. That's pedigree enough for me.


Yes His Body of believers called out from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (Rev 5:9)

Agreed. Now please post evidence your pedigree goes back to Christ and does not have its genesis in the 16th century.

 

[Walpole]

Pope might make environmental destruction a sin​

RELIGION: Pope might make environmental destruction a sin

In weighing whether to add "sins against ecology" to the Catholic Church's official teachings, Pope Francis is bolstering not only his climate credentials, said religious experts, but also his approach to environmental justice.

www.eenews.net

His Encyclical Letter

Laudato si' (24 May 2015) | Francis

Encyclical Letter Laudato si' of the Holy Father Francis on care for our common home (24 May 2015)

www.vatican.va

​

Am I to believe that one document validates your assertion that "the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God's Word"? Surely there should be a plethora of works, speeches and catechesis on the topic to support your assertion. Yes?

Did you scroll through the homilies and audience speeches he gave, which I linked? How many of those harped on the environment?

 

[crossnote]

Please prove it. Give me the names of bishops, leaders or preachers from your church, in each century, beginning with the first century and continuing to today. If I wanted to visit an archaeological site such as a church, domus ecclesiae, baptistry or meeting halls from your church from say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted to visit the tombs of martyrs and saints of your church from say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted to see ancient liturgical texts, Scriptures and Psalters from your church dating to say the fourth century, where would I go to see it? If I wanted read about councils your church held in say the fourth century, where can you direct me?

Your Latin liturgies and it’s hocus pocuses do not impress me. What impresses me are the Old Testament prophets and Hebrew history which well predates your relatively recent usurping thugs.
Even the Council in Acts 15 predates your 4th century Johnny-come-lately.
My pedigree‘s genesis is, …well in Genesis….

Genesis 3:15 KJV
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[crossnote]

Am I to believe that one document validates your assertion that "the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God's Word"? Surely there should be a plethora of works, speeches and catechesis on the topic to support your assertion. Yes?

Did you scroll through the homilies and audience speeches he gave, which I linked? How many of those harped on the environment?

I am reminded…

Matthew 15:14 KJV
[14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

have a nice fall (if you continue on your present course).

 

[Walpole]

Your Latin liturgies and it’s hocus pocuses do not impress me. What impresses me are the Old Testament prophets and Hebrew history which well predates your relatively recent usurping thugs.
Even the Council in Acts 15 predates your 4th century Johnny-come-lately.
My pedigree‘s genesis is, …well in Genesis….

Genesis 3:15 KJV
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In other words, you have no pedigree and history.