Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[Free]

I stated that Thomas was 'confused' for we have a perfect discription of his confusion in that this man 'doubted' that the man 'claiming' to be Christ, was INDEED, Jesus Christ. This man INSISTED that the ONLY way that he WOULD 'believe' that Jesus WAS who He 'claimed' to BE would be to 'SEE' the actual holes in his hands and feet. If this is NOT confusion, (you would 'THINK' that one that had KNOWN Christ would certainly recognize Him WITHOUT 'seeing' the 'holes in His body'. THIS was my meaning about His confusion.

Confusion and doubt are not synonomous.

Now, if this man was THAT confused over the identity of Christ, how difficult would it be for Him to be confused over the 'personage' of Christ AS WELL?

The point just prior toThomas saying to Jesus "My Lord and my God", is the point at which all doubt, and any confusion, is laid aside. That is precisely why he said what he did, he realized who the resurrected Christ was.

I follow your line of 'logic' here, but that is NOT NEEDED to be 'the case'. There are MANY examples throughout The Bible where there IS no clarification offered in response to those that are 'confused'.

Please provide just one other example from the NT of confusion regarding who God is, or any claim to deity of another person, where clarification wasn't provided.

My line of reasoning still stands. Twice we have the disciples worshipping Jesus and once we have one of the disciples calling Jesus his God, with no rebuke from Christ on any of these occassions.

 

[AVBunyan]

My line of reasoning still stands. Twice we have the disciples worshipping Jesus and once we have one of the disciples calling Jesus his God, with no rebuke from Christ on any of these occassions.

I'm with Free here - I believe Jesus would have rebuked them if he wasn't who they said he was.

Look at what happened to John:
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

I'd like to see a resonse to Free's point from anyone - thanks

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Av,

Let me offer a response to your post......

Perhaps Thomas, when confronted with 'the TRUTH' DID recognize God IN His Son. Perhaps, this CONFUSED individual who had JUST denied that the man standing before was INDEED The Christ, upon REALIZING his folly DiD indeed recognize The SPIRIT of God within the Christ that stood before him. And Chirst KNOWING what was 'in his HEART' had NO NEED to rebuke Thomas for it WAS The Spirit which was recognized AS GOD.

And in response to the reference to John. This 'rebuke' of sorts was NOT to the 'worshiping of God' OR 'His Son', it WAS rebuke offered in the 'bowing down to AN ANGEL'. BIG difference my friend.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and guys, BEING an 'agent' of someone ALLOWS them to speak to others AS THE REPRESENTING AGENT. Get it? If God had empowered Christ to DO HIS BIDDING, then in essence, Christ WOULD have taken on the ability to speak FOR God. And in essence, those that spoke TO Him would have essentially been speaking THROUGH Him to GOD THE FATHER.

In other words, those that Christ 'came in contact with' WOULD HAVE been in direct contact WITH GOD through His Spirit that DWELT within His Son. So, in essence ANYTHING spoken to the AGENT would have been as if directly spoken to God Himself.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Perhaps Thomas, when confronted with 'the TRUTH' DID recognize God IN His Son.

2. And in response to the reference to John. This 'rebuke' of sorts was NOT to the 'worshiping of God' OR 'His Son', it WAS rebuke offered in the 'bowing down to AN ANGEL'. BIG difference my friend.

1. That's a big stretch Mec - you are hoping and just wishing that is what Thomas meant - Forget about what you think Thomas meant -what did Thomas say. Again the verse:..."And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". I don't see the Spirit in there.

2. The rebuke was for John worshipping the angel period - I understand this. The angel told John to worship God - The angel did not accept worship - Jesus did accept worship. Jesus never rebuked anybody for worshipping him. If Jesus were not God he would have rebuked his worshippers and told them to..."worship God". He didn't rebuke them because they were...worshipping God.

 

[Rick W]

Yes, there's a lot of "perhaps", speculation, on which the next link, the supposed response to the "perhaps" scenerio is based. Then from that link another speculation with the "would have"s to build to the next link to create a chain of thought far from what had been said.

Perhaps, then this would have happened in which case this would have been.

Perhaps Thomas
DID recognize God
Perhaps, this CONFUSED individual
upon REALIZING his folly
Chirst KNOWING what was 'in his HEART'

If God had empowered
then in essence
Christ WOULD have
would have essentially been
WOULD HAVE been in direct
so in essence ANYTHING

I can't see the surface of Venus. why? Because of cloud cover. Therefore there must be a lot of water on Venus. If then there is a lot of water it follows there would be a lot of vegetation on Venus. And since there's a lot of vegetation there would have to be animal life. Thus, the animal life has a lot to eat therefore the animals would most likely be huge in size, and would have to be much like the dinosaurs we know.

Conclusion:
There's dinosaurs on Venus but I can't see a thing.

 

[Imagican]

Hmmmmm..........

So, there IS blindness to the POINT that my offerings have NO significance? I 'see'.

And GUYS, Christ IS worthy of worship. We have BEEN OVER this time and again. There IS deity IN CHRIST. Not arguing that. But we have ONE statement amid a TON that REFUTES this ONE statement. I have offered them OVER AND OVER again. So, IF the Thomas scenario IS valid, then IT MUST mean 'something' DIFFERENT than what YOU would have me BELIEVE.

For EVERY STATEMENT made BY CHRIST HIMSELF IS that He IS the SON of God. NEVER does He state that He IS God Himself. And no matter HOW you attempt to ALTER the truth by the 'arranging of words', I TRUST IN CHRIST. NOT some 'man-made' doctrine created by a 'folk' that has PROVEN that there is little or NO Spirit within THEM. There is CERTAINLY spirit, but the Holy Spirit of God could NOT dwell within the hearts of those that would MURDER God's children simply over a 'difference of understanding'. PERIOD, AIN'T gonna happen THEN and it AIN'T gonna happen NOW, and it AIN'T gonna happen LATER.

Now there IS a 'spirit' that HAS and WILL CONTINUE to persecute those that follow God through His Son. His SON TOLD US THIS. He warned that to follow HIM would be TO BE persecuted by this 'other spirit'. Anyone recognize that of which I speak? Of course not. For YOUR interpretation would be that it is ''I" that would be 'this spirit', JUST as Christ was falsely accused by the 'religious order' of HIS time.

But, the FUNNY PART is that I offer NO such persecution. I simply point out How WRONG the 'traditional church mentality IS' and am attacked continuous. Why is that folks?

Do you HONESTLY even 'think' that the state of man's heart NOW is ANY better than it was at the time of Christ? Do you honestly think that the 'religion' of Christianity has NOT taken the same path that Hebrews/Jews FOLLOWED? Alas, IMPOSSIBLE for ME to 'MAKE' a blind man SEE. And to BE blind means one MUST be 'void' of The Spirit. For those that DO live IN THE SPIRIT will CERTAINLY recognize when it SPEAKS to them. And if not, then they must NOT know The Spirit.

I have offered NOTHING 'of my own' as so many so often accuse. That YOU ALL are in UNISON just goes to show that Christ and His apostles were RIGHT. There DID come 'others' that ALTERED The Word as offered and turned it INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT than the Word of God. And not ONLY did this HAPPEN, but to such a degree that NOW there be FEWER yet that can even 'see' what has happened.

You will NOT be innocent however. For you HAVE been 'given The Word'. So IF one chooses to follow that which is NOT truth, then that ONE will CERTAINLY be held accountable. And IF this ONE chooses to remain blind to the VERY basics, then they CANNOT follow the truth TO THE FATHER through His Son. Impossible, for the 'details' of truth CANNOT be obtained until FIRST accepting and learning the basics.

There ARE spirits MANY. There ARE gods MANY. Which gods do YOU follow and which spirit is the ONE that leads you? These are the questions that CAN make ALL the difference in the WORLD.

Do you LOVE your car MORE than the bum walking down the road pushing his shopping cart? Do you LOVE your TV more than the child molester in PRISON. How about this, do you LOVE YOURSELF more than the 'faggot' lying in the hospital dying of AIDS? See it is THIS 'type' of question that ONE MUST ANSWER in order to DETERMINE 'which god' it is that they FOLLOW. For anything CLOSE to an answer of YES PROVES that The Spirit dwells NOT in the hearts of those that DO NOT UNDERSTAND LOVE.

And HOW COULD THIS BE? How could SO many that seem to THINK that they KNOW SO MUCH be SO blind to The Truth? Would you REALLY like to know? Doubt it, but here goes; Because a long long time ago The Spirit was hijacked by some REALLY evil people. And they tortured and murdered ALMOST everyone that refused to FOLLOW THEM.

Eventually God saw FIT to 'bring them down', destroy their 'strangle-hold' in the KNOWN world. Then people once again were FREE to openly worship God. But what did they DO? They took MOST of the 'bogus teaching' of these evil people and carried it RIGHT over into their NEW 'religion'. Instead of the 'individuals' being concerned with the RESPONSIBILITY of developing their OWN relationship with God, they instead chose to follow 'different' men ONCE AGAIN. Men that made PROMISES that they were UNABLE to deliver. Promises of Salvation through god's and saviors of their OWN design.

And guess where we find ourselves RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT. Arguing about the identity of Christ. EVEN after being TOLD, BY CHRIST, EXACTLY Who He IS, there are still those that would choose to follow a 'christ' created by an 'unholy' people. Shame shame my brothers and sisters. For the day WILL come when every knee SHALL bow to The Son of God, OUR KING. And what will you say THEN when there is NO longer ANY room for argument. When your heart lays bare and there ARE no SECRETS or ability to lie, to others or even yourself? You have HAD FAIR WARNING. By God, Christ, the apostles and even lowly worms such as myself.

Blessings brothers and sisters,

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

There IS deity IN CHRIST. Not arguing that. But we have ONE statement amid a TON that REFUTES this ONE statement. I have offered them OVER AND OVER again.

I guess I missed them - please give me one statement that refutes Thomas' statement that Christ is God, or...let's say ....
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
or....
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
or...
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Mec - do you really believe that the greatest Puritan writers, missionaries, missionaries, and evangelists are wrong on the doctrine of the deity of Christ while you are right? :o

I don't follow men (but I sure do listen to them) but...but...by their fruits ye shall know them and the above men have sure proven themselves wothy of being listened to in this area.

God bless

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

The questions asked in the op poll, seem to be addressed in First John. What I have found in these short epistles seems to be directed at questions about the Trinity. I quote the following verses to show that John was claiming that yes, the Trinity exist, however, believing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah is what is necessary to get on Gods good side.


1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].


1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [/b]

Again, my conclusion is that John is saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Holy Trinity, however, to be saved one must believe in the Son. Not necessarily that Jesus is God.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

First of all, IF you were a Catholic you HAD to 'believe' in 'trinity' or you wouldn't have been considered a Catholic.

I don't know. I was 10 or 12. I didn't know anything except confession and communion.

Secondly, you wrote;

Christ will be our God and the high priest in the service of God. As Paul said, "he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17 The glory of God will be the light and the Lamb will be the lamp of the light.

Just offering this goes to show that God did NOT 'make' Himself ANYTHING except our Creator. Yet you state that Christ HAD TO BE MADE........... Don't you 'get it'?

Not really.

There MUST be a Father for there to BE a Son. There CANNOT be a 'son' without there FIRST being a father. In order to 'believe' in 'trinity' one MUST ignore the implications of the relationship of, and even the WORD son itself, as it pertains to a 'father'. WHY? For the simple sake of a 'man-made' doctrine?

Look at ALL the scripture one is FORCED to ignore or alter in order to 'justify' this 'trinity'. When ALL one NEED do is accept what has been offered by God and His Son Themselves.

NOT ONCE in ALL of scripture did ANYONE even 'mention' a 'trinity'. Yet men came along and 'created' this 'holy trinity' and taught it as if it WERE something out of The Word itself. That ought to be warning enough.

It's a concept. You could say the 1st, 2nd and 3rd person are one person. I'd say the Son was the temple in whom God was pleased to dwell. Christ is our master. God is our Father.

God OFFERED His ONLY begotten Son as sacrifice for our sins. Christ willingly and obdiently followed the will of His Father and offered HIS LIFE for the sake of ours.

How do you contend with scripture that purposely SHOWS that Christ is The SON of God rather than God Himself? How do you explain away statements made by Christ Himself that STATE that God IS 'greater than He'? That ALL He possessed was GIVEN Him BY GOD? That there ARE things that HE DOES NOT KNOW AND ONLY THE FATHER DOES? And things like, "My Father, why hath thou forsaken me''? Must be tough ones to answer from a 'trinitarian' point of view.

It is. Unless you already have a pretty good understanding. I'd say something like the 2nd person became one of us.

I NEED NO 'man-made' doctrine to KNOW God through His Son. All I NEED do is accept what has been offered through scripture as revealed through The Spirit. And HOW is this EVEN possible if I 'create' a 'spirit' of my OWN?

In other words, I can 'call' Christ ANYTHING of my choosing. I can "MAKE" Him ANYTHING that I choose to 'make' Him. The problem is; IF I DO SO, I have created a 'different' Christ than that which IS The Son of God.

That's true. You can read the Bible and find the knowledge of who he was as it was revealed to Peter and those words are the foundation of the gospel.

So Mark, follow this one:

Simply ACCEPT the 'simplicity' that IS Christ Jesus. Allow Him into your heart and you will NEED no 'man-made' doctrine in order to develope a PERSONAL relationship with God through His Son. Refusing such simplicity is to rely on 'man's limited understanding' and self-will rather than the will of God and HIS understanding.

Christ IS The Son of God. Simple huh? God IS The Father of Christ. This is simple TOO huh? Anything that one 'chooses' to 'add' to this is simply that; something 'added' by man to an understanding ALREADY completely revealed to those that will heed His understanding through the Words offered by Jesus Christ.

Understanding his teaching isn't adding to his words. Your concept is quite Greek. It's probably the way the ancient Greeks understood Paul. I mean a god having offspring by a mortal. It's Ok to an extent but it probably won't let you receive the spiritual gifts. The fact is some are given to know more than others and it allows us to achieve a level of faith equal to the Apostles. I'm not boasting. And I'm not trying to grab a seat at the head of the table. I'm just saying it is quite interesting. You have a Greek concept. Catholics seem to have a Hindu concept. I doubt any of you know why.

Now, WHY do you suppose that it took over a HUNDRED years AFTER Christ's visit to this earth for "MAN" to 'create' this 'trinity'? Why were the FIRST believers in Christ TOTALLY unaware of this 'doctrine'? And have read the WARNINGS given by Paul and OTHER apostles that it WOULD happen that there would be thoset that WOULD teach 'another doctrine' to the demise of those that would choose to 'follow THEM'? So, you've ALREADY been warned.

Some Catholic traditions do seem to invite sin. I guess it is God's will. But I like the spirit that is in the church and I like their devotion to God. Of course they don't listen but then who does?

 

[Free]

Again, my conclusion is that John is saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Holy Trinity, however, to be saved one must believe in the Son. Not necessarily that Jesus is God.

And again: It necessarily follows then that JW's, Mormons, and host of others are Christians, despite their vastly different, contradictory Christologies.

For EVERY STATEMENT made BY CHRIST HIMSELF IS that He IS the SON of God. NEVER does He state that He IS God Himself.

The very claim that he is the Son of God does make him equal with the Father, being in nature God. Even the Jews recognized this and tried to stone him for it.

But, the FUNNY PART is that I offer NO such persecution. I simply point out How WRONG the 'traditional church mentality IS' and am attacked continuous. Why is that folks?

Because your theology is heretical, it is not of the faith which we are exhorted to defend. No one is attacking you, we are just pointing out your grave error.

That's all that's worth addressing.

 

[MarkT]

Whoever hears the words of God is of God. The Jews heard him say he was God or equal to God - he didn't say that. He said he came forth and proceeded from God. He said he was the Son of God. Therefore, whoever hears Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God is of God.

This discussion seems to be about words Jesus never said. For that reason it is off path. It is true God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36 He exalted him as Leader and Saviour Acts 5:31 God raised the Lord and he will also raise us up 1 Cor. 6:14 God put all things in subjection under his feet 1 Cor 15:27 and it says, "it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him", referring to God.

So it depends on what you mean. Do you mean before or after he was glorified? But even so, it misses the mark. It takes us off path. It ignores the teachings of God. If you want to imitate Christ, then glorify God. Pray to the Father, the only true God. Hear the Lord, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:1,2,3

 

[Free]

The Jews heard him say he was God or equal to God - he didn't say that.

So then you have two choices: 1) Jesus mislead them into believing he was God, or 2) Jesus' claim to be the Son of God really meant that he was equal to the Father, which the Jews understood perfectly well.

Do you mean before or after he was glorified?

It doesn't matter. If Christ was God after he was glorified, he must have been God also before he was glorified. The NT is clear that Jesus has always been God.

 

[MarkT]

So then you have two choices: 1) Jesus mislead them into believing he was God, or 2) Jesus' claim to be the Son of God really meant that he was equal to the Father, which the Jews understood perfectly well.

The truth is God didn't let the Jews hear the words of God because they were not his children. Jesus said, "He who is of God, hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." John 8:47 It's a fact that the children of the devil do not hear the words of God.

The Jews who accused him were a 'brood of vipers'. Jesus said, 'you are of your father the devil', referring to the serpent of old. Jesus denied the charge of blasphemy. It's all there in John 10:34-36. Jesus was not making himself God or equal to God. Therefore he denied the charge.

 

[MarkT]

It doesn't matter. If Christ was God after he was glorified, he must have been God also before he was glorified. The NT is clear that Jesus has always been God.

God can't die. The Word of God was always God but you have to get the spritual sense of it. Jesus was crucified on the cross. He died for our sins. He was raised from the dead by God and God glorified him and he sat down at the right hand of God.

 

[Free]

The truth is God didn't let the Jews hear the words of God because they were not his children. Jesus said, "He who is of God, hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." John 8:47 It's a fact that the children of the devil do not hear the words of God.

The Jews who accused him were a 'brood of vipers'. Jesus said, 'you are of your father the devil', referring to the serpent of old. Jesus denied the charge of blasphemy. It's all there in John 10:34-36. Jesus was not making himself God or equal to God. Therefore he denied the charge.

That doesn't address the points.

God can't die. The Word of God was always God but you have to get the spritual sense of it. Jesus was crucified on the cross. He died for our sins. He was raised from the dead by God and God glorified him and he sat down at the right hand of God.

What are you getting at? Would it be clearer if I said that the Christ was always God?

 

[Solo]

God can't die. The Word of God was always God but you have to get the spritual sense of it. Jesus was crucified on the cross. He died for our sins. He was raised from the dead by God and God glorified him and he sat down at the right hand of God.

When Jesus the man died, what happened to Jesus the Spirit?

 

[MarkT]

That doesn't address the points.

What will you say then when Jesus returns? 'Lord, we figured the devil was right. You did say you were God or equal to God. Didn't you? Even the devil's children will testify that you said you were God. We figured they were right.'

No. They accused him falsely. You figured wrong!

 

[jgredline]

What will you say then when Jesus returns? 'Lord, we figured the devil was right. You did say you were God or equal to God. Didn't you? Even the devil's children will testify that you said you were God. We figured they were right.'

Well, no, they were liars so you figured wrong.

Bundy
What in the world do u mean?

 

[stranger]

John Owen (the puritan) said there are people who don't know that they are Christians. Coming from him that is quite a statement. Testimonies are useful and surprising in regard to what people believe at the point of what they recognise as salvation. Very little faith is needed as tiny as a mustard seed. I would rather know nothing about doctrine and be saved than know the great doctrines of salvation and be a whitewashed wall.