Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[JLB]

In Mat. 5:20, Jesus says that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of God. We must understand that in our own strength, we are unable to keep the commandments of God. It is the grace of God that enables us to keep the commandments. John 1:17 says that the law was given through Moses, but grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ. God has given us his grace to live by the Truth.

Amen.


Great post!



Welcome to the Forum.


Glad you are here.


God bless you and your household.




JLB

 

[Walpole]

Do you believe the Church can go apostate, like proclaiming environmental issues rather than proclaiming the Gospel?

Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Hence the Church cannot apostatize.

 

[JLB]

John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

….and not one of them was lost except the son of destruction,


Yes, agreed.


Judas wandered away and become lost.


See Luke 15:4-7 for the principle of His sheep becoming lost.


Something must belong to someone first, for it to become lost.


If I have a gold coin and it becomes lost, then my coin is lost.

See Luke 15:8-10



The Point:

You can’t lose something that isn’t your to begin wth.


Because Jesus said Judas was lost, then He validates Judas was at one time, one of “His sheep” one of Hs own.










JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Hence the Church cannot apostatize.

?

What does one have to do with the other?


Makes no sense.

 

[Walpole]

….and not one of them was lost except the son of destruction,


Yes, agreed.


Judas wandered away and become lost.


See Luke 15:4-7 for the principle of His sheep becoming lost.


Something must belong to someone first, for it to become lost.


If I have a gold coin and it becomes lost, then my coin is lost.

See Luke 15:8-10



The Point:

You can’t lose something that isn’t your to begin wth.


Because Jesus said Judas was lost, then He validates Judas was at one time, one of “His sheep” one of Hs own.










JLB

Good post.

Jesus even explicitly called Judas a sheep...

"Behold, I am sending you [the twelve] out as sheep in the midst of wolves." (Mt. 10:16)

"And Jesus said to them [the twelve], 'You will all fall away, for it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered.'" (Mk 14:27)

 

[Walpole]

?

What does one have to do with the other?


Makes no sense.

Because if the Church apostatized, then the gates of hell would have prevailed over her, making Christ a liar.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Intercessor: One who intercedes

Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition


The Scriptures are full the prayers of intercession of the saints. For example, we have David's in the Psalms...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)

...and St. John's example in Revelation...

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." (Rev. 5:8, KJV)


David invokes those in heaven. St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

I see your point and have not objection to it.

I object if it is said I AM LIMITED EXCLUSIVELY to use an intermediary (a priest, Mary, any person that has died, the church) in order to speak to God or in order to have my sins forgiven or any other purpose.
If Sally wants to pray for me, all the more power to her (or is it me )

 

[Fastfredy0]

We agree that His disciples were born again, regenerated.
Which includes Judas.

….and not one of them was lost except the son of destruction,
Yes, agreed.
Judas wandered away and become lost.

I thought you were contradicting yourself with the above two statements. I assume you are saying Judas was born again and then lost his salvation.
Puts a strange twist of song: "Safe in the Arms of Jesus".

 

[for_his_glory]

Intercessor: One who intercedes

Intercede: To act or interpose in behalf of someone in difficulty or trouble, as by pleading or petition


The Scriptures are full the prayers of intercession of the saints. For example, we have David in the Psalms...

"Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will." (Psalm 103:21)

"Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts." (Psalm 148:1-2)


We also have St. John's example in Revelation...

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." (Rev. 5:8, KJV)


David invokes those in heaven. St. John explicitly describes God receiving prayers from someone other than the primary petitioner in Rev. 5:8. This makes the person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God - by definition - an intercessor.

How can someone laying dead in their grave intercede for us? No one but Jesus has ever ascended up to heaven, John 3:13.

Those scriptures you gave in Psalms do not even mention intercession, but speaks of giving praise to the Lord.

The twenty four elders around the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne as they give praise, glory and honor to God. The crowns they lay down are the crowns of glory as they are the head of worship and praise to God in heaven. The earthly elders or pastor are given a crown of glory as they hold the office of leadership over the members that make up the body of Christ. It is their leadership through the Holy Spirit that helps to teach us about God through his word. Theirs is the greatest judgment for what proceeds out of their mouth, 1 Peter 5:1-5.

The background is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

We have identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

 

[for_his_glory]

In Mat. 5:20, Jesus says that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of God. We must understand that in our own strength, we are unable to keep the commandments of God. It is the grace of God that enables us to keep the commandments. John 1:17 says that the law was given through Moses, but grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ. God has given us his grace to live by the Truth.

Hi Maxim and welcome to CF

Great post, thank you for sharing that with us.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Hence the Church cannot apostatize.

So, what church do you deem is Christ true Church who walk in obedience to His commands and statures?

 

[crossnote]

Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Hence the Church cannot apostatize.

Funny reasoning. I was asking because the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God’s Word. Sounds like he chases the symptoms of a fallen world rather than offers the cure.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see your point and have not objection to it.

I object if it is said I AM LIMITED EXCLUSIVELY to use an intermediary (a priest, Mary, any person that has died, the church) in order to speak to God or in order to have my sins forgiven or any other purpose.
If Sally wants to pray for me, all the more power to her (or is it me )

We ask our Church family to pray for us as a prayer of agreement and not for the forgiveness of our sins that only Jesus can forgive.

 

[crossnote]

Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. Hence the Church cannot apostatize.

Or it shows the Institutionalized Church is not the true Body of Christ because it has apostasized.

 

[for_his_glory]

Seeing the Christ is God, it would be difficult for him to not speak for himself.

We have to remember that Jesus was fully God and fully man while he was here on earth and was also tempted of the devil, but kept telling him "It is written" meaning God already spoke the words as the Prophets wrote in the Talmud/Torah. Jesus could never go above that which God already gave for Him to speak. It's the same just like the rest of us that are warned not to add to or take away from the word of God.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Walpole]

Or it shows the Institutionalized Church is not the true Body of Christ because it has apostasized.

If the Church Christ founded apostatized, then the gates of hell prevailed against it and Christ lied.

 

[Walpole]

So, what church do you deem is Christ true Church who walk in obedience to His commands and statures?

Easy: The one with pedigree going all the way back to Christ.

 

[Walpole]

Funny reasoning. I was asking because the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God’s Word. Sounds like he chases the symptoms of a fallen world rather than offers the cure.

Funny, I just went onto the Vatican website to browse the Pope's homilies and Wednesday audience catechesis to see if what you say is true. I don't see much of anything on the environment. Here are his speeches from just this year alone...

Homilies ---> https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/homilies/2021.index.html#homilies

Wednesday audiences ---> https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2021.index.html


What evidence do you have to support your assertion that "the Pope constantly harps on the environment way more than he proclaims the Gospel or even God's Word"?

 

[Walpole]

How can someone laying dead in their grave intercede for us? No one but Jesus has ever ascended up to heaven, John 3:13.

Jesus is clear that those who are no longer living on earth are still alive:

Mark 12:26-27 ---> ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I thought most Protestants still believed in life after death?

Those scriptures you gave in Psalms do not even mention intercession, but speaks of giving praise to the Lord.

Read them again. David is petitioning those in heaven...


Psalm 103:21 ---> "Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will."

Psalm 148:1-2 ---> "Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts."

Who are the "heavenly hosts", the "angels", those "from the heavens" and those "in the heights above"?


According to Protestantism, David's prayer to the saints in heaven is a sinful act.

The twenty four elders around the throne of God cast their crowns before the throne as they give praise, glory and honor to God. The crowns they lay down are the crowns of glory as they are the head of worship and praise to God in heaven. The earthly elders or pastor are given a crown of glory as they hold the office of leadership over the members that make up the body of Christ. It is their leadership through the Holy Spirit that helps to teach us about God through his word. Theirs is the greatest judgment for what proceeds out of their mouth, 1 Peter 5:1-5.

The background is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

We have identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

Once again, a person presenting and taking the prayers of the primary petitioner to God is - by definition - an intercessor. (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de...on/intercessor)

You haven't addressed St. John's vision of heaven...

Rev 5:8 ---> If all your prayers go directly to God alone, why are angels and saints bringing them (prayers) to Him (God)? (cf. Rev. 5:8)

In other words, why are they serving as intermediaries?

 

[JLB]

Because if the Church apostatized, then the gates of hell would have prevailed over her, making Christ a liar.

A person willing turning away from Christ, and the enemy of the Church over running her are two different things altogether.